Obama Eligibility Challenge Moves Forward

[jason_els]

Freddy, you dear sweet man :hug:, she's been told this 1000 times and she dismisses it all. Trinity chooses what reality to believe and nothing but nothing will convince her that Obama is a legitimate sitting president. She doesn't understand that the certificate of live birth is legally-accepted proof of birth. She doesn't understand that courts need evidence to procede. She doesn't understand that even if the courts have evidence, there's nothing they can do to remedy the situation even if the Supreme Court itself were to hear the case. She so desperately wants Obama to be out of office that she'll believe anything that agrees with her view and don't forget, she's a self-proclaimed Democrat who rabidly supported Hillary Clinton (another person who advocated health care reform). There's a lot of anger and resentment toward Obama because he beat her candidate and when Clinton advocated supporting Obama and brokered the Secretary of State chair, Trinity ignored the request. Such blatant and open disregard for the reality of the political situation reveals a deep emotional fear of this country being led by Obama rather than Clinton. I don't know why she has it and I'll leave out the speculation, but given that their platforms were nearly identical, I don't see it as being a problem of policy.

Have a stiff drink and relax in front of a fire. It's not worth arguing a point when the basis of objection to that point is rooted in emotion rather than reason.

 

[Bbucko]

From the above Internet source:

"Let us take up a new banner, and proclaim a New American Nationalism

Let us not betray ourselves, by allowing others to lead us: the time has come for We the People to Rule: for We the People to choose our candidates and for us to take the initiative. The Main Stream Media has betrayed us; D.C. has betrayed us: let us therefore betray them, and renounce their scams once and for all.
Let us oust everyone in Congress; let us turn our backs on the fawning liars in both parties.
Let us be Constitutionalists, American Nationalists!
Let us agitate and take decisive action this fall"

Damn!!!! Does anyone else see those underlined words. I didn't copy the line about getting rid of foreign influences. Sounds to me like a propaganda sheet from the German Nazi Party in the 30s. Just change American to German and foreign influences to Jews and bingo, we now have a copy and paste from no less than Adolph Hitler!!!

I'll take my chances with Obama regardless where he was born or when he was potty trained and if it is true he wet his pants in sixth grade because the teacher wouldn't let him go to the toilet all day.

Story is the teacher wouldn't let Obama go to the toilets, damn that was a slip up, I mean the restroom until his mother produced a valid long form birth certificate.

The teacher became suspicious when Obama referred the place where boys pee at school as the toilets. She knew American citizens called it the "restrooms" and British citizens call them the "toilets." That blessed teacher bless her heart did her civic duty and wouldn't let Obama go all day waiting on mom to produce that birth certificate. By five o'clock in the afternoon....Now you know the rest of the story.

I don't want this lunatic mob or their supporters taking over our beloved nation!!!

My perusal of Trinity's "information source" began and ended with the "editorial" we both quoted from above: American Nationalists indeed!

But frankly I believe that Trinity chooses such sites specifically to incite us to anger. There's a weirdly theatrical, provocative quality to such things. I feel like a bell that's just been rung against my will. More than any other single reason, that's why Trinity is on my ignore list.

 

[Bbucko]

Freddy, you dear sweet man :hug:, she's been told this 1000 times and she dismisses it all. Trinity chooses what reality to believe and nothing but nothing will convince her that Obama is a legitimate sitting president. She doesn't understand that the certificate of live birth is legally-accepted proof of birth. She doesn't understand that courts need evidence to procede. She doesn't understand that even if the courts have evidence, there's nothing they can do to remedy the situation even if the Supreme Court itself were to hear the case. She so desperately wants Obama to be out of office that she'll believe anything that agrees with her view and don't forget, she's a self-proclaimed Democrat who rabidly supported Hillary Clinton (another person who advocated health care reform). There's a lot of anger and resentment toward Obama because he beat her candidate and when Clinton advocated supporting Obama and brokered the Secretary of State chair, Trinity ignored the request. Such blatant and open disregard for the reality of the political situation reveals a deep emotional fear of this country being led by Obama rather than Clinton. I don't know why she has it and I'll leave out the speculation, but given that their platforms were nearly identical, I don't see it as being a problem of policy.

Have a stiff drink and relax in front of a fire. It's not worth arguing a point when the basis of objection to that point is rooted in emotion rather than reason.

Though Hillary ran a campaign that was mostly to Obama's right, her health reform platform criticized Obama from the left. In her long, slow plod through the primaries and caucuses towards her expected coronation, Hillary's positioning was 60% focus-grouped, 40% old Clinton machine and 100% transparent obviousness.

Trinity, on the other hand is pure Operation Chaos.

 

[camper joe]

Is it just me or do others think that a visit to a Psychiatric Hospital might help some that have posted in this thread???

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Is it just me or do others think that a visit to a Psychiatric Hospital might help some that have posted in this thread???

Where do you think these people access the internet from? :biggrin1:

 

[Bbucko]

Anyone actually seen the Birthermercial? For $30 you get a bumpersticker and a spot on a spam fax.

 

[SilverTrain]

Anyone actually seen the Birthermercial? For $30 you get a bumpersticker and a spot on a spam fax.

All that money could have gone a long way toward funding health care programs.

 

[JTalbain]

Here's what I don't get, has anyone ever questioned the citizenship of Obama's mother? If his mother is a US citizen, he is a US citizen. Period. Full stop. It doesn't matter where he was born. It doesn't matter what his father wrote on a birth certificate that may or may not exist. Here's two Supreme Court rulings:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

• United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898): In this case, the majority of the Court held that a child born in U.S. territory to parents who were subjects of the emperor of China and who were not eligible for U.S. citizenship, but who had “a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China” was a U.S. Citizen.

The Court stated that:

The constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words [citizen and natural born citizen], either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except in so far as this is done by the affirmative declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.'[18]
​

Since there was no definition of "natural born citizen" found in the constitution, the majority adopted the common law of England that was a carry over from feudal times.
The court ruled:

It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.
​

The dissent argued that the meaning of the “subject to the jurisdiction” language found in 14th Amendment was the same as that found in the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which provides: “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.” On the meaning of “natural born citizen,” the dissent also cited the treatise on international law by Emerich de Vattel entitled “The Law of Nations” which may have influenced the drafters of the original constitution:[19] "The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens."[20] The dissenters also noted that:

it is unreasonable to conclude that 'natural born citizen' applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances; and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay, or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not.[18]
​

• Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939): The U.S. Supreme Court concluded that Marie Elizabeth Elg, who was born in the United States of Swedish parents naturalized in the United States, had not lost her birthright U.S. citizenship because of her removal during minority to Sweden and was entitled to all the rights and privileges of that U.S. citizenship. In this case, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the decree that declared Elg "to be a natural born citizen of the United States."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That pretty much sums it up. If he was born in America, he is a US citizen. If either of his parents were US citizens, he's a US citizen regardless of where he was born. Either way, he's legit.

 

[JTalbain]

Just for the information of those who are holding on to this, the people who are pushing the rumors don't actually care about you. Pretty much everyone in Congress, Democrat or Republican, says that the reform Obama is working for needs to happen, and sooner rather than later. Some Republicans though are trying to stall at any cost for two years, because they want to reach congressional election time, point at Obama and scream "He preached change but hasn't accomplished anything!" and hopefully get Republican reinforcements for more bargaining power.

People like Jim DeMint, who was quoted as saying he wanted to kill the bill, not because he disagreed with it, but because Obama had staked everything on it, and if he can't see it through then "It will break him." Are you from South Carolina by any chance? If so, one of your elected representatives is wasting every taxpayer's time and money, as well as playing games with the health, well-being, and financial security of every uninsured person in the country, in order to serve the ends of a political power play. Remember that come election time.

 

[Ericsson1228d]

Here's what I don't get, has anyone ever questioned the citizenship of Obama's mother? If his mother is a US citizen, he is a US citizen. Period. Full stop. It doesn't matter where he was born. It doesn't matter what his father wrote on a birth certificate that may or may not exist. Here's two Supreme Court rulings:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

• United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898): In this case, the majority of the Court held that a child born in U.S. territory to parents who were subjects of the emperor of China and who were not eligible for U.S. citizenship, but who had “a permanent domicile and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the emperor of China” was a U.S. Citizen.

The Court stated that:

The constitution nowhere defines the meaning of these words [citizen and natural born citizen], either by way of inclusion or of exclusion, except in so far as this is done by the affirmative declaration that 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.'[18]
​

Since there was no definition of "natural born citizen" found in the constitution, the majority adopted the common law of England that was a carry over from feudal times.
The court ruled:

It thus clearly appears that by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country, and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, and the jurisdiction of the English sovereign; and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign state, or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born. III. The same rule was in force in all the English colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the constitution as originally established.
​

The dissent argued that the meaning of the “subject to the jurisdiction” language found in 14th Amendment was the same as that found in the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which provides: “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.” On the meaning of “natural born citizen,” the dissent also cited the treatise on international law by Emerich de Vattel entitled “The Law of Nations” which may have influenced the drafters of the original constitution:[19] "The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens."[20] The dissenters also noted that:

it is unreasonable to conclude that 'natural born citizen' applied to everybody born within the geographical tract known as the United States, irrespective of circumstances; and that the children of foreigners, happening to be born to them while passing through the country, whether of royal parentage or not, or whether of the Mongolian, Malay, or other race, were eligible to the presidency, while children of our citizens, born abroad, were not.[18]
​

• Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939): The U.S. Supreme Court concluded that Marie Elizabeth Elg, who was born in the United States of Swedish parents naturalized in the United States, had not lost her birthright U.S. citizenship because of her removal during minority to Sweden and was entitled to all the rights and privileges of that U.S. citizenship. In this case, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the decree that declared Elg "to be a natural born citizen of the United States."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That pretty much sums it up. If he was born in America, he is a US citizen. If either of his parents were US citizens, he's a US citizen regardless of where he was born. Either way, he's legit.

Some of the birthers claim that his mother was "too young" to confer citizenship if she had BO outside the US. Is that true? I haven't seen an 'age requirement.' While I am not a fan of BO, I feel that the birthers are spinning their wheels. I am sure the RNC had far more resources to pour into the birth matter than the birther movement, and if they didn't uncover anything, I am guessing things are legit with BO and his birthplace/situation, or it would have been found long ago.

 

[Pitbull]

Here's what I don't get, has anyone ever questioned the citizenship of Obama's mother? If his mother is a US citizen, he is a US citizen. Period. Full stop. It doesn't matter where he was born. It doesn't matter what his father wrote on a birth certificate that may or may not exist....
That pretty much sums it up. If he was born in America, he is a US citizen. If either of his parents were US citizens, he's a US citizen regardless of where he was born. Either way, he's legit.

This has been brought up here and many places over the internet.

The constitution specifies natural born citizen.

It does matter where he was born.

Nice of you to admit that the birth certificate may not exist.
That is why he needs to show it.
There are doubts that Obama himself has fueled by only producing the Certificate of Live Birth and only on the internet and to a reporter from an Obama friendly internet site.
Never to a court
Never to be examined by a document expert appointed by a court
Never to allow the State of Hawaii to release the original document (if as you said it exists).

 

[JTalbain]

This has been brought up here and many places over the internet.

The constitution specifies natural born citizen.

It does matter where he was born.

Nice of you to admit that the birth certificate may not exist.
That is why he needs to show it.
There are doubts that Obama himself has fueled by only producing the Certificate of Live Birth and only on the internet and to a reporter from an Obama friendly internet site.
Never to a court
Never to be examined by a document expert appointed by a court
Never to allow the State of Hawaii to release the original document (if as you said it exists).

If you notice, however, I didn't quote the Constitution for my post, I quoted the US Supreme Court. The job of the Judicial Branch is to determine the Constitutionality of laws and legal rulings, as well as setting baselines for how they will apply in the future.

The Court specifically mentioned how the wording was left open when the Constitution was drafted and hence interpreted what they thought of as a fair interpretation, as close to the intent of the writers as possible. At that point, the Supreme Court ruling became law. The only ways that this can be changed is by a later court reversing the decision about the interpretation or by a constitutional amendment to alter the wording and interpretation.

 

[JTalbain]

Nice of you to admit that the birth certificate may not exist. That is why he needs to show it.

Here I was saying that it doesn't matter if he was born in the US, or if he received a birth certificate elsewhere. His mother was, there is no age limit, she transferred the citizenship to her son. It doesn't matter if he was born on freaking Mars, he's still a US citizen.

 

[Pitbull]

If you notice, however, I didn't quote the Constitution for my post, I quoted the US Supreme Court.

The court has not ruled on what constitutes a natural born citizen.

Also the cases you quote do not have to do with qualifications to be president of the US

 

[JTalbain]

The court has not ruled on what constitutes a natural born citizen.

Also the cases you quote do not have to do with qualifications to be president of the US

My cases are decades and decades old. The cases are closed, the court has ruled.

As for the eligibility, the aspect which is in question is that the candidate must be a natural born US citizen. If the court has already ruled that someone in the same circumstances would possess and would not lose natural born US citizenship. Or perhaps you're saying his age is in question instead? Obama is using a fake ID? He does look pretty young...

All the requirements to be President of the United States are as follows:

• Natural Born citizen of the United States (covered, his mother is a citizen, he is a citizen. No ifs ands or buts. See the above court cases I posted)
• At least 35 years of age (Obama is 47 I believe)
• Lived in the US for at least 14 years prior to running for office (not under dispute, but he has done so for more than that.)

There is no real court case, his eligibility is not being challenged. The anti-Obama teams are putting on a good show, but it's not going to fool anyone in the end.

 

[Pitbull]

My cases are decades and decades old. The cases are closed, the court has ruled.

As for the eligibility, the aspect which is in question is that the candidate must be a natural born US citizen. If the court has already ruled that someone in the same circumstances would possess and would not lose natural born US citizenship. Or perhaps you're saying his age is in question instead? Obama is using a fake ID? He does look pretty young...

All the requirements to be President of the United States are as follows:

• Natural Born citizen of the United States (covered, his mother is a citizen, he is a citizen. No ifs ands or buts. See the above court cases I posted)
• At least 35 years of age (Obama is 47 I believe)
• Lived in the US for at least 14 years prior to running for office (not under dispute, but he has done so for more than that.)

There is no real court case, his eligibility is not being challenged. The anti-Obama teams are putting on a good show, but it's not going to fool anyone in the end.

Well obviously your mind is made up.
Don't let any facts get in your way.

 

[JTalbain]

Well obviously your mind is made up.
Don't let any facts get in your way.

Facts you want? How about the fact that World Net Daily was the originator of the rumor? How about the fact that WND investigated the birth certificate from Hawaii themselves, and found it to be genuine, then later recanted their opinion? How about the fact that reporters for World Net Daily have been shown to have ties to White Supremacy groups, even going so far as to say that Thomas Jefferson drafting the Declaration of Independence was proof of "Anglo-Saxon superiority"? How about the fact that World Net Daily is currently seen as such a colossal bunch of nutjobs that conservatives from the Republican Party are beginning to start a boycott of them? How about the fact that the same World Net Daily just sent out numerous scare tactic emails to their subscribers claiming that the Democrats have a health care bill they are going to pass in secret behind closed doors and that Obama's disaster relief aid for the flooding in Georgia is actually a plot to create Nazi-style concentration camps to hold political dissidents?

I can forward those emails to you if you want, as they were forwarded to me by my evangelical next door neighbor. Of course you could just google World Net Daily and see the idiocy for yourself. If the Republican Party had an ounce of self-respect at this point they'd return in sweeping form, using logic and ideals as their weapons, kick lunatics like WND to the curb, and make a stand on issues that actually matter. But that's perhaps the most disturbing fact of all: When conservative news leader Jon Henke, founder of the conservative newsgroup "The Next Right" tried to rally the Republicans in Congress to boycott, about 1/3 of them told him to leave them alone, because their using WND to advertise, and WND is okay because they're "taking shots at Obama". Here's the interview: WorldNetDaily, the RNC, and the mainstreaming of extremist ideas | Crooks and Liars

Here's a final fact for you. When the GOP finally gets around to cutting their ties with WND, a lot of people are going to feel pretty stupid for having swallowed all of that :bsflag:.

 

[Pitbull]

Simple fact - Obama refuses to present his birth certificate.

 

[camper joe]

Where do you think these people access the internet from? :biggrin1:

Hmm, well worth noting. But them having access to the net isn't improving their mental health status.

The word is deny. Look it up.

 

[JTalbain]

Simple fact - Obama refuses to present his birth certificate.

Simpler fact: Obama has presented his birth certificate back in 2008, and it has been verified as genuine
FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A. - Fact Check is a nonpartisan organization which has actually criticized and picked apart many statements from Obama's speeches, pointing out whenever he flubs the facts.

Pictures of the Birth Certificate from every conceivable angle-
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg - Fold and seal
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg - Full certificate
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_3.jpg - Full Certificate
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_4.jpg - Top Third
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_5.jpg - Middle Third
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_6.jpg - Bottom Third
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_7.jpg - Stamp and seal
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_8.jpg - Seal
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_9.jpg - Stamp

That's about as close as you can get to it without going to Hawaii.

PolitiFact | Obama's birth certificate: Final chapter. This time we mean it! - A Pulitzer Prize winning site which exhausted pretty much every possibility for Obama to be Foreign born. They conclude that faking what they found would have required the bribing of two independent newspapers and a government office almost 50 years ago on the off chance the child would want to run for president.

3 Reasons To Stop Obsessing Over Obama's Birth Certificate - Right Wing News (Conservative News and Views) - The fact that this site is called Right Wing News should tell you something about their affiliation. As the author puts it, Obama isn't trying to dispel the claims of his political rivals, because, "When your political enemies are making fools of themselves, why stop them?"

In Flag City USA, False Obama Rumors Are Flying - Yet another major publication which addresses the rumors in 2008.

Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Basically a fully researched and annotated compilation, complete with a bibliography of 210 sources, including one where the House of Representatives unanimously recognized Hawaii as Obama's birthplace, which explains why everyone who believes Obama is not an American citizen is a colossal moron.

Enjoy.