Obama: Reaching out to enemies makes sense

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Apr 20, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    1
    I am proud of my president and proud of his policies to extend a hand across political and ideological divides throughout the world. I don't believe he's anybody's sucker or anybody's fool, but he knows the old (republican) ways of mindlessly attacking enemies do not work, have not worked.


    In Europe, at the G-20 Summit, Obama reached out to Russian President Dmitri Medvedev, talked about an arms deal cutting nuclear warheads below levels agreed in 2002 on the sidelines of that conference, agreed to meet Medvedev in Russia, possibly in July.

    In Europe, also at that G-20 Summit, Obama reached out to Chinese President Hu Jintao, talked about North Korea and "human rights issues". Hu invited Obama to come to China, with a trip tentatively planned for the second half of the year.

    ----------

    This is from the Associated Press:

    Obama's move this week to ease travel and some other restrictions for Cuban-Americans brought an unprecedented reply from Havana. Raul Castro, who took over from his ailing brother, Fidel, a year ago, offered to talk to the Obama administration about all outstanding grievances.

    Speaking from a meeting Chavez hosted in Venezuela, Raul Castro declared: "We have sent word to the U.S. government in private and in public that we are willing to discuss everything — human rights, freedom of the press, political prisoners, everything."

    ----------

    Here is Newt Gingrich, speaking to TODAY’s Meredith Vieira about Obama’s reaching out to leaders from Cuba and Venezuela at the Summit of the Americas:


    Meredith: Do you think he should not be trying to mend relationships with other world leaders?

    Newt: How do you mend relationships with somebody who hates your country, who actively calls for the destruction of your country, and who wants to undermine you?

    Meredith: We've certainly mended relationships with countries that've hated us in the past. Russia comes to mind, China comes to mind...

    Newt: But we didn't rush over, smile, and greet Russian dictators, we understood who they were. You can talk, I'm not against him talking to Chavez, but I think you have to talk to Chavez in a cold and distant way, because Chavez openly, constantly attacks the United States. Just as the Iranians are building a nuclear weapon every day and smiling at them doesn't slow the nuclear weapon down a bit.

    Meridith: You have called the Obama administration the "most radical left-wing administration in american history with a fantasy foreign policy that has no connection to reality"...

    msnbc.com Video Player


    ----------


    In other words, republicans are offering up no new ideas, no innovative, bold solutions for breaking out of the current stalemates and impasses with the various "Evil Empires", rogue regimes. Of course Chavez verbally attacks the United States. Chavez is a proud, egotistical latin american president who reacts to all the mindless bating from republicans. You have to meet him halfway. Continue to attack him, he'll dish out more of the same.

    Republicans are literally offering up the same warmed-over leftover "policies" they've held, in some cases, for decades. It's time for a fresh start, a revivifying approach.
     
  2. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Cuba needs credit. They have defaulted on all their debt. They have no alternatives. Why not release imprisoned dissidents as an answer to Obama opening Cuba to travel?

    Nope, you aren't likely to see that.

    Chavez is a dictator. He supports drug runners, terrorists. What has he done to warrant inclusion as a credible leader?

    Why do we have to make the first move? Chavez gives Obama the leftist book "Open Veins of Latin America." Obamam should have given it back and said "No, thank you, we don't believe in leftist (or right wing) dictatorship."

    What do the impoverished people of Venezuela or Cuba gain from a Chavez/Castro dictatorhip which America validates?


     
  3. Flashy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    8,097
    Likes Received:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    at home
     
  4. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    I can't dismiss what flashy says because a lot of it is true. There are good things presidents do and bad things too. Not all are great foreign policy geniuses or have a kind roll of the dice.

    We do need to institute dialogue with all our enemies though I hesitate to call Venezuela an enemy as they are in no position to do anything other than make bellicose speeches. Chavez is playing politics for his own audience, not for us and responding to him simply gives him more ammunition to stoke the flames of anti-American sentiment in South America. By engaging in talks, we appear to be taking the high road, we appear to be looking for peaceful solutions, we appear to be the more noble party. American policy works best when we realize that Teddy Roosevelt was only partially right when he said, "Speak softly and carry a big stick." The corollary to that is, "The bigger your stick, the more softly you need to speak." America is a lumbering giant in the world and whether we're beneficent as Gulliver or arrogant as Pantagruel, we still are an object of fear just because of our sheer mass. Most countries in the world live with the US as an uncertain neighbor. I think it's difficult for Americans to understand what it is to live in nations that have felt exploited by American interests and know that the US could invade and overthrow your government if it really wanted to. The US has to expect that everyone always throws darts at the top dog, justified or no. To react in fear or contempt is infantile and ideological without serving the best interests of the US. Nothing is ever accomplished without communication and so long as we offer communication, we have opportunity and taking advantage of opportunity is the basis of successful foreign policy.
     
  5. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Let's see . . . um, where to begin . . . oh, I know The United Fruit Company. That's a good place to start regarding the relations of Central and South America and the USA in history, when a HUGE American Corporation had pretty much enslaved the native residents of Honduras, Columbia, Ecuador, The West Indies, and Costa Rica for the benefit of the average 'Mericuhn family table just so little 'Mericuhn children such as darling Timmy and cute Jane could have affordable bananas whenever they liked. The company actively, out in the open, supported legislation in these and other Central American countries that prevented the citizens -- especially the original indigenous land owners -- from owning the land which United Fruit bribed local officials to sell and sometimes outright give them, thus preventing the original owners of the land the means to raise their own crops and compete with United Fruit. Standard Brands was also at fault. So, 'Mericuhn interests had a great influence in supporting right wing dictatorships as early as the 1800's. But the Guzchaz-o-rama wouldn't know anything about that. But that's where the term Banana Republic originated.

    Things didn't change much until 1954, when Guatemalans democratically elected Colonel Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, who was quickly and illegally overthrown by USA trained military forces then the shadow government of the USA installed Carlos Castillos Armas as the new president after the US-supported military coup. Seems United Fruit (whose rich 'Mericuhn investors were legion AND famous) had convinced first starting with Truman and the finally with Eisenhower that Guzmán was going to allay Guatemala with "evil Communists" because he legally won the slot of President on an open Socialist platform. But 'Mericuhns have never been any good at telling the difference between Communisim and Socialism. People still can't. Basically because they are dumb and unable to learn.

    This coup (the CIA actually tried to assassinate Guzmán, but failed). Is not "leftest" revisionist history, but well-documented fact admitted to by none other than the CIA itself. The United Fruit Company also had vast sugar cane land holdings in Cuba, from which none of the native Cubans who worked their asses off cultivating sugar for the United Fruit Company could make even a subsistence living.

    The overthrow of Guzmán in Guatemala was the beginning of a 35 year civil war which wiped out entire tribes of indigenous Guatemalans who were only trying to make a subsistence living raising corn, squash, and what little else they could.The USA supported the Guatemala conservative right wing dictatorship until about 1985.

    John Foster Dulles, that "great 'Mericuhn, who served as Eisenhower's Secretary of State was also a major partner in the law firm of Sullivan and Cromwell that represented The United Fruit Company. John's brother, Allen, was head of the CIA at the time, and John Moors Cabot brother of the Assistant Secretary of State for InterAmerican Affairs, had been President of the United Fruit Company at the time. By the way, there was never nor has there ever been any evidence that legally and democratically elected President Guzmán had any connections with communists or any communist manifesto. He simply felt that Guatemala rightfully belonged to Guatemalans and that the policy of major land reform, returning the land to its original owners, the Guatemalan people, was the proper thing to do. And it was. But for some reason the USA felt it was necessary to protect 'Mericuhn interests in a foreign country where that 'Mericuhn interest had appropriated by slaughtering the original land owners and enslaving the rest. God bless 'Mericuh. Currently what's left of United Fruit Company is known as Chaquita Brands International.

    More to come:
     
    #5 midlifebear, Apr 20, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  6. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    And here is some of the more.

    In Honduras, Ramon Villeda Morales, became the democratically elected elected president, but even poor Ramon was considered too much of an unknown by the information provided by the CIA to the President of the United States. So, the CIA waltzed in an overthrew a democratically elected president and installed and then continued to support a series of right wing conservative military dictatorships, all trained, armed and supported by the USA until 1981. But Guzchaz wouldn't know about that, either, because (I suspects it's because he can't read, but he can type words . . . ?). Suazo Córdova won the presidency of "open" elections and presided over what are known by splitting hairs "an authoritarian conservative military regime." Again, it was a repressive right wing conservative regime and proudly supported by Reagan. At the moment, Honduras has a democratically elected president with Manuel Zalaya holding together a rather weak political coalition. The military suppression has mostly stopped, but not entirely. Honduras (which was a United Fruit Company stronghold) is currently trying to rebuild it's infrastructure which was first completely destroyed in 1972 during an earthquake and Hurricane Mitch in 1986. The money that was borrowed by Honduras from the IMF has mostly gone to pay government employees while approximately 6 or 7% has actually been used to invest in the country's people and infrastructure. Agrarian economies don't raise much in taxes. So, under the stewardship of a Republican US President, it wouldn't take much to return Honduras back into a repressive right wing conservative regime. Because the Republicans, more than the Democrats, have shown that to be one of their foreign policy fortés.

    You remember Reagan, don't you Guzchaz? Anyway, a guy I'm sure you thinks is a great 'Mericuhn patriot, Ollie North, well, long before Ollie got himself mixed up in the Iran/Contra Affair, in 1909 the USA Marines shipped off and occupied Nicaraugua supplying military support for right wing conservative-led forces against then President Zelaya, yet another democratically elected president in Central America. The "interests" they were supporting were those interested in building a Nicaraguan Canal. Over 500 Nicaraguan citizens where shot by the Marines to help "stabilize" the situation. And the Marines continued to keep Nicaragua "destabilized" until 1933. You see, the USA thought it had a "right" to interfere with the sovereignty of another nation for the USA's own interests, a canal connecting the pacific and the Atlantic. And eventually the USA installed a guy named Sacasa until the USA was able to install the Somoza family as the "stabilizing" democratic leaders of that country. At first, the USA backed a guy named Somoza as the next president, and he sort of won until he was assassinated by a populist (not a communist or a socialist) poet named Peréz. Well, the temerity! What business did Nicaraguans have foisting their own coups. That was the job of the US Marines! A guy name Luis Somoza deBayle became the next president, but died of a heart attack. However, the USA liked the Somoza family so much that our government worked diligently to make certain more Somozas would be presidents. In fact, the USA liked the authoritarian right wing conservative regime the Somoza's were so good at that the USA supported them whole heartedly from 1936 to 1979. Boy, howdy. USA Foreign Policy LOVED the Somozas!

    You can read up on what happened to the Somozas, yourself, Guzchaz. That is if you really can read and don't get all of your information from talk radio.

    At the moment The Squeeze and I are getting our place in Argentina ready to rent for six months to a family sponsored by a BIG 'Mericuhn coorporation as one of their neato keeno executives comes down here, learns Spanish (what a joke) and manages whatever he's supposed to manage. More likely, the Argentines will manage him. But I might add that the USA was a BIG supporter of the military junta, a right wing conservative military regime NOT democratically elected, that "disappeared" people from 1974 until 1981. And the USA was a really, really, really, BIG supporter of that right wing conservative military dictatorship that cost the lives of at least 30,000 innocent Argentine citizens who usually did nothing but know somebody who thought the military should hand the reigns of the government back to the people so they could reinstate democracy. The USA wasn't about to let just anybody reinstate democracy down here. The CIA, with the help of the IMF persuaded Nixon, Ford, Carter, and Reagan to let them choose who would should be the democratically elected president of Argentina. The USA was supporting and handing money over to the Argentine right wing conservative military regime hand over fist. Then, in a last ditch effort to supposedly "win" popular support, the military regime foisted a pithy war with England over the Malvinas . . . uh, excuse me, in English and England they are known as the Falklands. The USA backed away from Argentina during that "conflict" and Argentines were able to finally wrench their government back into their own hands all by themselves. There have been some mighty rough times down here in Argentina, but no one has been "disappeared" since 1981. And they are actually finding and prosecuting old military personnel responsible for running the juntas just about every week.

    However, during basically that time Salvador Allende Gossmans, the democratically elected president of in Chile in 1970 and avowed Marxist had great relations with Cuba and was building up the Chilean military with Soviet-built stuff. God forbid. Granted, Allende wasn't the best example of a president committed to upholding democratic values, but the USA decided that they'd had enough with these pesky South Americans. After all, didn't South America know that the USA, the greatest country on the face of the earth, knew what was best for all of them? Again, the temerity! So the CIA (you can always count on them) put together a communication package saturating the airwaves with why Allende was bad and had to go. Mind you, Chileans weren't stupid. They wanted to elect his ass out of office ASAP, too. But it was the CIA that led a political coup and installed a man named Agusto Pinochet (you pronounce the t). And what did Pinochet oversee? He ran a right-wing conservative dictatorship that killed at least 1,000 people the first year he served as "president". By the time he had clung to 16 years as president he had killed at least (by the most modest estimates) another 2,000+ folks, including some 'Mericuhns, who found him to be worse than Allende. Chile was not a fun place to be. But by god, the USA was 100% firmly behind this Pinochet person who ran a right-wing conservative dictatorship.
    When he finally died in 2006, the democratic government now in place in Chile (no thanks to the USA) had a difficult time stopping the entire country from threatening to topple the existing government if Pinochet was allowed a military-government sponsored funeral. So, they sort of quickly stuffed him in a tomb somewhere before anyone really noticed.

    So, Guzchaz, you stupid goddamn ignorant slut!. You have no idea what's going on in the world. You certainly have no knowledge you're willing to admit to when it comes to the USA's foreign policies in Central and Latin America. Everyone on this continent (the South American Continent) is much more aware of what a grand standing fool Chavez tends to be. And it won't be the USA who'll have to rush to Venezuela's "rescue" to put a cork in him. All of South America is quite capable of taking care of Chavez if and when he gets out of hand and becomes a threat to the MERCOSUR coalition of countries. MERCOSUR -- go look it up. And it will be Brazil that puts the pressure on any shenanigans that might occur because of Chavez's grand standing.

    And while you're doing nothing, go revisit the history of what actually happened during the Iran/Contra affair. The "sandanista" leader that everyone was so worried about during that moment in Nicaragua's history eventually became a democratically elected president of Nicaragua despite the CIA's best efforts to prevent him. And during his presidency he did not run a repressive conservative right wing government. And then he lost to some other schmuck who is stuck with an economy that was initially crippled by USA business interests going as far back as the late 1800's.

    And while you're catching up on your Central and South American history, go stuff your face with bananas.
     
    #6 midlifebear, Apr 20, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  7. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    Tell them about Hawaii and Panama/Columbia.

    And why do you support Argentina's claim to the Falklands over the UK's? Why not the French, Spanish, or Americans?
     
    #7 jason_els, Apr 20, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  8. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Gosh your hatred of America is clear. Typical blame America first left wing neo rad. America has done nothing good for anyone. Get the hell out we don't need bitter shrews like you.
     
  9. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Gosh Guzchaz, did I hit a nerve? You're the one who spoke for everyone saying that Obama should have handed Chavez his book back and said "No, thank you, we don't believe in leftist (or right wing) dictatorship." I think it's rather obvious that the USA quite often believes in leftist (or right wing) dictatorships. Otherwise, why have we helped topple so many stable South American democracies and replace with with what you think we don't support?

    No, I believe the USA does a lot of good. I just KNOW FOR A FACT that you're a clueless loser. Suggestion: Instead of romping about on political forums, go read some history books.
     
  10. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    I promise I have read more history books and understand America better than a bitter old gay like you. A lot of that stuff occured under Democrat Presidents so save me your bitter cronish diatribe. Understanding why we made errors is important and to not duplicate them. In the context of the cold war we made lots of mistakes, Mr. JFK being one of the worst. And Truman and Johnson and Clinton and Nixon and Bush 1 and 2. It isn't fucking cut and dried. Anyone can look back in handsight and dissect in their bitter neo rad anger and blame America but go deeper and realize why.

    Really tell me what you like about America. You seem to hate the average "mericuhn by denigrating him with that weird slang. Try the word *American.* I bet you can't. If you can't tell us why you love America all you are is a bitter old man. I bet you waon't praise all the good we have done bvecause you pander like a lap dog to the blame America, blame Israel first crowd of East Coast, European and Bay Area psuedo intellectuals.

    If not, please move to somewhere you might like. Lets hear it. Tell us what you cherish about America.
     
    #10 Wyldgusechaz, Apr 20, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  11. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,477
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    73
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
    Peace.

    Love.

    Jerry.
     
  12. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,477
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    73
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
    you forgot anti-America and anti-Caucasian.
     
  13. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Jason of the Els: You cute little bugger! Yeah, Hawaii's is a sad history. And it took Clinton to finally apologize to a dead queen and her leftover subjects for the indignities foisted upon the people of those islands because of the misdeeds of "white" businessmen.

    Having recently been to Panama, I'm of the opinion they are doing quite well, despite the fact most 'Mericuhns believe Carter should never have agreed to hand over the canal. But that particular part of Central America was also a no-man's-land before and during the building to the canal.

    Columbia? When? In the 1800's? Yeah, that was another example of USA Imperialism that left nothing but death, destruction, and authoritarianism in its wake. The current drug war that was started by Reagan in the 1980's is still a major problem. I'm waiting for the US to ask Evo Morales to tell his people to quit raising coca in Bolivia. Yeah, That's going to go over real well. It's not the Bolivians that have the cocaine problem. Amusingly, if you are a native Argentine it is legal to have a plastic bag of a couple of ounces of coca leaves (and the lyme to chew them with) in your desk drawer in your office. And for anyone who has been to Bolivia, well it's rather difficult breathing at 10,000 feet all day long. Even modern jet aircraft spit up blood because of the thin air as they take off and land on the longest tarmac in the world. (They say Area 51 is longer, but I've seen both.)

    As for the Malvinas not being the Falklands, I've yet to see any globe or map in Spanish identify the Malvinas as anything but the Malvinas. When Brown met with Cristina last month his first item was that there would be no talks about "the Falklands." To which Cristina calmly replied, in perfect English, "And there will be no discussion of your country's supposed fishing rights or boundary claims that you have in the South Georgian Antartic." And that was that. Currerntly, the UK is keeping a distance from the fisheries down and around the southern tip of South America. Chil has a few issues with the UK, too. And even Chile (Chile and Argentina are famous for being diplomatically undiplomatic) produces books and maps that note the two main islands and surrounding bits of rock are "Las Malvinas." Considering they are only 300 miles off the coast of southern Argentina, you'd think the English would concede. But if you want to live a life of luxurious welfare and are a subject of The Queen, move to the Falklands. Among the slightly more than 3,100 residents who maintain that "English" is their native language, the area's annual GDP is about U$S75,000,000 or somewhere about 28,000 Pound Sterling per individual meted out in the form of government checks. There is some wool growing (sheep), but not much. The place is very much like Craggy Rock in the old Father Ted BBC series. So, don't be expecting to see too many trees. There are none.

    But more to the point. Isn't it sad that there are outright purposefully stupid people such as Wlydguzchaz who crawl out from under rocks and think they have anything remotely intelligent to say and then crawl back just as fast when it's pointed out to them they don't know what they are talking about and whine jinoistic posts that have absolutely nothing to offer at all?

    What's that revived Bette Midler song? "Drinking again, thinking of when . . . I last had a complete thought?" I maintain some of these ultra patriotic boyze are just sucking vodka through a straw when they log onto this site.:frown1:
     
    #13 midlifebear, Apr 20, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  14. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,259
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Just like I thought. You and every other left winger can't take 2 minutes to give us what they judge is good about America. Just find what is bad. That way you seem hip to those who think they are too cool to say, "this is one helluve a country."

    "Mericuhns? You hate the people around you, its clear. Can't call them AMERICANS? Thats our name. Sad pathetic little man.
     
  15. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    The British concede? Not unless they have to. 300 miles? How far is Gibraltar from Spain? Or France from England for that matter.

    My take on the Falklands is that there is no clear history of ownership and so I believe it's simply best to do what the people who live there want. I know Brits have a thing for Argentina though I doubt the shepherds and fishing people of the Falklands want to live under Argentine rule. Yes, the Malvinas are close to Argentina, but distance doesn't mean a whole lot when it comes to political geography.

    I'm really sorry. Today is cold and wet and it's really going for my hands. I can't type much. Maybe that's a good thing! :wink:
     
  16. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Jason, my love:

    If I were in England I'd use The Falklands. But I don't live in an English-speaking world. And I'm with you regarding the people who have the ability to suffer the antarctic-like winds and two seasons: cold and colder. Let them do as they wish. The odd thing is that every once in a while you run into someone babbling in perfect Rioplantense and discover they have moved to "the big city" (Buenos Aires) from the Malvinas to attend medical school or make a new life for them self. Every native of the Malvinas is automatically granted Argentine citizenship, if they apply for it.

    But the South Georgian waters of Antarctica are a really big deal these days. It's one of the few places that haven't been fished to an empty water desert. Chile and Argentina are being very protective of it. Even the Japanese are a bit leery of venturing too far south of Punta Arenas because Chilean commercial fishermen are a fierce bunch not opposed to crippling a non-South American fish trawler. They don't care if it's against international law. As for the waters around the Malvinas, they aren't going to be much good for oil exploration any more because of international treaties with other countries, not just Argentina, have forced England's hand that they have no business risking the ecosystem just for X number of barrels of oil. Also, didn't it take something like two weeks for the Royal Navy to float down here for the Falkland/Malvinas hissy fit? Yet another reason not many English fishing concerns are making the trip for a bit of cod and halibut: it's too damn far!

    Sorry your hands are cold. I hope the weather warms up for you.

    Looks like I've really pissed off the pseudo patriots this afternoon. I'm being accused of "hating" the USA, a neo rad (new one for me), anti-America, anti-Caucasian, and a "bitter old gay" the latter in bold red no less! It's too bad we don't know more about these guys wrapping themselves in the flag as if it were there personal property. They often omit any geographic location (which explains a lot of things), often times no age, or what their favorite drag name is. What ARE they hiding from? :smile:
     
    #16 midlifebear, Apr 20, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2009
  17. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Messages:
    10,576
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Warwick, NY, USA
    It wasn't your choice of name I was questioning, but the apparent support for Argentina's claim. Did I read too much into it? I didn't mean it to be provoking either, I'm just genuinely curious as I see it as a very complex issue.

    The Falklands are a strategic asset to the US and the UK and cost relatively little to keep in the fold. It comes down to American security and the UK's policy that the US is the final guarantor of British sovereignty. So long as they have that policy, they will hold on to the Falklands. That was true during the war too. Reagan immediately offered Thatcher military assistance in anyway she needed. She very shrewdly declined and turned herself into a popular wartime leader. We may have been in bed with Argentina, but when the wife called, we came home.

    How do we know who is a pseudo-patriot? I truly believe that people who disagree with you really do believe they're interpretation of the world is correct and therefore what's best for this country. Certainly I like to think I know best too. Who doesn't? Where I find problem with their philosophies, and then only sometimes, is the high ideological bent that clearly colors dispassionate and rational consideration of the facts at hand. Yeah I hear some of the talk radio arguments in their writings. I hear people who are often worried, scared, and feel under siege and talk radio appeals to those people. It gives them a touchstone so they don't feel so powerless in the face of radical change.

    We are, the US and the world, undergoing some radical changes where the old paradigms don't fit. I believe that we're still in the post-war era, transitioning into a global era. I know people have said that for the last 30 years, but I don't think most understood the vast implications. When eras change, so do the powers of the world. That's not to say some formerly glorious countries won't revive and become prosperous or even become more glorious. What it does mean is that the US is facing its first ever decline and that frightens people. We will not be number one any longer, and I wager soon enough we won't be able to project our power as broadly as we can now. Our petrodollar will be dumped, and we'll be searching for a new role in the world, likely not as prosperous nor as economically powerful. The days of dictating will be gone and we need to prepare for that rather than rant over the loss and pat ourselves on the back for not accepting the inevitable.

    The best thing Obama or anyone else can do right now is open lines of communication with whom we would not bargain before. That's not a suggestion that we capitulate, just that we abandon our righteous indignation and proceed to do what's best for the United States as it moves beyond the post-war era.
     
  18. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Jason: To me, a pseudo patriot is someone who feels the need to rub your face into the concept that they are more patriotic than you (you in the general sense, not you, Jason, specifically). I'm sure they are scared. What 30 to 40 year-old US citizen who has been spoon fed the selective history of the last century wouldn't be scared of becoming extinct. And as I mentioned in another post, you've opened a big can of beans by admitting that most US citizens aren't so well educated. It's true, they aren't. And personally, I view it as an intentional dumbing down of the population.

    But I also give a lot of credence to the quote that "Patriotism is the last refuge for scoundrels." Or was it "criminals"? And it's late and I can't remember if it was Samuel Clemens or Dolly Parton who said it. It was somebody.

    I agree with you 100% regarding your observation about the cold fact of the US having to face a completely different role in the new "global" era. The photo of Hugo Chavez and Obama actually shaking hands was center-spread news in ALL of the major South American newspapers, not just in Argentina and Chile. And with the great push for electric automobiles Bolivia pretty much has the world's current battery technology by the testicles, because it has the largest deposits of lithium in the world sitting several feet thick on top of an ancient dried lake bed.

    I'm in awe of Evo Morales and his difficulties as the first Amerindian President in ALL of the Americas and especially because his job will be seen by many as Amerindian revenge. Only 17% of Bolivia's population can be considered "white" and it's that same 17% who have ruled Bolivia since before they lost their access to the Pacific Ocean to Chile. Again, the US public isn't equipped with the knowledge or education to understand that Morales is having to marry his capitalist predecessors into a socialist/capitalist marriage for Bolivia to continue.

    The average person on the street in the USA sees things only in black and white. The "You're with us or you're against us," mentality is still very strong and firmly believed as the only truth in the USA. Only recently I heard, probably for the 1,000th time, an 'Mericuhn tourist say to her husband, "These Argentines need to learn a lot more English if they want to rake in the US tourist dollars." That woman is lucky to still be walking, having said such a stupid ethnocentric thing within my earshot.

    Again, I hope Obama can maintain an open bridge of communication between and among our (as in the USA's) "problem" nations. Like most of the world all of Central and South America has its fingers crossed. Hey, anyone who can mention the Monroe Doctrine in a LPSG post has a lot of street cred in my book. Still, you realize that's a topic that is over the heads of all but two or possibly three of jingoists who post on LPSG and insist upon asking for an order for "Freedom Fries" when they go to McDonalds. (Info from personal PM's I've received.) But what I can't figure out is what keeps feeding this hate machine that polarizes the USA from the rest of the world and keeps our children stupid! Arrggggh! I suppose I shouldn't bother, but when someone makes such an outright asinine claim that the "USA does not support leftist (or conservative right) military regimes." It's galls me a bit too much. So much for dealing with that which cannot be dealt with.

    As for the Malvinas versus Falklands issue: You're not provoking anything with me. Just remember to refer to that collection of cold rocks as the Malvinas when you're among Hispanos and the Falklands when you're among those who only speak English. It's one of the last open sores left in the Spanish-speaking spirit, a wound left open and bleeding by the British in 1982. The last thing the average Argentine wanted was for this country to go to war. It was a last ditch effort, as you probably well know, by the military junta to gain popularity as the economy continued to tank. It did result in one good thing, and that was to leave Argentina's military completely powerless against a previously oppressed populace. Things are still not perfect (nor will they ever be) in this rather amazing country, but they are terribly happy that despite all of the strikes and demonstrations at least they can strike and demonstrate without being killed in the street. Although there was a rubber bullet brigade of police in Mar del Plata last week that broke up an unruly crowd at a rock concert. Still, no one was killed.

    And so it goes I suppose. :redface:
     
    #18 midlifebear, Apr 21, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2009
  19. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    unneeded review of history, given that morality is irrelevant to the conduct of foreign relations

    what matters in the conduct of foreign relations is the extant and future set of competing, and complimentary sets of interests, and power

    can Obama become any more of a clone James Earl Carter?
     
  20. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Oh, pshwah, Nicolas of the sixes. It's late and time for you to be in bed!
     
Draft saved Draft deleted