Obama as a war criminal?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Hoss, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. Hoss

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    12,050
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    398
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Eastern town
    Yeah I know, you think I've lost my marbles but stay with me on this.

    If George W. Bush is considered a war criminal by many because of Afghanistan & Iraq, does Barack Obama fall under the same category because he has stepped up action in Afghanistan and pushed us into Pakistan while heavily embroiling the U.S. in Egypt (and perhaps soon in even more Middle East countries) ?

    For what it's worth, a Google search at Google brings up many hits with
    Obama War Criminal

    some are well written and well argued, others clearly aren't. What's your take, is President Obama in that league already or fast approaching it?
     
  2. NYCdude

    NYCdude Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2008
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Bush is being considered a War Criminal because of Iraq, not Afghanistan. He lied to the American people to go to war with Iraq, a war that resulted in the death of 100,000 Iraqi civilians. So I don't get the comparison. If you google search Obama is a racist, I'm sure some well-written arguments will come up. Triumph of the Will is well argued, doesn't make Hitler right.
     
  3. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,280
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    I couldn't agree more. I think the world may see Bush as a war criminal because of the Zeal to torture "enemy combatants". The world is correct.
     
  4. B_Alt33

    B_Alt33 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY
    Bush was a war criminal. If I understand politics which I do more than most but the president is not allowed to go to war without the consent of both Congress and House. On that note I do believe that there was an overwhelming vote on both sides to allow the Bush Administration to go to war with Iraq and they all read the same information. So if there was such poor information or as state above lies then why was there such support.

    HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

    Anyhow I for one this it was the right thing to do difference is they just should have leveled both Afganistan and Iraq and started over. This has gone on way to long.
     
  5. SilverTrain

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    4,582
    Albums:
    8
    Likes Received:
    404
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Thirded. With the caveat that, in retrospect it grows ever clearer that Cheney was the driving force behind the rush to war, as well as the torturing, the wiretapping, etc. Nevertheless, whether Bush was a war zealot himself, or merely duped into dubious action by his colleagues, his culpability is a large.
     
  6. B_Alt33

    B_Alt33 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY
    So would you endorse torture if say someone was holding one of your family members hostage and threatening to kill them? Or would you try talking politely and offering cup cakes with tea. Please get over the torture shit people in govt at that level know more that any of us would ever want to know and with that information they are forced to make a choice. Most of us would never even want to think about authorizing war, or torture or pushing that nuclear button. Bush and Cheney did what they felt was right along with the rest of the congress and house.

    History will be the only judge of weather it was right or wrong not the people on this board.
     
  7. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,280
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    Torture was illegal when Bush Cheney ordered it. It still is. It also violated International Treaties of which the United States was a signator. I will not "get over" our elected officials ignoring domestic and international laws and treaties. Regardless, it's been shown that torture does not work to get reliable, actionable intelligence.
     
  8. Jason

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Messages:
    9,917
    Likes Received:
    638
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    London (GB)
    Within the UK there is broad public acceptance that the UK's involvement in the Iraq war was illegal. The deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg actually called it an illegal war.

    Broad issues around the Iraq war are presently being looked at by the Chilcot Inquiry. The witness stage is now complete and the inquiry will presumably report reasonably soon, though there is no date. Tony Blair appeared before the inquiry and was asked about the information he presented to the cabinet and to parliament about the justification for war (that the UK was under threat) and the legality of the war (that it was legal). He did answer these points, but his answers were nuanced and complex. It is hard to get away from an overview that he thought the war was right (even a personal duty on him from God), that he agreed with Bush to go ahead, and that this justified the pressure that was put on the attorney general to find the war legal and the wrong information he presented to cabinet and parliament. The Chilcot Inquiry is not ruling on Blair's innocence or guilt, but it may well give a result that will encorage others to take forward the issue of Blair's innocence or guilt in a court. It is possible that he may be charged with war crimes and tried either in the UK or in another jurisdiction. Already there are some countries he will not visit because of the possibility of being arrested.

    There is a separate issue around the strange death of David Kelly, the weapons inspector who in the run up to the Iraq war warned the PM that there was not evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. His death has been recorded as a suicide. If this is the case then it appears to reflect the sanity-breaking pressure he was put under by the government and by Blair. The case that he was murdered has been made many times (including by an MP in a book). There must be a significant possibility that his death was indeed a murder - if so we are presumably looking at a government-authorised murder. If this is the case and is proved then Blair would surely be facing a murder charge.

    Today we've heard from an IMF report that the last Labour government of Brown (and particularly Ed Balls) put pressure on IMF officials, including intimidation of those officials, in order to tone down their report on the UK economy. This enabled Labour to have their pre-election give-away budget which bought them some seats in the election. It is possible that a result of this report will be some form of prosecution of senior people (Brown and Balls) for the criminal offense of intimidation.

    It hasn't happened yet but the courts ruling on the conduct of senior members of the last government including Blair, Brown and Balls does seem possible.
     
  9. B_Alt33

    B_Alt33 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY
    Ed Balls sorry I am still laughing. Imagine that name as a kid.
    Anyhow once that "trial" is over and nothing is found to be illegal can we all stop this crap and move on?

    Industrilize torture is considered under the Geneva Convention and governed by such. And only apply to those that are uniformed military combatants. Running around with a towel on their head and a dress with an AK is not a uniformed or organized military supported or recognized by the Geneva Convention or any other government.

    So torture away cut their balls off dress them in womens clothes make them suck each other I could care less just make sure non of them ever attack the US again.

    Personally if they got on a plane I was on and tried their shit torture would be a welcomed opportunity from what I would do.
     
  10. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,280
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    Yes the Bush Administration invented the term "enemy combatant" to try and avoid the Geneva Convention's proscription of torture. However the following from the Geneva Convention covers Bush's error:

    Article 4 of the Geneva Convention defines the categories of persons who may be considered as "prisoners of war." According to Article 5, "should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

    No competent tribunal has adjudicated this matter.

    And you have shown where you are coming from by referring to "towels on their heads". Referring to someone as a raghead or towelhead is consdiered an "ethnic slur" against Arabs, Indian Sikhs and some other peoples, denigrating them for wearing traditional headdress such as turbans or keffiyehs.
     
    #10 Industrialsize, Feb 17, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  11. B_24065

    B_24065 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    1
    No Obama is perfect. Whatever he does is Holy and good, no matter if GWB did the same.
     
  12. D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Messages:
    808
    Likes Received:
    0

    he did not lie his decision was based on information he was given congress backed him up. most of those 100,000 were killed by by felow Iraqi citizens and insurgents not US forces.
     
  13. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,280
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    I guess you haven't read Donald Rumsfeld's latest book.In it he declassifies an intelligence memo that says that Sadaam Hussein did not have any WMD's nor the capacity to produce them. Bush/Cheney knew this. They lied.
     
  14. B_24065

    B_24065 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    1
    Jesus christ industrial, read the fucking book for yourself and stop regurgitating lawrence odonnell.
     
  15. B_crackoff

    B_crackoff New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,742
    Likes Received:
    0
  16. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,280
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    I've never watched O'donnell's show. I go to bed early. The "memo" is available to ANYONE who knows how to use the google machine.
     
  17. B_Alt33

    B_Alt33 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    NY
    Indsutrialsmallsized brain I could care less about calling them ragheads, towel heads etc I'm Italian and people call me a Ginni it does not bother me at all so get over your self.

    And back to your comment regarding the Geneva Convention it only applies to those fighting for a uniformed army recognized by the country they support. Those are the facts. If you like them so much move to middle east and see how far you and your friend in the picture get. I would wager that before you left the airport you would be in some deep shit.
     
  18. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    24,280
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    2,120
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    United States
    You should care about referring to people with ethnic slurs. It is against the forum rules.
    http://www.lpsg.org/rules
    http://www.lpsg.org/185361-forum-rules.html
    Please read them

    Industrialsize
    Moderator
     
  19. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    10,516
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Boston, MA / New York, NY
    As someone who have vacationed in Jordan for several weeks with my hubby and a large group of gay men, I can tell you firsthand that we were not treated badly in any shape or form. Despite "Sharia Law" and the knowledge that extremists probably exist in the country, nobody sought us out to kill us just because we were homosexuals. They weren't asking whether we sucked dick or ate pussy during customs. No sniff dogs scanned us for poppers. No extra baggage search for a tutu and ballet slippers. At the same time, we didn't sashay the streets like we were auditioning for RuPaul's Drag Race either. We respected them and in turn everyone we encountered respected us. Our sexual preference never became an issue.

    So many people love to over exaggerate what goes on in other countries (or parts of the world) that they've never been to.
     
    #19 B_VinylBoy, Feb 18, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  20. sargon20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,369
    Likes Received:
    2,099
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlantis
Draft saved Draft deleted