Obama comment re guns and religion

[SteveHd]

Vince,

I was guessing the O/P was referring to that. I don't watch TV news so I didn't know that "comment" was still reverberating. Soooooooooooo last week!

Thanks for the exact quote.

 

[Industrialsize]

I assumed nothing. Obama did all assuming in his elitist statements.

The Underlying Truth Argument forwarded by Obama Supporters, Pro-Obama Pundits in reference to Obama's remarks is an attempt to rationalize Obama's Condescending and Elitist remarks. A rationalization does not and will not change what he stated.

Dong your statement on Bitterness and what people do in reaction to it is also Condescending and Elitist. You even go further to call people Naive who don't follow your way of thinking.

Truth in Obama's remarks? Far from any truth, the remarks are rather Obama's Elitist Opinion. Just because people are frustrated and Blue Collar Workers and Americans need the Government to provide economic solutions doesn't make Obama's remarks true. Obama's statements are
exactly as he stated them: Out of Touch, Elitist and Wrong.

I'll say it again, It's amazing how 2 people can hear the exact same thing and hear such different things..... You do realize you've descended to the point that you sound EXACTLY like the republican campaign for GWB when he ran against Kerry and Gore.....Take out the word Clinton and substitute GWBUsh, take the word Obama and substitute Kerry. Your post could have been written by Karl Rove. Is that how you want to be Trinity?

 

[dong20]

The Underlying Truth Argument forwarded by Obama Supporters, Pro-Obama Pundits in reference to Obama's remarks is an attempt to rationalize Obama's Condescending and Elitist remarks. A rationalization does not and will not change what he stated.

I don't speak for Obama supporters, I'll leave that to you.

Dong your statement on Bitterness and what people do in reaction to it is also Condescending and Elitist. You even go further to call people Naive who don't follow your way of thinking.

No, it's not. It's simply the way some people behave.

I said that when people feel cheated out of something (their livelihoods in this case) that some of them will feel bitterness about that, and that when people feel abandoned some will seek comfort in things they trust. It would be naive to believe otherwise.

Trinity, are you seriously suggesting that all the people in PA who lost their jobs and have not found new ones are entirely free from bitterness about that?

Truth in Obama's remarks? Far from any truth, the remarks are rather Obama's Elitist Opinion. Just because people are frustrated and Blue Collar Workers and Americans need the Government to provide economic solutions doesn't make Obama's remarks true. Obama's statements are
exactly as he stated them: Out of Touch, Elitist and Wrong.

So they're frustrated, not bitter - is that the entirety of your argument?

Again, step outside a political context - and please answer these two simple questions:

1. Do you deny the possibility that some (even one) of these people feel bitterness at losing their livelihoods?
   
2. Do you deny that when people feel their concerns are being disregarded and/or that they're being consigned to the 'scrap heap' that some (even one) may seek solace in values they hold dear (guns, religion ...)?

A simple yes or no to each is all that's required here.

 

[dong20]

This garbage again?

He's already clarified it here:

YouTube - "Bitter" - Barack Obama's response

I think this guy says it better. Of course for every one like him ...

YouTube - PA Man Reacts to Obama's Comments

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

Politically, making the comment was a pretty bad choice. It's just a shame that we live in a nation of soundbites to the point where something like this - instead of creating discussion about a potential issue - stands a chance of harming his campaign.

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

I think this guy says it better. Of course for every one like him ...

YouTube - PA Man Reacts to Obama's Comments

Ya, Indy and I were talking about the coverage that Foxnews was giving PA voters that agree with Obama. that guy in particular, isn't going to endorse Obama but thinks Obama is an intelligent man and says, yes PA is bitter by the unemployment.

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

I think this guy says it better. Of course for every one like him ...

YouTube - PA Man Reacts to Obama's Comments

yeah, Indy and were talking about Foxnews' story on the other thread. That guy said he respects Obama and is not supporting him, but he was honest, they are bitter, and he's lived there for 30 years.

 

[Trinity]

I don't speak for Obama supporters, I'll leave that to you.

They spoke for themselves. Just as you are.

I said that when people feel cheated out of something (their livelihoods in this case) that some of them will feel bitterness about that, and that when people feel abandoned some will seek comfort in things they trust. It would be naive to believe otherwise.

Seeking comfort in things they trust is not the point Obama made in his remarks. Obama stated that they "cling" to guns, religion, prejudice and bias to explain their bitterness with their economic situation.

So, saying people seek comfort for their situation is one thing. Stating that Small Town Blue Collar Americans "cling" to guns, religion and antipathy of people who don't look like them, anti-immigrant sentiment, prejudice and anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustration is something else entirely. And to go further to state that that is why they aren't receptive to Obama's Campaign? Unbelievable.

Do You and Obama Get IT? Their Religion is their refuge not a way to explain frustration. An Americans right to own a gun is not a way to explain away frustration, it is a Second Amendment Right. Every American has a right to feel anyway they want on the issue of immigration. It is Obama's assumption that a Blue Collar Worker who isn't voting for Obama, who lost his or her job would only be Bitter and carry anti-immigrant sentiments. Obama is Elitist and Out of Touch.

Trinity, are you seriously suggesting that all the people in PA who lost their jobs and have not found new ones are entirely free from bitterness about that?

So they're frustrated, not bitter - is that the entirety of your argument?

Frustration and bitterness...there are different implications with the two words. Obama's message of hope is steadily being degraded by his emerging true beliefs. Even if some people in PA who lost their job consider themselves bitter and/or frustrated about the Government not providing economic solutions, that does not mean they are what Obama called them...Single Issue Voters who cling to their guns, religion and prejudice to explain their bitterness or frustration and therefore can't see the merits of the Obama campaign.

Again, step outside a political context

Since this discussion does not exist outside a political context, I cannot

- and please answer these two simple questions:

1. Do you deny the possibility that some (even one) of these people feel bitterness at losing their livelihoods?
2. Do you deny that when people feel their concerns are being disregarded and/or that they're being consigned to the 'scrap heap' that some (even one) may seek solace in values they hold dear (guns, religion ...)?

A simple yes or no to each is all that's required here.

Let me you get you straight here: You don't tell me what to say or how to say it.

You and Obama have issues if you believe it is right or warranted to make negative assumptions about how Americans formulate their positions on issues like trade, immigration, and the second ammendment and especially to make assumptions and drastic unfounded generalizations as to why people are deeply religious and hold on to their values in hard times (and good times.)

Dong, there is nothing you can say or Obama can say to erase the Elitist nature of his comments and just how out of touch they are.

The more you ask those types of questions hoping desperately to find one Bitter Small Town God Chasing Pennsylvanian who lost his job, bought a gun, hates immigrants and has antipathy for anyone who doesn't look like him including Obama therefore he won't vote for Obama...It's just sad that you and Obama see people that way.

It's anything but truth. It's Obama's Elitist Opinion.

 

[dreamer20]

First, who are you to assume it's not?

Second - This post isn't about Obama or Clinton, it's about people.

People will believe what they want to believe, the same as ever. That he could have chosen 'better phraseology' to avoid hurting some folks pride is undeniable. That there's underlying truth in what he said is equally undeniable.
Bitterness will exist among populations that have lost their traditional livelihoods for reasons they consider unfair, outside their control and especially if perpetrated by those who they can easily identify and 'label'. This is especially true of industries rendered obsolete. People don't like to be rendered obsolete. That some, many even will feel bitterness is inevitable.

Your post and Obama's remarks were not "condescending and elitist", yet in spite of this the disseminators of faux news want to say these words repeatedly. I suspect some sort of artificial intelligence programming is involved.

Many in PA are familiar with this song:

YouTube - Billy Joel-Allentown

It wasn't condescending or elitist either.:smile:

 

[gjorg]

He is so right that if I was american, I would vote for him just for that comment

You would but most Americans are buck stupid.
Why do you think most politicians HAVE to lie? Smart people catch them at it but stupids are the voting block and they can be led around like lemmings.

b/c John McCain has more foreign policy experience and Obama has none right? So if the dems want to win, we should vote for Hillary, b/c she has foreign policy experience, with Bosnia and sniper fire (oops not so much) Kosovo (uhm...no borders were already open and she has no referential power to do so on behalf of the the US to NATO or the UN as the first lady)...and Ireland peace process - (telling that the nobel prize winners are divided on her contribution - one catholic supports her claim of being involved and the other protestant dismissed it as silly - so how lasting was her influence on Ireland peace involvement - if catholic nobel prize winner and protestant prize winner are still divided?)

Obama has moved beyond the pastor comments.

voters are concerned about jobs and the devaluation of the dollar that continues to raise the cost of gas - not religious posturing during this election.

He moved passed it,but thats not who votes!
Is that like "oh, I took care of that,next"?

 

[midlifebear]

Deconstruct Obama's comments all you want. He screwed the pooch, showing he's just as elitist as The Hillary. The "I don't watch TV news. . . " comment is a special hoot. I NEVER watch American, Canadian, or ANY foreign language version of CNN, however, Obama's "bitterness and clinging" comments made all of the major papers in Brazil, Chile, Argentina, and Spain.

I really don't care which Democrat wins as long as no Republican is allowed to carry the torch for The Bush -- worst president since Hoover. Regardless who is going to become president, by default they are going to be elitist, even if McCain wins. It's this "I'm one of you" bull shit that hurts the fillings in my teeth and makes my eyes roll.

Rather than ranting, moaning, and bitching about Obama and The Hillary, Democrats should be celebrating the fact they have two incredible people running for the Democratic nomination. But, no. That's no longer an acceptable posture.

Even if Obama had said the particular brand of disenfranchised folks he was referring to "embraced and celebrated their religion and right to bear arms" instead of how he otherwise phrased it, the he said/she said twits would still pick through the ashes to find fault and enough leftover moist poop to sling.

You all have no idea how utterly boring you are.

 

[HazelGod]

You all have no idea how utterly boring you are.

How fortunate, then, that you're here to repeatedly remind us.

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

Elitist as Hillary?

puh-leeze...I want Hillary's god-damn life when I'm given 15million dollars via partnership in the Cayman Islands.

Obama was raised by a single mother and he's the elitist. What-EVER!

 

[cocktaste]

I think the point was, people vote on these supposed issues, that are in fact, non-issues. Then then vote against their own best interests. Why do you think Republicans put stupid bullshit on the ballots like gay marriage? Why do you think they demonize them? They're doing it to rally people with stupid shit that they know they'll fall for. It's the truth: Guns, Gays, and God. All ridiculous non-issues that let themselves get distracted with. If Democrats wanted to take away guns, they could have done it with the majority they had for decades. This is a bunch of baloney. It's doesn't surprise me in the slightest though. Gun nuts are just that, nuts. They're totally irrational, and paranoid. The majority of them have no problem with the government spying on them 24/7.

 

[cocktaste]

Elitist as Hillary?

puh-leeze...I want Hillary's god-damn life when I'm given 15million dollars via partnership in the Cayman Islands.

Obama was raised by a single mother and he's the elitist. What-EVER!

That comment doesn't even make sense. Obama was very privileged.

 

[dong20]

They spoke for themselves. Just as you are.

You've also spoken for the American people on more than one occasion, as I recall. Anyway, I thought I was speaking for Obama?:tongue:

Seeking comfort in things they trust is not the point Obama made in his remarks. Obama stated that they "cling" to guns, religion, prejudice and bias to explain their bitterness with their economic situation.

It was almost entirely the point.

So, saying people seek comfort for their situation is one thing. Stating that Small Town Blue Collar Americans "cling" to guns, religion and antipathy of people who don't look like them, anti-immigrant sentiment, prejudice and anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustration is something else entirely.

No, merely a logical extrapolation of behaviour for some of them:

Some people blame illegal immigration for job losses, yes. This could cause them to support more conservative or protectionist candidates and legislation - do you agree or disagree?

Some people blame a growth in Islam as a cause for concern believing that the US Government is too accommodating to Muslims in what they consider a 'Christian' nation. This could lead them to favour pro Christian leaning candidates and legislation - Do you agree or disagree?

The right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution (whereas the right to a job isn't). This could cause them to oppose pro gun control candidates and legislation. Do you agree or disagree?

And to go further to state that that is why they aren't receptive to Obama's Campaign? Unbelievable.

I made no such assertion. But cynicism borne from a generation of disappointment could easily have that effect on some. I doubt many would believe any politician at this point.

Do You and Obama Get IT? Their Religion is their refuge not a way to explain frustration. An Americans right to own a gun is not a way to explain away frustration, it is a Second Amendment Right. Every American has a right to feel anyway they want on the issue of immigration. It is Obama's assumption that a Blue Collar Worker who isn't voting for Obama, who lost his or her job would only be Bitter and carry anti-immigrant sentiments. Obama is Elitist and Out of Touch.

Me and Obama again? Are you reading impaired - do you need a diagram? This isn't about a voter's right to feel a certain way, it's about a voter's motivation for feeling that certain way.

Frustration and bitterness...there are different implications with the two words.

Bitterness is typically borne out of frustration. I imagine many of those who lost their jobs years ago have long since managed that transition.

Obama's message of hope is steadily being degraded by his emerging true beliefs.

Well I disbelieve just about anything that comes out of the mouth of any politician.

Even if some people in PA who lost their job consider themselves bitter and/or frustrated about the Government not providing economic solutions,

So you're open to the idea that some may be?

that does not mean they are what Obama called them...Single Issue Voters who cling to their guns, religion and prejudice to explain their bitterness or frustration and therefore can't see the merits of the Obama campaign.

But you can't discount the possibility. You know this as well as anyone.

Since this discussion does not exist outside a political context, I cannot

You cannot answer a simple question? A discussion about the causes of and consequences of these people's frustration doesn't exist outside a political context? Is that really what you're saying?

Let me you get you straight here: You don't tell me what to say or how to say it.

Get over yourself, Trinity. I merely asked you a couple of questions.

You and Obama have issues if you believe it is right or warranted to make negative assumptions about how Americans formulate their positions on issues like trade, immigration, and the second ammendment and especially to make assumptions and drastic unfounded generalizations as to why people are deeply religious and hold on to their values in hard times (and good times.)

Why, it's never stopped you from doing exactly that. In this very thraad. You did this when you made a definitive statement that the premise of his argument was wrong. Not wrong for some, just wrong. That it couldn't be right for a single voter. That's rather an arrogant assumption to me. The elitist stuff is mere misdirection.

Dong, there is nothing you can say or Obama can say to erase the Elitist nature of his comments and just how out of touch they are.

Ah, finally definitive proof of a closed mind?

The more you ask those types of questions hoping desperately to find one Bitter Small Town God Chasing Pennsylvanian who lost his job, bought a gun, hates immigrants and has antipathy for anyone who doesn't look like him including Obama therefore he won't vote for Obama...It's just sad that you and Obama see people that way.

The more I ask ... you didn't actually make a point?

So again, are you saying that not a single soul in PA feels bitterness or contempt for Government for the loss of their livelihood? Not even one. I like the characterisations though.

I should add that I have not once made this about voting for Obama. Or even supporting him. I stated this at the very start. I have always been seeking to discuss this from the perspective of the people in PA. You have consistently made it about voting, elitism and being out of touch.

You should watch this guy, the McCain supporter you just called a liar.

It's anything but truth. It's Obama's Elitist Opinion.

As of course is everything you say here. And it's no more, or less valid either.

Let me just turn this around for a moment. Hillary stated that her impression was that the people of PA were resilient, optimistic, positive and rolling up their sleeves ... I'm sure she did meet people like that. I'm sure Obama did too, but then he didn't say that everyone in PA was bitter, as Hillary didn't say that everyone wasn't.

Logically if you deny that there is any truth in the Obama bitterness angle, you must therefore deny any truth in the Hillary optimism and resilience angle too. You didn't answer my simple questions, so I'll repeat them, and add one.

My additional question for you is this; can both candidates not both be correct - that people fitting each characterisation do in fact exist in PA?

I'm genuinely trying to discuss this with you as an issue, but you keep throwing 'me and Obama' rhetoric back at me. It's wasted effort, I won't be voting for Obama.

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

I've just discovered that Trinity is a walking, talking Clinton talking point. There is no point in debating with her.

 

[transformer_99]

I think Obama's remarks, while holding a cruder trueness, simply indicates the three of them are the same status quo we have always had. All of them are out of touch and Obama saying he brings in a breathe of new fresh air tickles me while saddening me about the situation this nation is in. He's part of the new guard coming in to take the same positions of the old guard. I'd venture to say he's been mentored along the way by the one's he's trying to replace. Again, nothing will change and the American citizens will have to endure at least 4 years of the next one that gets in. And the way I see it, crusty old McCain, it's his last hurrah. Hillary, probably her only shot, because like Gore and Kerry before her, she's one and done in the event of a loss where she was the prohibitive favorite. Obama, does he fall by the wayside too should he not secure the Presidency (or even the party nomination) ?

As for the rustbelt, they have every right to be bitter, they have probably been most effected by NAFTA and job losses over the last 4-5 administrations. After that kind of pummeling & drought, faith in a higher being is about all the majority could have. The last election was about improving economic conditions and that's what both sides sold the people when they last campaigned in 2004. Well, it never got better, eventually GM, Ford & Chrysler have lost more jobs, closed factories, even renegotiated UAW contracts for lower wages for future work. In the meantime, inflation continues unrelenting for those in the rustbelt.

 

[AlteredEgo]

Wake up
You are being robbed.

Preach!

Oddly my response to this has been to seek martial arts training, take a course in firearm safety as a precursor to applying for a gun permit, and begin designing a fort with my intended. Civil war nearly always erupts when the middle class becomes to small and over-burdened.

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

You would but most Americans are buck stupid.
Why do you think most politicians HAVE to lie? Smart people catch them at it but stupids are the voting block and they can be led around like lemmings.

He moved passed it,but thats not who votes!
Is that like "oh, I took care of that,next"?

I disagree, they are not stupid...people are misled, but we have more resources, youtube and electronic filing that discloses full records online - that allow us to look at financial records...instead of the old protocol, where candidates released portions of their records to news media that they were friendly with, in return, they released a limited amount of information.

Indy posted links on FOXNEWS of all things, showing that voters did not disagree w/ Obama's statements about PA being bitter. For the record I have a friend from Michigan (motor city) and he talks about his friends 45-50 that are bitter about losing jobs. McCain says "your jobs aren't coming back." So when Obama says they don't believe Washington will do anything - they cling to their families, their faith and vote on those matters, not economic matters, there's nothing elitist about that statement. It's a reality and no one has been candid and that honest about it. He doesn't placate to their woes or make bs "putty on a happy smile, we're gonna roll our sleeves up and re-negotiate this trade deal" spin that Clinton does.

That aside - polls last week have Obama nationally ahead of Clinton 52 to 42. His pastor did not do the damage that people hoped that it would.

I mean you have Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell praising and admiring his speech on race. You've got older voters saying they won't vote for him, but admire Obama. That is very telling...and the longer he campaigns, the better he does. You've got the senior leadership that he has won over. Governor Richardson on the onset said was going to endorse senator Clinton, but he resented the constant pressure from her camp to do so...and enjoyed his conversations with Obama.

So no, I don't think Wright is an issue any more in this campaign.