Obama snubs Gordon Brown...!

mitchymo

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I find it absolutley disgusting that a terrorist who killed over 270 people in the most unimaginble horrific way is let out of prison. He should not have even been let to die in prison at the tax payers expense. Bring back hanging!

Yes, let's take a step backwards. :rolleyes:

If you believe that evil men/women are representatives of the devil then sure, hang them, fight the good fight etc etc, but likelihood is that these men/women are twisted in the head, sick, disturbed, not functioning right, they embdy the most sickening things that humans are capable of but they are hardly likely to be literally evil. As such they are still human beings and showing them contempt til the final hour is just another negative trait which you could expect from such twisted people that commit heinous acts and is far from compassionate as the purpertrators behaviour.

I doubt that the sentiment would be nearly as strong if it was just a dozen people that a terrorist kills than if it were 1000. We wrongly associate the scale of destruction with a level of evil that adjusts to suit ourselves, how many citizens of allied countries after WWIII condemned the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki for example?
 

D_Kissimmee Coldsore

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Uh, no. The whole world (even the UK) has repeatedly voiced their opinion about how the US handles terrorists. We can chime in whenever we want.
But the US there are breaking international and internal laws. The release was done under Scots Law. Whatever the reason was, and it was certainly self-serving, it was legal.
 
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The Megrahi release has demonstrated to everyone in Britain that Scotland has significant powers. While the principle is that the UK is responsible for foreign policy this major foreign policy row has been created in Scotland, and with the UK government saying it is powerless to act.

Nationalism is an important feature in UK politics. The Scottish parliament is run by nationalists (the SNP), while in Wales there is substantial support for the Welsh nationalists. In Northern Ireland all political groups in effect define themselves on their response for or against Irish nationalism. Further afield the Irish parliament is dominated by parties which emerged from their struggle for independence and which are in effect nationalist parties. Even England has a (small) nationalist party.

Nationalist groups run the spectrum from respectable politicians to terrorists. In some areas nationalism is inevitable, but it seems it is never comfortable. In Northern Ireland it has caused a lot of misery; in Wales there have been some serious problems. What seems to me to be beyond defense is the effort to whip up nationalist sentiment where none previously existed. In Cornwall (which is a county of England) there is a pressure group which seeks Cornish independence on the basis of a spurious claim to a unique constitutional status and a reading of the county's ancient and mediaeval history which stresses differences with other counties of England. At the moment they are fringe nut cases, but there is a (small) possibility that they might let the nationalist genie out of the bottle, to the misery of the people of Cornwall. There's also a group calling for the independence of Shetland.

I don't think there is anything comparable in US politics, and my impression is that most Americans haven't got their head around the nationalist dimension in the Megrahi release. My own view is that Brown could and should have done more, but there is a degree of truth in his assertion that it is a Scottish decision not a UK decision.

I thought it demonstrated very clearly that Whitehall could demand what it wanted and make Scotland take the fall for it. "Oh so sorry, nothing I, the Prime Minister, a man with nuclear launch codes, political leader of one of the world's most powerful nations, can possibly do about it." Brown didn't do more because he didn't want to do more. I think the Straw memo spoke volumes about who had who by the furry sporran.

I'm powerfully familiar with the politics of Northern Ireland after having been nearly shot by British troops while visiting Banbridge. That, in turn, makes me very familiar with Blair's policy of devolution and I have a good friend at St. Andrews who keeps me up on the SNP and Scotland (I love the offices in the new parliament. Beautiful building). I can't claim the colloquial familiarity that a reasonably competent British subject can, but I do try very hard to do so hence some of my strong opinions about the current PM and parliament.

I don't have any malice toward any country of the UK or her people. FWIW, my ancestry is deeply English with some smatterings of Welsh and Scots on both sides. And I have the teeth to prove it.:32:
 

Jason

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I'm powerfully familiar with the politics of Northern Ireland after having been nearly shot by British troops while visiting Banbridge.

After decades of troubles the locals have mastered the art of blending in to the extent that they can walk along a road and no-one even sees them. They don't need camoflage suits or invisibility cloaks. But as for Americans - well they act like a target! In small town Banbridge the whole town probably knew you were there and at least half a dozen people probably reported a suspicious stranger to the police.
 
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After decades of troubles the locals have mastered the art of blending in to the extent that they can walk along a road and no-one even sees them. They don't need camoflage suits or invisibility cloaks. But as for Americans - well they act like a target! In small town Banbridge the whole town probably knew you were there and at least half a dozen people probably reported a suspicious stranger to the police.

They reported our car, which was legally parked on a street outside a Chinese restaurant (the one where we ate lunch). My friend was driving his car, which had Cavan plates and that raised all the alarms. We exited the restaurant to find no less than six rifles aimed straight at us though there may have been more. The Garda sent a man around to my friend's home while we were away to ask if their car had been stolen. Most happily my friend's wife was at home and provided the Garda with photos of us both and explained that we went up north to visit for a weekend and that his car had Cavan plates because he used to work in Cavan. Otherwise we would have been arrested and the car taken apart. Instead, we were merely, "detained," while our identities were established. And no, we were not offered tea and crumpets.
 

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They reported our car, which was legally parked on a street outside a Chinese restaurant (the one where we ate lunch). My friend was driving his car, which had Cavan plates and that raised all the alarms. We exited the restaurant to find no less than six rifles aimed straight at us though there may have been more. The Garda sent a man around to my friend's home while we were away to ask if their car had been stolen. Most happily my friend's wife was at home and provided the Garda with photos of us both and explained that we went up north to visit for a weekend and that his car had Cavan plates because he used to work in Cavan. Otherwise we would have been arrested and the car taken apart. Instead, we were merely, "detained," while our identities were established. And no, we were not offered tea and crumpets.

The reality of the Troubles is that it was not enough to be innocent, you also had to seem innocent - it wasn't a normal situation. Co Cavan was the safe haven for many IRA terrorists - it's in the Republic but right up against the border. Sadly financial support for the IRA came in part from some Americans, and there was also a lot of ill-considered American sympathy for the IRA terrorists. For much of the Troubles the town centre of Banbridge was closed to cars at night because of the threat of car bombs. An American in a Co Cavan registered car parked at night in the town centre would have been regarded as a major security risk. Of course the army acted. Bombs and deaths were stopped by their prompt action. You were one of the tens of thousands of people who had an unfortunate experience. But the lesson is don't do what yo and your friends did unless you want the treatment you got.

Northern Ireland is far better now than it was. But it is still pretty dire in parts. There are areas of the Bogside in London/Derry where the police only function with the tacit approval of the terrorists. Even now as an Englishman I would be at risk (from Republican thugs) if I walked through the Bogside and would be very concerned if my car broke down there. There are IRA pubs in Belfast where I would get roughed up if I walked in. Much the same applies to the Falls in Belfast. For that matter no one in their right mind would take a car with southern plates say to the Shankill Road or Sandys Row areas of Belfast.

In an effort to get back to the topic of this thread I happen to think the release of the Lockerbie bomber was wrong. But I also think the nationalist dimension is much bigger than many seem to feel. Scotland does now have real powers, and while Brown could have done more (in my view) the legal position remains that this is a Scottish decision. We've let the nationalist genie out of the bottle, and we're facing problems. I rather think this storm is just the first of many.
 
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This was lunch (daytime) in a perfectly legal parking spot. We made certain of that and the army people never said a word about it being illegal. We read all the signs being very aware of the parking restrictions. This was also during a ceasefire and we had no trouble crossing the border into Northern Ireland. We also had no trouble going about the nationalist or loyalist areas in Belfast, and we had spent some time earlier gong about Banbridge looking for a set of linen sheets for myself with no difficulty. I do admit we made very certain that everyone we encountered knew we were Americans so we sort of went about with diplomatic immunity. I got some great pictures of the murals and various famous spots. We were going to stay at the Europa but given its reputation, I decided we should stay at a Jury's just down the road instead.

All in all it was a good trip but I'm less than thrilled with the reception I got in the north. Aiming guns at people and detaining them for doing nothing illegal is not exactly the way to encourage tourism.

Belfast is a fascinating city and I liked it very much. I found all the people very friendly though I was shocked by the fortresses and black marias all over the city. "Oh that's not a traffic helicopter, it's a gunship."
 

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If you venture into N. Ireland, Vizcaya, Beirut, Diyarbakır, or other places where there is a separatist movement and a heavy security operation to suppress it, the normal rules of living are suspended. Don't attract attention and don't expect any kind of 'immunity' just because you are not from there. You have no rights and there is no such thing as habius corpus. Thinking you are just flitting through and not part of the scene is a sure invitation for somebody to 'take an interest' in you. Do your shopping and tourist activities in the tourist places.
 
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If you venture into N. Ireland, Vizcaya, Beirut, Diyarbakır, or other places where there is a separatist movement and a heavy security operation to suppress it, the normal rules of living are suspended. Don't attract attention and don't expect any kind of 'immunity' just because you are not from there. You have no rights and there is no such thing as habius corpus. Thinking you are just flitting through and not part of the scene is a sure invitation for somebody to 'take an interest' in you. Do your shopping and tourist activities in the tourist places.

Hey, we went over the border, stopped at the first tourist kiosk and loaded-up on all kinds of coupons and maps and stuff. If they didn't want tourists, they shouldn't have welcomed them.

All in all, I had a great time up north except for that little business. Everyone in both camps was very friendly and polite. Never once did I feel threatened or get a sixth sense feeling that I needed to not go or be someplace. What I did get was a very intense sense of the fortress mentality of the British government and it was impossible not to notice the relative standards of living between the loyalist and nationalist neighborhoods. Outside of Belfast, the differences were more difficult to see. I didn't make it to Derry so can't say what that city's like though I'm sorry I missed it.

The army folks were polite if, "direct," and we weren't detained long. Both of us asked why there was such a fuss as we didn't think we had parked illegally but never received an answer. It wasn't until we got back to Co. Westmeath that my friend's wife explained the situation. She was very angry with herself for not thinking to have us take her car, which has Westmeath plates and is much nicer than my friend's car (it was a gift from the mayor of Niigata- long story).

British intelligence has a long memory. Years later a bomb did go off in Banbridge and one of the first houses the Garda stopped at was my friend's. They, in turn, contacted the FBI and made sure I was home too (I was) and that was that.

I don't begrudge the investigation given how alarmed they were by our actions but, on the other hand, if you don't want people parking in the city center then for heaven's sake make it illegal. I felt a bit damned by suspicion and they didn't go over the car very much except for those mirror wands, bomb-sniffing dogs, and checking in the visible areas of the trunk, hood, and passenger compartment. They went through the luggage too. They seemed very satisfied by all that and our stories and when they returned our passports we were informed we were free to leave and never encountered another problem the whole time.
 

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The security presence in NI was very heavy indeed, and the intelligence gathering was extensive. Security and intelligence stopped NI degenerating into civil war. The position now is much, much better, but there's still a way to go, and both security and intelligence are far more high profile than anywhere else in the UK.

Americans travelling with people from the Irish Republic were seen as a particular risk. The bottom line is that most of the money that funded the terrorists of the IRA came from America, and there were cases of American "benefactors" wanting to see the carnage they were funding at close quarters. Banbridge is not a town that attracts many tourists of any nationality. It's also a bit more sensitive than most places, even by NI standards - a mainly protestant town though with a substantial RC minority, and very close to the IRA strongholds within NI in south Down. In effect parking wherever you parked was fine for Co Down number plates, but definitely not for a Co Cavan plate. A West Meath plate would have been as bad or worse - West Meath had (still has?) a ghastly reputation.

We now have an Irish economy that is in dire straights, and an NI economy that isn't a whole lot better. There have been a couple of terrorist bomb plots foiled recently - as well as two terrorist murders earlier this year. The peace process remains fragile - it needs prosperity to work.

Wales did breed its own terrorists, though never as much a threat as those in Ireland. There was a marginal extreme edge to Scottish nationalism. These issues are largely resolved. In the UK we have a political solution of autonomy for Scotland, Wales and NI, but it is not a federal system - there is no English parliament. Rather we have a system where Scotland, Wales and NI have varying degrees of autonomy on home matters, while English matters are decided by MPs from all four countries. It is an uneasy situation which is inherently unfair, but is tolearable because it holds the UK together.

In the affair of the release of the Lockerbie bomber I do think Brown should have over-ruled Scotland - but I also understand why he didn't. There would have been an enormous backlash from Scotland demanding independence. The SNP are already the government in Scotland. An incoming UK Conservative government would see the enormous advantage to the Conservatives of Scottish independence (Scotland returns lots of Labour MPs). We are at a time when an independent Scotland looks a possibility. This would have all sorts of issues and upheavals. If it happens it should be because the people of Scotland really want it, not as a quick political fix.
 
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Westmeath's reputation, at least according to my friend's wife, wasn't as bad as Cavan. She said that many times IRA operatives would cross the border to Cavan to steal cars to use as car bombs. Westmeath does have a reputation for being very pro-nationalist with high number of Sinn Fein members and for having a large number of weapons caches. I couldn't tell you about that last part, but yes the county is highly sympathetic to The Movement compared to most of Ireland which plain doesn't care the further from the border you get. I will say, in defense of my friends in Westmeath, that when PIRA killed a garda in Dublin during a robbery, Co. Westmeath was one of the counties which, "suddenly found," some of the highest numbers of weapons. When I discuss the Troubles with my Irish friends, which I don't much, I always take the role of an interviewer, never shocked, always accepting of whatever answers I get. I'm just an American on holiday interested in the country he's visiting despite the fact my last name is nearly as English as Windsor (and I don't mean Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg-Beck either) with no known Irish ancestors.

In general, I find the Irish far more interested in talking about my government and whomever happens to be running it, than talking about theirs. I reserve my more pointed questions and commentary for people I know very well. Have I run into PIRA members? I believe I have though they'd never tell me and I wouldn't be so stupid as to ask. I find the whole thing a terrific tragedy with no easy answers as I can reasonably see the argument on both sides. The saddest part about the Troubles is that so much of the violence was the result of stupid mistakes, misunderstood motives, and plain tit-for-tat that frequently went awry killing or maiming unintended innocents.
 

Drifterwood

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The Cornovii are originally from Shrophire. Maybe they should move back and reclaim it.

Anyway. There is more IMO to Obama distancing himself from Brown. Our forthcoming election (May 6th) is a choice between the US economic model and that of Europe. Brown represents the European model, whilst Cameron at this point seems to want to keep our toes in the European camp, but his balance with the US. Cameron is a more natural ally of the US and association with Brown will only lead Obama into charges of Euro socialism and being buddies with a failure.