Obama plans to tackle thorny immigration issue

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Apr 9, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    I can't get over this president's gumption. According to the New York Times, Obama will tackle yet another large issue starting next month... the thorny, devisive issue of illegal immigration.


    Conservative Pat Buchanan was on MSNBC this morning predicting doom for Obama and democrats: "I'm telling you, they will face a bloodbath if he tries to legalize 12 miilion illegal aliens!" (Buchanan always gets hyped up talking about giving citizenship to longtime illegal immigrants, it's now his signature issue; Buchanan brought up the specter of double digit unemployment possibly coming down the pike). On one side, we get the same words "comprehensive" and "compassion", on the other side, "open borders" and "amnesty" just like before.

    Shouldn't we, as a nation, come to some workable solution after kicking this can down the road for well over a decade now?

    Is this such a "risky" move? Aren't hispanics already over 15% of the U.S population? (45.4 million) and the fastest growing minority? Didn't the president get elected with large hispanic support, promising an immigration solution? Is it possible to give 12 million+ illegal immigrants a pathway to citizenship (the ones who've been here for years), yet block or stem the tide of additional immigrants coming in illegally? Is doing nothing better than attempting something?


    We are in a recession, but I heard one democrat say on cable news this morning that no new workers will be added to the workforce that are not already here.


    --------------------


    The New York Times:

    Obama to Push Immigration Bill as One Priority


    "I know this is an emotional issue; I know it’s a controversial issue,” Obama told an audience at a town meeting on March 18 in Costa Mesa, Calif. “I know that the people get real riled up politically about this." But immigrants, he says, who are long-time residents but lack legal status “have to have some mechanism over time to get out of the shadows.”

    “It just doesn’t seem rational that any political leader would say, let’s give millions of foreign workers permanent access to U.S. jobs when we have millions of Americans looking for jobs,” said Roy Beck, executive director of NumbersUSA, a group that favors reduced immigration. Mr. Beck predicted that Mr. Obama would face “an explosion” if he proceeded this year. “It’s going to be, ‘You’re letting them keep that job, when I could have that job,’ ” he said.
     
    #1 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Apr 9, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  2. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Hispanics and illegals are not one and the same... yet you conveniently (and once again) pull out a race card. Shocker.

     
  3. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    face: Many (legal) hispanics voted for Obama, partly, on the promise of the "pathway to citizenship" regarding illegals.

    What "race card" am I playing? I tried to lay out the coming immigration fight as dispassionately as I can.
     
  4. joyboytoy79

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    Like it or not, face, the issue of "illegal immigration" is almost solely centered on people coming across the Mexican border. Since "Hispanic" refers to anyone who speaks Spanish as a native language and who is not from Spain, everyone from south of the Rio Grande (with the exception of Belizians who speak Pidgen English) and north of the Panama Canal is "Hispanic." Much to your chagrin, i'm sure, this label is not a racial one. There simply is no "Hispanic Race."

    To be sure, Mexico alone has sizeable populations of Native Americans (like my brother-in-law, who is Nahuat), Blacks, Germans(Like Freida Kahlo, for instance), Russians, Italians, Poles, Romanians, and even Arabs. All of these people are considered "Hispanic" because Spanish is their native language and they are not from Spain.

    So.... who's bringing up the race card?
     
  5. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

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    some of my best friends are _________

    a) black
    b) jewish
    c) gay
    d) hispanic
    e) white
    f) all of the above
     
  6. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Faceking: You play more race cards than a blackjack dealer in Vegas. Seriously, can the melodrama!
     
  7. midlifebear

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    First, the race card. Being Hispanic has nothing to do with race. True. You win. Ten points!

    However, not to split hairs (but I'm gonna) Hispanic pointedly refers to ancient Hispania (the Iberian Peninsula) which in the English Language is called Spain. And you are partially correct, in modern English usage of the term Hispanic is used to describe any people or country formerly ruled by Spain where the primary or co-language spoken is Spanish, but it does not exclude Spain. If it did exclude Spain, then Juan Carlos (the current token King of Spain and popular unofficial ambassador of Spain) would not have been a primary player in the Hispano Mundo Summit in Santiago, Chile, two years ago where he yelled in righteous indignation at Hugo Chaves ¡¿Por que no te callas?!,"Why don't you shut up?" which elicitied great applause. He yelled this in defense of José Luis Rodríquez Zapatero, the currently Socialist Prime Minister of Spain, also in attendance who Chavez kept interrupting and would not let finish his address to the Summit members. When my cell phone rings, it's a clear recording of Juan Carlos loudly yelling ¡¿Por que no te callas?!, which is something I wish it always did (my phone, not Hugo Chavez . . . but maybe him, too).

    As for Belizians, even though British Honduras was never part of the Spanish Empire, over 44% of the population speaks Spanish as a first language, so those speakers of Spanish are considered, by linguists, to be Hispanic. But not everyone in Belize is Hispanic. However, everyone in the USA whose family ties either go back to the original Spanish land grants (California, Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas) or those whose ancestors as recent as yesterday migrated legally or illegally to the USA and where Spanish is spoken in the home as the primary language, is Hispanic. I know. It's just not fair. It seems in the Americas only Brazlians are exempt from the status of being Hispanic. See end of post.

    As for your brother-in-law he either speaks Pipil (known by speakers of Pibil as Nawat) or he speaks Nahuatl. Nawat is a smaller dialect branch of Nahuatl which is a larger branch of the Uto-Aztecan family of languages. If your brother speaks Nawat (Pibil) instead of Nahuatl, then he most likely was born in the States Tobasco, Chiapas, or Veracruz where Pibil is still spoken by a real small minority of mestizos (less than 2,000 speakers). If not, he's speaking Nahuatl -- again, it's really a matter of splitting hairs. And good for him, because he still most likely speaks fluent Spanish and is therefore considered Hispanic.

    Where you get into real trouble is with the term Latino. Italians are Latino. Brazilians are Latino. Mexicans are Latino. So, you see, that particular designation (which is generally accepted by the majority of Latinos as a positive thing) isn't solely dependent upon being from Méxco, Central, or South America.

    And finally, Hispanics born in the USA are, by extension, Latinos.

    The majority of illegal Hispanics currently making their way into the USA are not Mexican. They are most often Central American from El Salvador, Honduras, or Guatemala. Especially Guatemala. There's no question that a huge number of Mexican migrant workers show up to pick crops in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, but the majority of the agricultural workers are in the USA legally, with work permits, and prefer to return home when the growing and harvest seasons are over. (Is that majority 51%? ¿Quién sabe?) Contrary to popular myth, Mexicans really like the fact they are Mexican and are not only proud of their heritage, they also prefer to live in their native country, too. The USA's biggest illegal immigration problem is with Central Americans. Uh, and for those who don't know, México is not part of Central America. It is part of North America. Just like Canada.

    Regardless, I hope not much is done except to help México get it's narcotrfficos under control during Obama's first 4 years. You all realize, don't you, that illegal workers have taxes taken from their paychecks just like everyone else? I'm certain there are a small percentage that fall below the radar, but far more have taxes withdrawn from their paychecks than those who may not. :wink:
     
    #7 midlifebear, Apr 10, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  8. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    not quite

    I have heard the argument that the reason California is in the mess it's in is because of it's State income tax

    to avoid paying that tax, immigrants are paid "under the table"

    consequently, the State of California then doles out massive socialist transfers, for which it does not have the tax base to fund

    which differs from the practice in Texas, which has no income tax -- the State relies on sales taxes, which means that EVERYONE who steps into the State and purchases, contributes to the tax base, including the immigrant, who also, does not rely as heavily on the socialist State teat, as is done in Cali

    so the social tensions and divisions that arise as a result in California, do not obtain in Texas
     
  9. midlifebear

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    Dear Nick666, sugar booger:

    For once I won't jump all over your shit. There is some real truth to "what you've heard" but the majority of those illegals who don't pay California State Income Tax or Federal Taxes by being paid "under the table" primarily work in sweatshops as slave laborers. They are still a minority of the illegal workers succeeding elsewhere. And these jobs tend to be in the city centers of San Diego and Los Angeles manufacturing stuff like clothing, housing construction (kiss those jobs goodbye for now) and domestic work; basically, small businesses and individuals who have no problem working under the radar of immigration. Still, they pay rent and purchase stuff just like most folks and are therefore paying incredibly high sales tax on everything from Cheetos to imported Mes'cun beer (my favorite).

    Currently, the US Government and the Department of Agriculture have bent over backwards to acccommodate seasonal migrant workers (who are not US citizens) for the benefit of large agriculture. The last time I flew back to the USA after a month vacation in Antigua and the highlands of Guatemala, I was automatically seated in first class without asking or dipping into sky miles, because 90% of tourist class (or so said the flight attendant) were Guatemalans being airlifted by a labor broker to the United States on a Delta 767 that had seen better days. It's a common practice.

    As for California's problems with illegal migration, they brought it upon themselves. The jobs in machiladoras on the Mexican side of "la línea" pay well enough that the majority of Mexicans working in them can make a reasonable living without having to deal with all the crap that illegals end up suffering. Just ask them. I have. Still, the conditions under which they toil are deplorable and would not be tolerated in the USA. Hence, the USA keeps manufacturing facilities OSHA would not allow to operate inside the USA just within arms reach just across the border. And you haven't seen brutality until you've witnessed the top of a train car cleared off of "illegals" by Mexican Immigration Officials in Chiapas. At least the USA treats these same people as if they are human beings and not animals (most of the time).
     
    #9 midlifebear, Apr 10, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  10. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    yes, very tragic

    I've learned to feel a great deal of respect and sympathy for those in that plight, mostly very hard-working, quiet, dignified, gentle God-fearing souls
     
  11. AUS-WA

    AUS-WA New Member

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    This is what happens when you elect a people-pleasing president.
     
  12. MovingForward

    MovingForward Member

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    I agree most people being paid underneath the table are being paid less than minimum wage. I know a guy who made 5.75 as a dishwasher last year. Then there is my late partner who was here in this country illegal for 14 years. He worked as a bank teller and filed his taxes just like everyone else. When he arrived he was given a social security number and on it ( not for work) well he used it for work and I guess since he never was arrested and paid his taxes on time the government didn't really care.

    So correct me if I am wrong, didnt during the primary they discuss allowing some sort of amnesty, just that it would cost money to apply and they would have to be charged a penalty fee? Also would the money help stimulate the economy?
     
  13. D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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    How about starting with enforcment current laws and finish building the fence. You want economic stimulus? Hire more border patrol and ICE.
     
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