Obama Sides With Bush in Spy Case

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_spiker067, Jan 24, 2009.

  1. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Obama Sides With Bush in Spy Case | Threat Level from Wired.com


    The Obama administration fell in line with the Bush administration Thursday when it urged a federal judge to set aside a ruling in a closely watched spy case weighing whether a U.S. president may bypass Congress and establish a program of eavesdropping on Americans without warrants.
    In a filing in San Francisco federal court, President Barack Obama adopted the same position as his predecessor. With just hours left in office, President George W. Bush late Monday asked U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker to stay enforcement of an important Jan. 5 ruling admitting key evidence into the case.
    Thursday's filing by the Obama administration marked the first time it officially lodged a court document in the lawsuit asking the courts to rule on the constitutionality of the Bush administration's warrantless-eavesdropping program. The former president approved the wiretaps in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.
    "The Government's position remains that this case should be stayed," the Obama administration wrote (.pdf) in a filing that for the first time made clear the new president was on board with the Bush administration's reasoning in this case.
    The government wants to appeal Walker's decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, a legal maneuver requiring Judge Walker's approval. A hearing in Walker's courtroom is set for Friday.
    The legal brouhaha concerns Walker's decision to admit as evidence a classified document allegedly showing that two American lawyers for a now-defunct Saudi charity were electronically eavesdropped on without warrants by the Bush administration in 2004.
    The lawyers — Wendell Belew and Asim Ghafoo — sued the Bush administration after the U.S. Treasury Department accidentally released the Top Secret memo to them. At one point, the courts had ordered the document, which has never been made public, returned and removed from the case.
    [​IMG]
    The document's admission to the case is central for the two former lawyers of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation charity to acquire legal standing so they may challenge the constitutionality of the warrantless-eavesdropping program Bush publicly acknowledged in 2005.
    The Friday hearing is needed, because disputes with pretrial decisions generally require the trial judge to permit an appeal.
    The Obama administration is also siding with the former administration in its legal defense of July legislation that immunizes the nation's telecommunications companies from lawsuits accusing them of complicitity in Bush's eavesdropping program, according to testimony last week by incoming Attorney General Eric Holder.
    That immunity legislation, which Obama voted for when he was a U.S. senator from Illinois, was included in a broader spy package that granted the government wide-ranging, warrantless eavesdropping powers on Americans' electronic communications.
    A decision on the constitutionality of the immunity legislation is pending before Judge Walker in a separate case brought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
     
  2. B_bi_in_socal

    B_bi_in_socal New Member

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  3. B_pinoyurge

    B_pinoyurge New Member

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    ahh i don't know what to say
     
  4. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    I'll be bumped for weeks says the thread.
     
  5. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Come on Obama sycophants, compelling explanations would really be appreciated.

    Bump.
     
  6. B_bi_in_socal

    B_bi_in_socal New Member

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    <pin drop>
     
  7. B_FruitFly

    B_FruitFly New Member

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    Shouldn't you be happy? SInce it's Obama it bad, but it was good with bush?
     
  8. HazelGod

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    This is the key issue where I broke with Obama during his candidacy...and nothing has changed.

    In my admittedly limited understanding of the legal vagaries in this specific case, I believe the position of the administration is that the judge's ruling re: admissibility in open court of "accidentally" leaked classified documents should be stayed. Despite the histrionic media coverage (from both sides of the idiot dichotomy), this appears to be a procedural matter rather than any sweeping policy power exercise.

    That said, I disagree with the administration's de facto position that it should be summarily disallowed and the case subsequently dismissed. At the very least, the matter should be reviewed by the FISA court to determine the veracity of the "state secrets" claim.
     
  9. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Here's your problem. And it's a REALLY big one because it shows a severe disconnect of the ability to be an adult.

    You assume that all people who voted for Obama will flip out if he's in support something that may not agree with them. Just like the picking of Rick Warren, this is another example of a move that people have mixed feelings about. You assume that since he's on line with Bush on one item that his entire campaign is a sham. But a rational, thinking adult will understand that a President (or government official) can't do everything to benefit one particular person AND that you can't always have it your way. The latter part of that statement should have been learned back when you were a child.

    It's easy for me to say this because I was originally a Clinton supporter in the primary. And when it came down to the final two on November 4th I chose who I felt was the best for the job. So even though I support Obama, my choice is not blinded nor not informed. And I don't expect anyone to be in 100% support of my needs. That is not only impossible, but infantile. You may want to think about that the next time you expect Obama supporters to take on the Chicken Little routine.
     
  10. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Silly little boy who thinks he can open up a can whup ass. Hahahaha.

    My problem is I was loath to vote for either candidate. I'm a center to center-right kind of person. I've never been directly moved by anything Obama has said, though I have been greatly moved by the reactions of others to Obama's election. Despite that though the messianic tone of Obama supporters is very disconcerting. That is what I find childish . Plus, you picking a fight in three threads now despite your evidently disabled status.

    Hahaha. Midget.
     
  11. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Essentially, I agree with you. But I don't think this is about setting precedent regarding accidentally leaked secrets and the court correcting that error.

    It is specifically about this case that this procedural argument is over. If this stands, accidentally leaked information will never be returned it will be outed in public because there is no other fair legal recourse. This is a short sighted position that will in fact make the U.S. less secure because normally law abiding citizens (i.e. those who would return leaked memos) would find it in their better interest to further leak the information to the broader public.
     
    #11 B_spiker067, Jan 25, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2009
  12. HazelGod

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    That seems to be the position of the Obama administration, which I find difficult to reconcile with his public position of governmental transparency and oversight.

    The question at hand is the Executive's unilateral ability to invoke the "state secrets" privilege. On the one side, I truly believe there are circumstances wherein the public's interest is not served by the open disclosure of all details in the matters at hand. On the other, this power to shroud policies and activities in darkness presents the opportunity for the Executive to abuse its authority and escape accountability for such malfeasance by declaring the matter "classified."

    This appears to have been the modus operandi of the Bush Administration: do whatever they want regardless of legality, and declare it a matter of national security whenever challenged in court.

    As with other powerful privileges of the Executive, I firmly believe the invocation of "state secrets" should be subject to independent review upon challenge. The existing FISA court would seem to be the logical entity to assume that oversight responsibility. Obama generally seems to agree with this position, as evidenced by his executive order that requests for classification of Executive information must pass review of both the Attorney General and the White House Counsel. While a step in the right direction, I still feel this to be inadequate as both those positions are appointed by the Executive.

    I find it difficult to reconcile that apparent desire for transparency with his motion to stay the judge's ruling to review the veracity of the state secrets claim as made by the previous administration.
     
  13. SilverTrain

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    I'm with you on that. I'm waiting for more some further explanation from the Administration.
     
  14. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    I don't have to try, little girl. But please, humor me. :rolleyes:

    In politics, nobody is ever dead center as we will eventually prove as time goes by. But go on.

    What you probably don't know is that Obama wasn't my first choice for President. Clinton was. I did vote for Obama in November 4th because between he and McCain I thought Obama was the better choice. So no, I don't see Obama or any politician as a "messiah". Yet you feel as if every person who supports him thinks of him in that manner. Your first mistake. And a costly one if you continue to make silly assumptions about me.

    I'm not blinded by words... I go by actions. ALL of them. And I weigh them accordingly as to their impact to our nation. Think about that next time when you talk to me, OK?

    Don't worry about me for I can hold my own on MANY threads. Stick around for a while, kiddo... you'll see for yourself. In the meantime, try not to say something stupid.

    And it only took your very next 15 ASCII characters to fail that task. Wow, this is going to be easier than I thought! :rolleyes:
     
  15. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Time will tell. But I come and go and was here a year before you. Hmmm...
     
  16. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    So you got to see an extra year of LSPG dick than I have? That's nice. Not sure what that means in pertains to this discussion, however, I applaud you for your... errrrrr, "achievement"? :rolleyes:
     
  17. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Belated response to previous post:

    Well, if you picked Clinton over Obama so what? I picked Obama months before most and said if the Dems didn't pick him they were racist, before Iowa. Then I found out about his liberation theology roots months before most and felt he wasn't the right first black president. I still lament the dirge of quality in the race and Billary was lowest based on their outright corruption. Saying you were for them in my book is like saying your not politically astute. They are, but you aren't.

    I was recalling your claim about what has been "seen around here" post and realized I didn't recall ever seeing you? Why's that? Didn't stick out in a crowd? :0) I poke. Don't take it seriously.

    But you'll have to take my word that I have been here for scientific and educational purposes. I didn't get gallery priveleges until after I left for some time. So for the most part the dick viewing pleasure has been all yours. My viewing has been about as arousing as a urologist's job. I can get into the women onsite. But, HG has it right when he sigs, "the cake isn't real." I can't cue in on gay culture so that when a man says she's female in her profile and everybody gets it I don't.

    I'm here for what it used to be. JA, Madame Zorra, BigDirge, HG, et al. And unless you can take a beating and keep on ticking I'll probably go again. You ready for yours? We'll see maybe. You might get it more right than wrong and not need any. I simply don't know you.
     
    #17 B_spiker067, Jan 27, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2009
  18. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Well isn't that special...
    Keep in mind, I wasn't one of the ignorant fools who would just blame anyone for being racist if they didn't vote for Obama. I'm black and even I didn't vote for him during the Primary.

    And what flavor of Kool-Aid was that form of rhetoric served up? I can't recall, you'll have to remind me. :rolleyes: :wink:

    But if everyone agrees that all politicians are corrupt in some ways, then why use it as an excuse to not vote for one but ignore it for the other? Makes no sense, really. I originally picked Hillary because I felt she was the best person for the job. Comparing the two candidates, Hillary was more in tune with my political views. Obama was a close second. If anything, I envisioned a Hillary/Obama ticket for the White House. Experience with a fresh set of eyes with new ideas. The fact that Obama is President and Hillary is Secretary of State is a great compromise.

    Ohmigod, the world is coming to an end. I did not meet spiker067's political criteria. Let me go hide my head under my pillow and cry myself to sleep. :rolleyes: :wink:

    Perhaps one could open their eyes once in a while?

    That's a good one. Recording the reactions of people towards big dicks and amateur porn. Didn't know that High School Science Fairs have become this progressive. :rolleyes: :wink:

    I didn't even realize I had gallery privileges until one day I clicked on an image and it wasn't blurred out. Talk about a surprise! But it took me close to a year to get it. And besides, sweetie... I'm gay and I live in New York City. I've definitely done my share of it before I even knew this board existed, so let's not make this too much of an issue.

    Well, I don't say or do these things. And most gay men don't feel the need to pretend to be a girl just to get a man to talk to them. It completely defeats their purpose. I don't need to fake who I am. What you see is what you get, so don't expect me to pretend to be a girl.

    Besides, I'm not on conversion duty. And I look horrible in drag. LONG story. :wink: :biggrin1:

    I'll go get the whips & chains. :rolleyes: :wink:

    I don't know you either... but isn't that the whole idea of a message board? To share opinions, advice and to potentially meet people that may share your same views? I mean, this is nothing more than #IRC with pictures. But now I'm either aging myself or exposing my inner geek, so I'll stop for now.

    Ummmmm... glad to meet you, I think? :confused:
     
  19. D_Cyprius Slapwilly

    D_Cyprius Slapwilly New Member

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    Fixed for me. I'm disappointed, but it was expected.
     
  20. dreamer20

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    The verdict is in re: the wiretapping case concerning the former Bush administration:

    Bush wiretapping program takes hit in Calif ruling | Raw Story

    "U.S. District Court Judge Vaughn Walker said the plaintiffs provided enough evidence to show "they were subjected to warrantless electronic surveillance" by the National Security Agency...

    Al-Haramain lawyer Jon Eisenberg said the ruling had larger implications."By virtue of finding what the Bush administration did to our clients was illegal, he found that the Terrorist Surveillance Program was unlawful," Eisenberg said."
     
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