Obama meets Queen Elizabeth today - amidst "Death to Capitalism" protests

jason_els

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She's also a head of state for me. But one that is royal.

Is she superior as human? No. Is she socially superior? Yes.

I'd like to be equal to her as well. But that is just not the case. If someone bows for a royal, it doesn't mean he or she will do everything what the monarch says. It's more a form of politeness and greeting these days. And not so much the: you are superior. (Although I'm aware it does give that message).

Yeah, that makes sense. Here in the US we're citizens. In the UK you're subjects. You have a government-backed class system. That's not a value judgment, btw. How your country runs the government is up to your people and I respect that. There are many advantages to a parliamentary system such as the UK has developed. As I've said many times, please don't ditch the royals because they create far too much fun over here.
 

Wyldgusechaz

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One of the things that pissed me off in my stay in England was that the British people had to pony up 15 quid to stroll thru Buckingham Palace! If I were a retired RAF pilot who risked life and limb to fight the Nazis pver Britain, I should be able to walk up knock on the fucking door and get a free guided tour of the I saved.

Charge us Yanksand
 

jason_els

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One of the things that pissed me off in my stay in England was that the British people had to pony up 15 quid to stroll thru Buckingham Palace! If I were a retired RAF pilot who risked life and limb to fight the Nazis pver Britain, I should be able to walk up knock on the fucking door and get a free guided tour of the I saved.

Charge us Yanksand

I agree. The fees charged are (supposedly) used to pay for the restoration of Windsor following the 1992 fire. I don't know what they go to now.
 

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Ok. Can I say how goddamned HAPPY I am that we have a true gentlemen representing the U.S. - someone who I do not have to secretly feel ashamed about nor embarrassed for? I hope the Brits and Russians and Chinese see that Obama is a decent, sensible, rational guy looking for an equitable solution...

Jimmy Carter was a true gentleman as well...he was decent, sensible and rational...

and the Soviets and Chinese responded really well to him, by walking all over him.

they invaded afghanistan, we boycotted the olympics. the equitable thing to do. :rolleyes:
 
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Yeah, that makes sense. Here in the US we're citizens. In the UK you're subjects. You have a government-backed class system. That's not a value judgment, btw. How your country runs the government is up to your people and I respect that. There are many advantages to a parliamentary system such as the UK has developed. As I've said many times, please don't ditch the royals because they create far too much fun over here.
'...Government-backed class system'?! You've got that wrong.
 

eddyabs

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Believe it or not it was the Queen that initiated the 'hug'!

The Queen scrapped protocol to arrange this visit, it was not in an official capacity. Unusual indeed.

The First Lady and The Queen hit it off, at the end of the luncheon, the Queen joked about their height difference and there were giggles from the two of them.

Then the Queen (this is absolutely unheard of!) placed her arm around Michelle. Michelle did the same with the Queen.

The Queen hugged Michelle Obama!! Brilliant...and really sweet actually.

Here's a pic of the moment!


hug_1377150c.jpg


Edit: Urgent hugflash (LOL) it appears that Michelle may have initiated the hug...the Telegraph reports that the Queen initiated the hug, the Mail that the First Lady initiated the hug!! We must know the truth!! No matter though, it is extraordinary even if Michelle initiated the hug as the Queen obviously returned it! WOW!
 
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MarkLondon

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One of the things that pissed me off in my stay in England was that the British people had to pony up 15 quid to stroll thru Buckingham Palace! If I were a retired RAF pilot who risked life and limb to fight the Nazis pver Britain, I should be able to walk up knock on the fucking door and get a free guided tour of the I saved.

Charge us Yanksand

If you'd done something heroic, odds are you'd have been called into the palace and awarded a medal.

If you're a socially involved citizen involved in local government or charitable work, you're very likely to be invited to a summer garden party.

If you just want to gawk, you pay admission.
 

MarkLondon

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Yeah, that makes sense. Here in the US we're citizens. In the UK you're subjects. <snip> As I've said many times, please don't ditch the royals because they create far too much fun over here.

Sadly, we're no longer subjects of Her Majesty. We're British Citizens now. I think the change was made in the late '70s and had something to do with immigration controls. Being a citizen can (theoretically) be revoked. Being a subject, which was immutable, was a two-way thing, not just some form of serfdom. It imposed a duty of care and protection on the Crown.

It's also an advantage to have a head of state who's not a politician and who sticks around, gaining experience and having a long-term point of view.

There are plenty of anti-monarchists here, most of them left-wing. To them I just say "President-for-life Thatcher"!
 
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dong20

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Sadly, we're no longer subjects of Her Majesty. We're British Citizens now. I think the change was made in the late '70s and had something to do with immigration controls. Being a citizen can (theoretically) be revoked. Being a subject, which was immutable, was a two-way thing, not just some form of serfdom. It imposed a duty of care and protection on the Crown.

On its face I'd agree with that but if one looks deeper I don't think it's quite so clear cut - in that there are two elements to consider; immigration law and the constitution.

Immigration:

Yes, the term 'citizen' is used in Immigration legislation (and in passports which refer to British Citizen if you are one) but this is primarily (but not exclusively) to distinguish between 'immigration' statuses. In this example those which can and cannot be acquired - i.e. the former can, the latter not other than under a handful of unusual circumstances.

The 1981 British Nationality Act all but precluded the status of 'Subject' from being afforded in favour of Citizen. It still can under a handful of unususual circumstances. A status of British 'Subject' is also something that can now no longer be 'passed on' - although again, there are rare exceptions.

There are also a handful of other 'categories' of citizenship which can be aquired.

Constitution:

Courts are charged with protecting the rights of citizens, not merely with enforcing the will of a 'state' against its 'subjects'. However, there is no single piece of legislation [that I'm aware of] that formerly, legally and unequivocally revokes the constitutional status of 'subject' in favour of 'citizen'. The UK is not, as yet a republic.

That said, I can't disagree that citizenship is the De Facto status, but iMO in a non immigration context constitutionally Citizens remain De Jure subjects. In the end, it's perhaps primarily a matter of semantics.

It's also an advantage to have a head of state who's not a politician and who sticks around, gaining experience and having a long-term point of view.

No argument there.
 

swordfishME

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Michele Obama hugged Mrs. Glucksberg? Did she not realize that the woman has probably never even been hugged by her own children let alone virtual strangers? :eek:
 

B_Artful Dodger

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The protocol is that Americans bow to nobody unless the bow is expected to be returned (as in Japan).
As far as I'm concerned President Obama did quite the right thing in bowing to the Queen. Ive never heard of this rule that Americans are exempt from respectful courtesy and can think of loads Americans who have had no difficulty with it.

It's like the old military saying, "You salute the rank, not the man (or woman).
If that is indeed the case then clearly a bow is required. There are very few people these days who equal or exceed the Queen in rank and the President of the United States is certainly not one of them.

One of the things that pissed me off in my stay in England was that the British people had to pony up 15 quid to stroll thru Buckingham Palace!
Of course you do. Its her home :confused: Do u let randomers off the street "stroll" through your house?
 

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As far as I'm concerned President Obama did quite the right thing in bowing to the Queen. Ive never heard of this rule that Americans are exempt from respectful courtesy and can think of loads Americans who have had no difficulty with it.


If that is indeed the case then clearly a bow is required. There are very few people these days who equal or exceed the Queen in rank and the President of the United States is certainly not one of them.

1. Being exempt from respect and courtesy we are not. Being uninterested and defering to someone as superior to them because of an absurd "god given right" or by the "grace of god" is quite another.

i would not bow to any sovereign. last i checked, several thousand americans died in order to make sure we never had to bow to a British Monarch, no matter how warm our relations are with our British friends.

Rspect and courtesy? absolutely. Here is a polite handshake, a smile and a "how do you do?"

2. The President of the United States does not exceed the Queen in rank? LOL.

The Queen has no real power, is merely nothing more than a symbolic figurehead and is unelected. She derives her "rank" from a line of people who are alleged to have been appointed sovereign by God...in which case, where is the proof?

Since she is unelected, receives her title through hereditary means, which has no proof of any spiritual reason for their line being chosen to be "royal" i would say her rank is nothing more then ceremonial.

The President of the United States derives his title and authority by the power of the people who select him and there are far more people who vote for the President than even inhabit Great Britain and its possessions.

spare us the additional nonsense.

she and the royal family serve a very nice ceremonial and important symbolic purpose to their people...but let us not say that their "rank", when they have done nothing to achieve it, is somehow higher than others who have earned it and who in fact hold far more power.
 

pym

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Much ado about nothing.....What's the big deal about offering a show of respect to someone in the fashion that they are accustomed to?
When i went to Korea, the ENTIRE factory Bowed to there seniors in passing.....every time. I took it upon myself to do the same in the interest of promoting good-will and respect on behalf of the company that i represented. I was rewarded greatly by the Korean's too. During a lag waiting for a shipment of nessasary items, I was given extraordinary hospitality. I saw sites of great cultural interest and was taken out EVERY night to enjoy Korean Drinking "CULTURE", something that has to be experianced to understand.....GUNG BAI! A whole system of showing respect just within drinking goes on! Proper pouring techniques and how to hold your glass even.
A small token of respect. Look at the outpouring of goodwill that the world is showing our leadership right now.
I believe that the world is on the brink of something fantastic.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Jesus... and what harm was done to America for Obama bowing to the Queen? Absolutely none. He's in their country, so what is so wrong with doing what everyone else does? It show a level of understanding and respect for other people and their beliefs.

But try and say anything else to the hyper-patriotic fanboys of our country... Demanding respect without giving any in return. "I'm from America so I don't have to take shit from anyone."

Absolutely ridiculous. How fragile must your ego be to let something like this bother you?
 
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Believe it or not it was the Queen that initiated the 'hug'!

The Queen scrapped protocol to arrange this visit, it was not in an official capacity. Unusual indeed.

The First Lady and The Queen hit it off, at the end of the luncheon, the Queen joked about their height difference and there were giggles from the two of them.

Then the Queen (this is absolutely unheard of!) placed her arm around Michelle. Michelle did the same with the Queen.

The Queen hugged Michelle Obama!! Brilliant...and really sweet actually.

Here's a pic of the moment!


View attachment 59603

Edit: Urgent hugflash (LOL) it appears that Michelle may have initiated the hug...the Telegraph reports that the Queen initiated the hug, the Mail that the First Lady initiated the hug!! We must know the truth!! No matter though, it is extraordinary even if Michelle initiated the hug as the Queen obviously returned it! WOW!

it would appear in that picture that the queen has her hand on that linebacker's ass, LOL.
 

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We're not different. That's the point. We acknowledge, "no foreign sovereign, potentate, or ruler," to be superior as an American is only sovereign to himself. She may be royalty to you (not sure where you live), but to us she is only a head of state. She is not superior because of crown, birth, or blood. Bowing is an indication of subservience in these situations; an acknowledgment of superiority as the queen does not curtsy in return. When two leaders of sovereign countries meet, they meet as equals. Monarchs do not ever bow or curtsy to each other either. An American official representing the United States does not act subservient to anyone as they are not our masters.

This has been official US protocol since the very beginning of the country. It is expected that representatives of the United States give and receive physical greetings such as are the custom of the land they travel to so long as such greetings are expected to be reciprocated in kind and do not demonstrate servility. Bowing or curtsying to the queen does that so we (officially) do not.

It may shock you to know that Americans do not acknowledge royalty beyond the role they represent in their country's government. Our government was formed under the proposition, "... that all men are created equal." That's the official position of the United States as that phrase is enshrined in our first document, The Declaration of Independence of the United States. The Constitution of the United States goes on to enhance this by saying:
No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.
As you can imagine, when all this was written anti-monarchist sentiment was very high, however it was not lost on Americans that a good many people fought and died against the very crown Obama is (now) bowing to and so the whole, Americans bow to nobody thing came into being and that has never changed. The newly minted country couldn't very well send ambassadors to Britain and then have them bowing and scraping to various lords and the king. It would have infuriated the American people no end.

A private American citizen can do whatever he or she likes including accepting foreign titles.

perfectly stated as always jas
 

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One of the things that pissed me off in my stay in England was that the British people had to pony up 15 quid to stroll thru Buckingham Palace! If I were a retired RAF pilot who risked life and limb to fight the Nazis pver Britain, I should be able to walk up knock on the fucking door and get a free guided tour of the I saved.

Charge us Yanksand

I agree, especially considering that one RAF pilot, out of ammo, saw a German bomber heading for Buckingham Palace (which had apparently already been hit twice on earlier raids against London)

in a selfless act, he *RAMMED* the bomber with his Hawker, slicing the bomber's tail off. the bomber crashed, and so did the RAF Hawker...but the RAF pilot, badly injured, bailed out in time, and survived.

he should have been able to walk in, shuffle into the kitchen, grab some dinner, use the squash courts and the hot tub whenever he wanted IMO :biggrin1: