Obama says its time to say goodbye to Afghanistan......

D_Davy_Downspout

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You've just proven that you don't really read a thing that I say. Your prejudices as to whom I'm supposed to be (since I don't critique Obama as viciously as you do) prevent you from seeing where many of my thoughts truly lie. The sad thing is, I tend to agree with people like you and TomCat84 (who I just recently placed on ignore). However, you assume such a pompous stance of ideological superiority that you view anyone who tries to generate more objective responses as being "soft" or an "apologist". Even if you wind up with ideologies that I side with, your actions and demeanor on this board is no better than the people on the ideological right that you find grievances with. Also, you need to come to grips that nobody has to be as bitter, angry or "disappointed" as you in the current administration and be willing to only talk about the same tired talking points about the wars, Gitmo and a few tax & financial policies in order to have something to say. Ultimately, I don't have to win your approval or your support. But if you want my respect you'll tone your own rhetoric down a bit when addressing me.

I react to what gets posted on this board. I don't post here enough to bother to make serious effort threads, that's for other forums I post on where I don't have to deal with poorly capitalized tea party rantings at least once a thread.

If this board got to the level where we could have real discussions, that's something, but I think that a lot of posters get into partisan mudflinging, where they have to argue against the right-wing idiots to the point of where thy're defending Democrats who are roughly as right-wing on most issues. I think both sides can shit on bad politician without agreeing with each other.

As for taking things personally? Perhaps if people like you didn't try to get personal I wouldn't feel the need to strike right back. We can have discussions without the name calling or the implications of intellectual inferiority, but you can't do that. Beyond this, when everyone is ready to toss around the usual, played to death, politically charged verbiage at one another it's proof that all you want to do is talk shit. But let me clue you in as to why I get offended when people like you and TomCat84 call me an apologist:

I really don't get personal with you. I talk about your posting and politics. You take that personally. I've never based any criticism of you on anything having to do with anything off this board. I didn't know you were black until you pointed it out one time and I had to check your pic.


As I stated in previous threads, I was a kid that lived in the city and was bussed to the suburbs where I was frequently the only black kid in the class among a bunch of caucasians. Every time I went to school I found myself speaking up for my black friends who were not as lucky as I was to receive a better education. Then when I would go home and I would have to speak up for my white friends against everyone at home who thought I was "too good" to hang around my own kind.

"You think you're special because you go to school here?"
"You think you're special because you go to a school over there?"
"You think you're good as us?"
"You think you're better than us?"
"Why can't black people be more like you?"
"Why do you hang out with those white boys all the time?"
... etc, etc, muthaf*ckin' etc. :rolleyes:

Essentially, I was able to figure out the bullshit that existed on both extreme sides and I felt it necessary to tell the uninformed that it wasn't nearly as bad and evil as they envisioned. The same pathetic nonsense happens on LPSG on a political level. You have the hardcore right wingers all thinking I'm a "blind Liberal", meanwhile people like you who claim to be the "real Liberals" think I'm too soft. After a while and after so many years, the game gets tired and I'm simply not putting up with the nonsense anymore. Not from you or anyone else.


I'm not actually a liberal, I'm a socialist. American liberals are essentially conservatives by any rational definition, but that's far too big a discussion for this thread. Racism sucks, and being the only raisin the bunch of grapes sucks. I get that. But that doesn't make a centrist position some kind of moral statement.

This has nothing to do about not having a thick skin, because if I didn't I wouldn't still frequent the Politics section. This is all about standing up for what I believe and for my own individuality, REGARDLESS of whatever anyone else says. If you don't like what I have to say, then you know how to use the ignore button. Otherwise, keep on using ignorant titles like "apologist" and any other bullshit, character degrading term you can invent in your bitter mind to take shots at me and see where that gets you. Now can we talk about Afghanistan or do I need to add you to my growing list?

Sure. Obama has given a timeline to get a portion of troops out. He may or may not stick to that. Even if he does, it's more than likely a budgetary and PR move, since we'll still be there in near the numbers that the USSR was at it's peak of their confllict(we had exceeded what they commited quite a while ago).

There's no reason we couldn't end the war there for all intents and purposes right now. Obama has the power to do that. He doesn't, for a variety of reasons that every president has had for not fucking with the MIC.

If you don't support an immediate end to our wars and not starting new ones, you're an apologist for war and part of the blood of hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and Afghanis is on your hands. No nation has attacked us in years. We start wars, we kill people, we are the bad guy here.
 

B_VinylBoy

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sinwin - You have been personal with me, just like I've been personal with others. I'm not going to diverge into that with any major detail, but all one has to do is look through our post histories and it speaks for itself. Whether it be deliberate or through implication, everyone takes personal shots at one another in the Politics section.

I'm not actually a liberal, I'm a socialist. American liberals are essentially conservatives by any rational definition, but that's far too big a discussion for this thread. Racism sucks, and being the only raisin the bunch of grapes sucks. I get that. But that doesn't make a centrist position some kind of moral statement.

I only brought up this story of my past to illustrate that many times I'm literally shoved "into the middle" not because of my own liking or desires, but due to the polarization that goes on at each end. Let's not get it twisted, I do tend to lean left on a lot of things. But trying to be objective and viewing things from the center becomes the only place where I can gather my thoughts properly and come through with a proper response. I'm not trying to take the moral hugh ground here, but merely exposing some of the methods to my madness.

Sure. Obama has given a timeline to get a portion of troops out. He may or may not stick to that. Even if he does, it's more than likely a budgetary and PR move, since we'll still be there in near the numbers that the USSR was at it's peak of their confllict(we had exceeded what they commited quite a while ago).

Everything politicians do is some form of PR move. They're always in the spotlight and are supposed to represent success, power and morality for many citizens who bestow those responsibilities onto them. Given the volatile nature that is politics, there's always a good chance that a promise will be broken too. So just as you said, it's possible that he may or may not be able to stick to the timeline he declared to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. However, from a campaign perspective he is doing what he said he would. It may not be what we want as an ultimate goal (complete troop withdrawal), but at least the steps are being put in place so that we might come closer to see this through.

There's no reason we couldn't end the war there for all intents and purposes right now. Obama has the power to do that. He doesn't, for a variety of reasons that every president has had for not fucking with the MIC.

That would require Obama to be more of a tyrant and not a President of the people, and given that the goal is to ultimately win re-election I can see why he decides more often to play the center than assume more radically charged stances. Besides, when Obama issued an executive order to close Gitmo it still didn't come to pass. Congress is an absolute mess right now. Nothing is as easy as it seems anymore.

If you don't support an immediate end to our wars and not starting new ones, you're an apologist for war and part of the blood of hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis and Afghanis is on your hands. No nation has attacked us in years. We start wars, we kill people, we are the bad guy here.

This is where we will have to disagree. You're taking a very polarizing stance on the wars and my views are not completely one sided. I also would like to see the quick end to the wars we are currently in, which is why I applaud any effort to withdraw troops even if it's just a small amount of them. I never have or will assume an apologetic stance for any war our country engages in, nor do I look to war as a first choice in any dispute. But even I know that sometimes war is inevitable and I learn to accept it under certain circumstances despite not being a fan of it. Even during 9/11, I was more under the impression that we needed to obtain more ally support and investigate who the culprit was before running into the Middle East with guns blaring. Whether or not our country goes to war has everything to do with Congress, the President and our Military. Citizens like us don't get to vote on these matters and I certainly didn't pick a President based on whether or not he would "kick enemy ass". Therefore I don't buy into this notion that there's blood on my hands. Ultimately, we're both on the same side looking to achieve the same goal here. The only real differences is that you want immediate results and I'm willing to be patient, considering how messed up our government can be sometimes.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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Everything politicians do is some form of PR move. They're always in the spotlight and are supposed to represent success, power and morality for many citizens who bestow those responsibilities onto them. Given the volatile nature that is politics, there's always a good chance that a promise will be broken too. So just as you said, it's possible that he may or may not be able to stick to the timeline he declared to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. However, from a campaign perspective he is doing what he said he would. It may not be what we want as an ultimate goal (complete troop withdrawal), but at least the steps are being put in place so that we might come closer to see this through.

Actually Obama promised to increase involvement in Afghanistan. So he's backtracking there too.

That would require Obama to be more of a tyrant and not a President of the people, and given that the goal is to ultimately win re-election I can see why he decides more often to play the center than assume more radically charged stances. Besides, when Obama issued an executive order to close Gitmo it still didn't come to pass. Congress is an absolute mess right now. Nothing is as easy as it seems anymore.

That's bullshit. This is why I call you an apologist. There's plenty of things that Obama can do without congress, but he chooses not to and then blames congress. One of the things that people knocked Bush for is expansion of executive power, and Obama has done nothing to roll any of that back. Blaming congress is just a narrative that allows him someone to blame his dismal record on.

Case in point, he sure as fuck didn't need congress to go to war in Libya.

This is where we will have to disagree. You're taking a very polarizing stance on the wars and my views are not completely one sided. I also would like to see the quick end to the wars we are currently in, which is why I applaud any effort to withdraw troops even if it's just a small amount of them. I never have or will assume an apologetic stance for any war our country engages in, nor do I look to war as a first choice in any dispute. But even I know that sometimes war is inevitable and I learn to accept it under certain circumstances despite not being a fan of it. Even during 9/11, I was more under the impression that we needed to obtain more ally support and investigate who the culprit was before running into the Middle East with guns blaring. Whether or not our country goes to war has everything to do with Congress, the President and our Military. Citizens like us don't get to vote on these matters and I certainly didn't pick a President based on whether or not he would "kick enemy ass". Therefore I don't buy into this notion that there's blood on my hands. Ultimately, we're both on the same side looking to achieve the same goal here. The only real differences is that you want immediate results and I'm willing to be patient, considering how messed up our government can be sometimes.

The last time we got into a war unasked for was WWII. I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that sometimes war is inevitable. I'm not talking hypothetical, I'm talking Afghanistan, and that war was certainly not inevitable.

People are dying, children are dying, families are dying. We are the reason for this. We are bad guy here.
 

B_VinylBoy

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That's bullshit. This is why I call you an apologist. There's plenty of things that Obama can do without congress, but he chooses not to and then blames congress.

After all of this, you go back to the name calling? Really, dumbass? :rolleyes:
I would address the rest of your simple-minded, blinding ideological bullshit but to be brutally honest I don't give a damn anymore. You're simply too immature to take into consideration just how deep the political game can get. You just mindlessly staple a bunch of ideological beliefs onto your chest, and without thinking (or caring) about any of the various scenarios, circumstances and issues that may emerge to complicate things you act as if a President has absolute power to do exactly as he wishes... or to be more exact, what YOU wish. That's why you took a statement which did nothing but illustrate how it could be that difficult, by pointing out how Obama tried using an executive order to close Gitmo and was still not able to do so, and ignorantly repositioned it as to suggest that I was trying to make an excuse for him. Why don't you shut your hole and try to enlighten yourself about something else besides how the current president let you down for once in your pathetic and pessimistic life? It's not as if Obama is the only president we ever had that issued executive orders that were not followed. Go ahead... Google it sometime.

Seriously, I'm absolutely done with people like you. Next time you even dare to respond to me, try to understand that I view issues from many different angles and respond accordingly. You ignore all the angles except for the one, then try to beat it over the heads of everyone including those who usually agree with you to some degree. Let me know when you know how to think past your pathetic ideologies and maybe then I'll consider talking with you on political matters again. Until then, you've joined the ranks of all the other ideological zombies on this board.

And everyone wants to call me the angry one? Give me a fuckin' break... :rolleyes:
 
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D_Davy_Downspout

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After all of this, you go back to the name calling? Really, dumbass? :rolleyes:

Grow up. This is why I don't start discussions on this board. You can't even talk like an adult without getting petty.

Saying you're an apologist isn't name calling, it's my opinion of what you are. Act you fucking age.

I would address the rest of your simple-minded, blinding ideological bullshit but to be brutally honest I don't give a damn anymore. You're simply too immature to take into consideration just how deep the political game can get. You just mindlessly staple a bunch of ideological beliefs onto your chest, and without thinking (or caring) about any of the various scenarios, circumstances and issues that may emerge to complicate things you act as if a President has absolute power to do exactly as he wishes... or to be more exact, what YOU wish. That's why you took a statement which did nothing but illustrate how it could be that difficult, by pointing out how Obama tried using an executive order to close Gitmo and was still not able to do so, and ignorantly repositioned it as to suggest that I was trying to make an excuse for him. Why don't you shut your hole and try to enlighten yourself about something else besides how the current president let you down for once in your pathetic and pessimistic life? It's not as if Obama is the only president we ever had that issued executive orders that were not followed. Go ahead... Google it sometime.

Ah yes, I'm a simple minded idealogue because I can't see why we absolutely must keep on killing people halfway around the world and be thankful that he's pulling a small amount home maybe pretty please someday.

Seriously, I'm absolutely done with people like you. Next time you even dare to respond to me, try to understand that I view issues from many different angles and respond accordingly. You ignore all the angles except for the one, then try to beat it over the heads of everyone including those who usually agree with you to some degree. Let me know when you know how to think past your pathetic ideologies and maybe then I'll consider talking with you on political matters again. Until then, you've joined the ranks of all the other ideological zombies on this board.

And everyone wants to call me the angry one? Give me a fuckin' break... :rolleyes:

Give me a fucking break. I am fully aware of all the different angles to look at it, but I don't buy the equivocating mushy middle bullshit. It's not a political game, people are dying, and when you try and use sophistry to explain how why killing people is not a simple choice, you enable it.

I'm fully aware of the interests and pressures that keep Obama from ending the war right now. I simply don't excuse him for it.

Your simple shit wouldn't last a day on the political forums I usually post on.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Your simple shit wouldn't last a day on the political forums I usually post on.

And that's supposed to mean something? I don't spend my entire life looking for political forums to vent my frustrations on. If that's what you do, then perhaps you should put down the keyboard and seek therapy instead. You can't even distinguish between someone who is making an objective statement versus someone who is truly "defending the president", so don't flatter yourself. A little boy like you hasn't even walked a mile in your own Reeboks yet (never mind could ever contemplate putting on the Timberlands that I walk around in), so spare me your ignorant taunts about "growing up" and being an "apologist". Your arguments are mundanely repetitive, seeping with unmitigated arrogance but void of any form of real analysis or explanation. Beyond typing a few words that attempt to give the illusion that you understand the situation, through your sheer intellectual laziness you type a couple of dismissive verses while taking unnecessary shots at your opponents and equate your stances as being doctrine when all you've done is regurgitated (for the millionth time) the talking points of other progressives that have been beaten to death on various cable news shows. You really think you bring insight that enriches a discussion when all you do is talk shit. And I also don't give two damns if you consider yourself a "socialist". Your pathetic political label doesn't exonerate you from your actions.

Lastly, stop being so ignorant and crass to use the imagery of dying soldiers as your rhetorical body shield. That's about as dishonest and ignorant as the religious right using the Bible or the Constitution to defend their insanely bigoted ideologies... and just as tired. People who usually have nothing to fuckin' say stoop to such lows. Seriously, how desperate do you need to be to have a point around here?

Are you through, sinwin? As far as I'm concern, our discussion is over.
 
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Rikter8

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Most important point.

Obama won the election because of the corruption of the Republican party.

You can't just drop your shit and walk out.
Many soldiers could die on plots against the exit mission.
The people you are protecting over there are suddenly left to fend for themselves.

It isn't like america where they just get up, go up to their local Wal-mart and get a few packs of 12ga shells to protect their families... These people are defenseless against terrorists, and anyone - anyone who had ties to the american forces would die, or be converted to their regime.

Until you hammer back the extremists, and instill some form of governmental control for the people, your screwed.

Bush ran us into the snake pit. Now like any sane person with all of the cobra's staring at us...we have to tiptoe out.

It's not an all you have to do.
I don't care what political side your on - if you don't realize these facts, then you shouldn't be talking politics.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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And that's supposed to mean something? I don't spend my entire life looking for political forums to vent my frustrations on. If that's what you do, then perhaps you should put down the keyboard and seek therapy instead. You can't even distinguish between someone who is making an objective statement versus someone who is truly "defending the president", so don't flatter yourself. A little boy like you hasn't even walked a mile in your own Reeboks yet (never mind could ever contemplate putting on the Timberlands that I walk around in), so spare me your ignorant taunts about "growing up" and being an "apologist". Your arguments are mundanely repetitive, seeping with unmitigated arrogance but void of any form of real analysis or explanation. Beyond typing a few words that attempt to give the illusion that you understand the situation, through your sheer intellectual laziness you type a couple of dismissive verses while taking unnecessary shots at your opponents and equate your stances as being doctrine when all you've done is regurgitated (for the millionth time) the talking points of other progressives that have been beaten to death on various cable news shows. You really think you bring insight that enriches a discussion when all you do is talk shit. And I also don't give two damns if you consider yourself a "socialist". Your pathetic political label doesn't exonerate you from your actions.

Lastly, stop being so ignorant and crass to use the imagery of dying soldiers as your rhetorical body shield. That's about as dishonest and ignorant as the religious right using the Bible or the Constitution to defend their insanely bigoted ideologies... and just as tired. People who usually have nothing to fuckin' say stoop to such lows. Seriously, how desperate do you need to be to have a point around here?

Are you through, sinwin? As far as I'm concern, our discussion is over.

Lots of words, no content. Try posting on topic.

I like how you only quoted the part of my post that wasn't relevant. It's almost as if you'd rather write walls of text about bullshit that makes it so you don't have to defend your views.
 

hsarge

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If only Obama could marry a modern day Roxanne. That would solve his Afghanistan problem just like it solved Alexander the Great's problem 2300 years ago. Just make the Paschtouns part of the family. Nothing like family in a tribal society.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Lots of words, no content.

Since your response was nothing more than your usual ignorant, broken-record character attacking, I responded accordingly. You get back exactly what you put out from me. You want to talk issues, we can do that. You name call and imply inferiority, I can do that too... and I guarantee you won't like how I do it. After more than a year of us going back and forth on various threads, you'd think you would have figured this out by now?

Try posting on topic.

LOL!!!! So desperate to launch character attacks that you'd risk looking like a hypocrite in the process. Like I told you before, this thread is about AFGHANISTAN. It's not about your grievances with a president who isn't as pushy and demanding as you'd like, how you hate the fact some people will support a man you detest, about Sudan, Congo, Libya, Iraq, how you believe Obama is not "anti-war" or about how you foolishly believe everyone who applauds him has "blood on their hands", nor is it about me and how weak you think my posts are. On top of this, I've made more on topic posts on this thread than you have so follow your own damn advice.

But since I'm already kicking sand in your face, let's expose just how big of a hypocrite you really are. In this, like so many other thread, you tried to derail a thread to focus on the same isolated issues you've been whining about for the last several months. And each time, you conduct yourself in your usual, overly predictable pattern.

1. You seek out a thread about Obama and his actions.
2. You come on and complain about him being a "Conservative", or take shots at anyone trying to frame Obama in a more neutral or objective light
3. You wait for someone to respond, therefore providing a temporary stage for you grandstand about off topic issues using a handful of incidents where you feel he's been just like (or worse than) Bush.

It happened in May 2011, again in March, 2011, and also here in December, 2010. I could go on, but I don't think the additional search criteria is necessary. You do nothing but take the same old, pathetic issue with people like me time and time again. It's old. It's tired. It's played out. It's fuckin' pathetic. And you do this because you lack the courage to start your own threads. You can make up all the excuses you want to state otherwise, but if you were so ideologically and intellectually superior to others around here you'd refrain from talking about what happens on "other boards" and prove it here as well. But after being on this board for seven years (more than double than my time here), where at average you've barely created only one thread a year (seven of nine threads in the Politics section) and none of them having any real longevity beyond one where you also decided to pick a fight with me, it's obvious that you can't. Case closed.

I like how you only quoted the part of my post that wasn't relevant. It's almost as if you'd rather write walls of text about bullshit that makes it so you don't have to defend your views.

The rest of your statement was thoroughly irrelevant. It was deleted to save space and time. Perhaps you type slower than me, so your statements come off as more than irrelevant dribbles than walls of text. Alas, I'm still tickled pink that you're still willing to stoop to elevated levels of hypocrisy to try and lob insults. Now, if you feel the need to have the last word I'll grant you that. Have fun, talk more shit and desperately try to make yourself look better than me for the one millionth time and fail miserably in the process. I will still be here. You will eventually take another voluntary, extended absence and return months down the road when you realize nobody cares what you say around here and the vicious cycle will start all over again. Except this time, your ass will be on ignore.
 
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