Obama Eligibility Challenge Moves Forward

Pitbull

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That is as much as anyone has seen.

A REAL DOCUMENT NEEDS TO BE PRESENTED IN A COURT OF LAW.

You or I could not submit anything to a court as an internet image and have it accepted.

No one could be convicted of a crime based on an image of a document that is only present on the internet.
No one may be exonerated by the same either.

There has been a lot of discussion about this issue.
Why a notice in a newspaper is not the same as a birth certificate.
Why a COLB from Hawaii does not actually mean born in Hawaii.
I even posted this link before:
Sun Yat-sen: Certification of Live Birth in Hawaii

(Hawaiian COLB issued to famous person born in China)

Continue with your defense.
Facts are annoying.
Just ignore the ones that are a problem.

FACT - OBAMA HAS NOT SHOWN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE
 

HazelGod

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JT, you're operating from the mistaken impression that people like this actually are interested in honest, rational discussion.

You're new here, so it's an easy enough mistake to make.

Just be aware, no matter how reasoned and sensible your evidence and presentation might be, there's simply no convincing people like this of their errors in thinking. Best just to ignore them and focus your conversations on saner participants.
 

JTalbain

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JT, you're operating from the mistaken impression that people like this actually are interested in honest, rational discussion.

You're new here, so it's an easy enough mistake to make.

Just be aware, no matter how reasoned and sensible your evidence and presentation might be, there's simply no convincing people like this of their errors in thinking. Best just to ignore them and focus your conversations on saner participants.
As I've said before, I like allowing people to inflict themselves with a case of Athlete's Mouth.
 

jason_els

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That is as much as anyone has seen.

A REAL DOCUMENT NEEDS TO BE PRESENTED IN A COURT OF LAW.

You or I could not submit anything to a court as an internet image and have it accepted.

No one could be convicted of a crime based on an image of a document that is only present on the internet.
No one may be exonerated by the same either.

There has been a lot of discussion about this issue.
Why a notice in a newspaper is not the same as a birth certificate.
Why a COLB from Hawaii does not actually mean born in Hawaii.
I even posted this link before:
Sun Yat-sen: Certification of Live Birth in Hawaii

(Hawaiian COLB issued to famous person born in China)

Continue with your defense.
Facts are annoying.
Just ignore the ones that are a problem.

FACT - OBAMA HAS NOT SHOWN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE

Obama does not need to show his birth certificate because no court has required he do so. No court has required he do so because no one has provided any evidence to a court that he is anything other than what he says he is. The burden of proof in any court case is on the litigant, not the defendant.

What the birthers have is NOTHING, not one shred of documented evidence, not one affidavit. When that's what you bring to a court room, that is what you will leave with.

It's astonishing that such a simple premise has escaped so many.
 

JTalbain

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A REAL DOCUMENT NEEDS TO BE PRESENTED IN A COURT OF LAW....

I even posted this link before:
Sun Yat-sen: Certification of Live Birth in Hawaii

Does anyone else see the irony of him using an internet image to prove his point that a Certification of Live Birth can be issued to a foreign national, when he simultaneously doesn't allow a picture to be posted to prove he is wrong?

Also, this is not exactly a good point for you. This document was obtained under false pretenses, in the early 1900's, with crappy recordkeeping, because he convinced the government to issue him one on the word of Chinese friends of his who lied and claimed to be present at the birth.

Obama's document is backed up by this explanation: The law allowing foreign-born children to obtain Hawaiian COLBs didn&#8217;t exist until 20 years after Obama was born, while Obama&#8217;s published COLB says his birth information was recorded four days after his birth in 1961, and explicitly states that he was born in Honolulu. Therefore, unless the document is a complete forgery, it is valid. It is also supported by the director of Hawaii's Department of Health, Chiyome Fukino, who retains access to the original copy, and is also the person that would be called in court to verify its validity. Additionally, two independent publications published the birth in their newspapers in Hawaii just days after he was born, with names and date that exactly match the COLB. Were they bribed on the off chance that the child might want to run for President 50 years in the future?

FACT - OBAMA HAS NOT SHOWN HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE
You don't get how this works. He doesn't have to do jack except stay half-black and die. Not until someone can present a legitimate case. If someone tries to take you to court for any reason and has absolutely nothing to back up any claim that they make, the case is dismissed. Period. THEY DO NOT GET TO SUBPEONA ANYTHING FROM YOU. If they repeatedly try to do so, it's called legal harassment. Wonder why very few people have tried to take Obama to court on this matter twice?

Finally, a note that may piss you off: Resolution Proclaiming Hawaii Obama's Birthplace Passes House Unanimously What does this mean? It means that Congress has declared Hawaii as Obama's birthplace. As such, Congress has stated that Obama is a natural born citizen of the United States. Federal law overrides all state laws, according to the United States constitution Supremacy Clause. Therefore, it now doesn't even matter if Obama was born in Hawaii. Hawaii could find new records showing that it was a different Barack Obama born that day, and their implications would be rendered invalid by previous decree of the Legislative Branch. He is a natural born citizen of the United States because Congress has declared him to be so.

Considering this bill passed unanimously, it is probably also the sign that the Republican Party has noticed the toll such idiocy is taking on their credibility, and are ready to embrace reason again. I encourage you to do the same.
 

jason_els

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The Congressional thing is a bit of a grand stand. If some kind of iron clad proof of Obama being born outside the United States exist and some kind of iron clad proof existed that stated Obama's mother was not a legal US citizen, then, perhaps, the Supreme Court might hear a case if it were brought by the US Congress OR the Attorney General. The only case they could hear would be regarding the validity of the House and Senate resolutions declaring Obama to be born in Hawaii if, in fact, the Supreme Court has proof that he was not. At that time, they could declare the law unconstitutional based upon Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. But that's all they could do. The Supreme Court is powerless to invalidate the election, remove Obama from office, or force Congress to remove him. Essentially they'd be saying, "OK, Congress can't make laws saying something false is true when the Constitution requires that something be true." That's all they could possibly do because they have no standing to do anything else. They still can't compel Congress or the President to rectify the situation.

The point being, the courts, and that's all of them, can't do anything to unseat Obama. If the birthers had any sense at all, they'd be lobbying Congress to impeach and remove the president because they're the only body empowered to do so. Given the balance of Congress these days, I'd sooner expect Chancellor Merkel to be visiting Dubya's Gun Emporium and Massage Parlour.

I hope someone will realize how ridiculous this scenario is.
 

HazelGod

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Actually, resolutions passed by either chamber of Congress do not carry the force of law outside the Congress. Only a bill passed by both houses and signed by the POTUS is enacted as law of the land, with the occasional exceptions of some joint resolutions (declarations of war, Constitutional amendments, etc.)

That said, JT is essentially correct in that the House expressed unanimously that Obama was born in Hawaii, even though this fact was but one of the preambles of a resolution marking celebration of the state's 50th anniversary in the union.
 

Pitbull

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Obama does not need to show his birth certificate because no court has required he do so. No court has required he do so because no one has provided any evidence to a court that he is anything other than what he says he is. The burden of proof in any court case is on the litigant, not the defendant.

The above is a combination of wrong and stupid that may sound good to those who do not wish to think.

Obama has not shown his birth certificate because he does not want to.
Why not?
A good question to think about.

No court has required him to because he had some very talented lawyers getting cases thrown out - not on merits - but technical issues such as standing.
Some courts have not required him to based on what appears to be some kind of bias towards Obama (Judge Land).

There are numerous instances where the government requires documentation in order to obtain something.
Driver's License - Prove you are older than 16 or no license.

Office of the President
Obama does not have to prove he meets the requirements?????
Why?
Because you are a supporter afraid to find out the truth.
Transparency my ass!
Sounded good during the campaign.
Applies to everyone?
No - Obama is special.
He seems nice.
I believe him.

Just admit it.
You love Obama.
You don't want to admit you might be wrong.
That goes for every one else here that lacks the common sense to see that he has a reason for not providing his birth certificate.
And the reason that seems most likely is that whatever the documentation that Hawaii has, favors the position of those who are challenging his qualifications.

And burden of proof?
You are accused of a crime.
You have evidence that will prove your innocence.
You fail to provide it?
Proves you are an asshole.
All those people getting out of jail after decades due to advances in DNA technology.
If they had that evidence would they have sat on it?
FUCKING HELL NO!!

Obama is not in criminal court accused of a crime.
He is being asked to prove he meets the requirements.
There is a difference.

You are accused of a crime.
You have evidence that will prove your innocence.
You fail to provide it?
Spending large sums of money.
You rely on the principle of innocent until proven guilty?
You take the thing through the court till the final verdict?

Defendants usually try to exclude evidence that proves guilt.
Obama is a smart lawyer.
Maybe that is what he is trying to do here...
 

scottredleter

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This is all very old bullshit... and Dr. Orly Taitz is the one with the shovel, still trying to spout off her racist views. She's been discredited by her peers and is a total joke!
 

JTalbain

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Obama has not shown his birth certificate because he does not want to.
Why not? A good question to think about.

Because all they have is wild conjecture and conspiracy theories. He's taking a long term approach to viewing this situation. In the short term people may feel unsure of him and his approval ratings will drop. However, the charade can't continue forever, because the accusations are completely unfounded and can never amount to anything. So eventually, the Republican Party is going to have to back off and say "We were wrong. Sorry for wasting your time."

At this point, some people who bought into this will think that the "truth" was silenced. However, most will realize it was all a big political game. They will feel betrayed by the Republican Party, which commonly says that the Democrats waste everyone's time and money to further their own agenda, something it will be blatantly obvious they were doing all along.

On top of that, Obama does have access to his own birth certificate. If at any time the rumors go too far, or he needs to drum up his popularity before an election, he can choose to reveal it. No court is going to force him to because of the lack of proof. He can pick and choose when revealing that knowledge would be most beneficial to him and his party.

In short, he is giving the Republican Party enough rope to hang themselves. They say he has staked everything on healthcare, whereas they have staked quite a bit on bull$#!t. They have challenged him to a fight they cannot win, and which he can choose the time, place, and severity of their political destruction. The Republican Party has started to realize this, which is why they are now trying to separate themselves from such organizations as World Net Daily, which started these rumors, before the other shoe drops.

Obama has all the power in this situation, and he is savvy enough to know he can sit on it and employ it at his discretion. I think the Republicans bought into their own campaign hype on this one, when they tried to say Obama had almost no political experience. Who would've thought that the rookie junior citizen from Illinois would turn out to be a better politician than the rest of them?

No court has required him to because he had some very talented lawyers getting cases thrown out - not on merits - but technical issues such as standing.
Some courts have not required him to based on what appears to be some kind of bias towards Obama (Judge Land).

Standing is not really a technical issue. It is a requirement to bring a tort case to court, since you have to prove you were harmed directly by the action in order to seek damages. The problem with this is they are trying to accuse him of being guilty of criminal law in a courtroom for tort cases. They are accusing him of breaking constitutional law. But this is criminal law, and carries with it a set penalty which is not determined by a plaintiff, it is determined by a district attorney. It was worth noting that the only people who would have been able to legitimately sue under tort law, his political rivals Hillary Clinton and John McCain, have resources and connections vastly superior to those who have tried to bring the case to court. They both had the matter heavily investigated beforehand, and neither of them found any merit to the claim.

Obama is not in criminal court accused of a crime.
He is being asked to prove he meets the requirements.
There is a difference.

And burden of proof?
You are accused of a crime.
You have evidence that will prove your innocence.
You fail to provide it?
Proves you are an asshole.
All those people getting out of jail after decades due to advances in DNA technology.
If they had that evidence would they have sat on it?
FUCKING HELL NO!!

Criminal and Tort law are two entirely different beasts, with different rules and regulations. They cannot be mixed. If they could people would be suing each other all over the country for the murder of Michael Jackson.

The difference in your exmple is that the prosecution had enough evidence to convince a jury that the defendent had committed the crime. This goes well above and beyond a simple accusation. As such, they would have needed the additional evidence to prove otherwise, because the prosecution actually had a strong case. If you walk into any courtroom in America (or pretty much the entire western world for that matter) and make an unfounded accusation, you get nothing. The defendent has to try to prove his case only so far as the prosecution is unable to prove theirs "beyond a reasonable doubt." Innocent until proven guilty. Anyone that wants to accuse him has to first provide adequete evidence that such a thing is true.

You are accused of a crime.
You have evidence that will prove your innocence.
You fail to provide it?
Spending large sums of money.
You rely on the principle of innocent until proven guilty?
You take the thing through the court till the final verdict?

Defendants usually try to exclude evidence that proves guilt.
Obama is a smart lawyer.
Maybe that is what he is trying to do here...

You've never taken a class on Law have you?

Motion for a directed verdict
A "motion for a directed verdict" asks the court to rule that the plaintiff or prosecutor has not proven the case, and there is no need for the defense to attempt to present evidence. This motion is made after the plaintiff has rested its case, and prior to the defense presenting any evidence. If granted, the court would dismiss the case.

Important parts in italics. Note also that the use of both plaintiff and prosecutor in the legal explanation means it is equally applicable to Tort or Criminal cases. Conjecture has no place in the courtroom. This makes it quite clear that the prosecution must provide evidence of wrongdoing, because if they don't they can expect the defense to file the motion, and walk out of the courtroom. The prosecution has no such evidence. Every piece they have presented in an attempt to get the case taken to court has been immediately shown to be a forgery. They have no proof of anything. With no proof, there is no case.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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The above is a combination of wrong and stupid that may sound good to those who do not wish to think.

No. I'll be generous here: the statement above is highly ironic.

Obama has not shown his birth certificate because he does not want to.
Why not?
A good question to think about.

No. Not really.

No court has required him to because he had some very talented lawyers getting cases thrown out - not on merits - but technical issues such as standing.

No. Judges can't allow the claims without standing to be heard.

Some courts have not required him to based on what appears to be some kind of bias towards Obama (Judge Land).

No. The Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. appointed Judges know the law and what "legal standing" is.

There are numerous instances where the government requires documentation in order to obtain something.
Driver's License - Prove you are older than 16 or no license.

No. The swearing of the President does not require any identification to be presented.

Office of the President
Obama does not have to prove he meets the requirements?????
Why?
Because you are a supporter afraid to find out the truth.
Transparency my ass!
Sounded good during the campaign.

No. Although he promised government transparency, this did not include his personal, private documents.

You don't want to admit you might be wrong.
That goes for every one else here that lacks the common sense to see that he has a reason for not providing his birth certificate.

No. Hawaii provided his legal birth certificate... twice.

And the reason that seems most likely is that whatever the documentation that Hawaii has, favors the position of those who are challenging his qualifications.

No. There is no conspiracy by Hawaii. These are secure records in a secure database.

And burden of proof?
You are accused of a crime.
You have evidence that will prove your innocence.
You fail to provide it?
Proves you are an asshole.

No. You have failed to provide proof. As for being an asshole...

Obama is not in criminal court accused of a crime.
He is being asked to prove he meets the requirements.

No. At least not by normal, sane people.

You are accused of a crime.
You have evidence that will prove your innocence.
You fail to provide it?
Spending large sums of money.
You rely on the principle of innocent until proven guilty?
You take the thing through the court till the final verdict?

No. That's criminal court, not civil court. These complaints are being filed in civil courts.

Defendants usually try to exclude evidence that proves guilt.
Obama is a smart lawyer.
Maybe that is what he is trying to do here...

No. He's running the country, and it's becoming increasingly clear that he is completely ignoring you wingnuts. It's predicable that after the Hawaii Health Department proved that he was a Natural Born Citizen, you wackos began a new angle: that the health department is lying.
 

JTalbain

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No. I'll be generous here: the statement above is highly ironic.
No. Not really.
No. Judges can't allow the claims without standing to be heard.
No. The Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. appointed Judges know the law and what "legal standing" is.
No. The swearing of the President does not require any identification to be presented.
No. Although he promised government transparency, this did not include his personal, private documents.
No. Hawaii provided his legal birth certificate... twice.
No. There is no conspiracy by Hawaii. These are secure records in a secure database.
No. You have failed to provide proof. As for being an asshole...
No. At least not by normal, sane people.
No. That's criminal court, not civil court. These complaints are being filed in civil courts.
No. He's running the country, and it's becoming increasingly clear that he is completely ignoring you wingnuts. It's predicable that after the Hawaii Health Department proved that he was a Natural Born Citizen, you wackos began a new angle: that the health department is lying.

Wow, very clear and concise. Makes me feel long winded. :redface:

It kind of does feel that way at times, Industrialsize. Makes me wish sometimes that everyone was required to take a class on debate or logic at some point in school. It would help with the population's ability as a whole to cut through political bullshit. In the meantime, I can take great joy in knowing that, which enough patience, any wingnut can be revealed for the illojical nutjob they are by merely contradicting them enough times.
 

Trinity

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No. Although he promised government transparency, this did not include his personal, private documents.

Of course it does. John McCain provided his health records and both long and short form birth Certificates.



No. Hawaii provided his legal birth certificate... twice.
Wrong. The state of Hawaii never provided a birth certificate for Obama.

No. There is no conspiracy by Hawaii. These are secure records in a secure database.

Well, that remains to be seen.

No. He's running the country, and it's becoming increasingly clear that he is completely ignoring you wingnuts. It's predicable that after the Hawaii Health Department proved that he was a Natural Born Citizen, you wackos began a new angle: that the health department is lying.

Obama is far from ignoring his massive problem. One person has died connected to his passport records...one of his Czars was connected to his passport records. Obama has spent over a million on legal battles just not to show he meets the constitutional requirement to serve as President as a Natural Born Citizen.

The State of Hawaii Health Department never proved Obama was a Natural Born Citizen.
 

Trinity

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No. Although he promised government transparency, this did not include his personal, private documents.

Of course it does. John McCain provided his health records and both long and short form birth Certificates.

No. Hawaii provided his legal birth certificate... twice.
Wrong. The state of Hawaii never provided a birth certificate for Obama.

No. There is no conspiracy by Hawaii. These are secure records in a secure database.

Well, that remains to be seen.

No. He's running the country, and it's becoming increasingly clear that he is completely ignoring you wingnuts. It's predicable that after the Hawaii Health Department proved that he was a Natural Born Citizen, you wackos began a new angle: that the health department is lying.

Obama is far from ignoring his massive problem. One person has died connected to his passport records...one of his Czars was connected to his passport records. Obama has spent over a million on legal battles just not to show he meets the constitutional requirement to serve as President as a Natural Born Citizen.

The State of Hawaii Health Department never proved Obama was a Natural Born Citizen.