Obama: "The Gays"/Healthcare and Slow, Deliberate, Structural Change

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Jul 6, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Andrew Sullivan posted a column recently about Obama's temperament and style. Although it doesn't touch on gay issues, it's still indicative of Obama's Game Plan:


    "The more you observe, the clearer it is that Obama is working on an eight-year time cycle. He wants deep structural change, not swift superficial grandstanding and conflict. He is taking his time and keeping his cool. The question is whether a volatile electorate in a terrible economic time will be patient enough to wait."


    The consensus (at least among rational commentators) is that Obama is a liberal in policy but a conservative in temperament: cautious, consensus-seeking, empirical.


    Look at Iran.

    Decisions were made after deliberation and study. No big emotional breast-beating on the international stage (as various conservatives here urged him to do). All options were kept open — even as we watched the brutal repression.



    Let's look at the evolving "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.

    Recently Secretary of Defense Robert Gates made statements that suggest a sign of change at the Pentagon.

    From Stars and Stripes:


    Gates said both he and senior military leaders broached the subject with administration officials last week, discussing legal parameters for a repeal and interim steps before Congress passes legislation changing the policy.

    “One of the things we’re looking at: is there flexibility in how we apply this law,” he said. “To give an example … if somebody is outed by a third party, does that force us to take action?

    “I don’t know the answer. But that’s the kind of thing we’re looking at, seeing if there’s a more humane way to apply the law until it gets changed.”


    John McHugh is a republican serving New York as a congressman in the House. On June 2 (last Thursday), President Obama nominated him to the position of the U.S. Secretary of the Army. Gates and McHugh are going to be two of the top civilians working with the military on the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.

    Yesterday, Sunday, McHugh told Roll Call:

    “I have no interest as either a Member of Congress or as secretary of the Army to exclude by some categorization a group of people otherwise qualified to serve,” McHugh told Roll Call.

    He noted that the Armed Services Committee has not considered the policy “in any formal way” since 1993. In the meantime, “certainly, the recruiting-age population’s views have changed on that whole matter,” he said.



    As you can see, Obama is slowly, methodically stacking the deck. And working on changing policy from within.

    --------------------


    Though Sullivan does not bring up gay issues in his column, he does bring up healthcare, which again suggests that Obama is working on an eight-year time cycle:


    "Healthcare reform is an immensely delicate task that may well pass this summer or early autumn. Even if the healthcare plan is insufficient and the climate change bill too anaemic, they will both put down infrastructure that can be built on in the years ahead. That’s better than anyone in a very, very long time."
     
  2. Flashy

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    WT, do your arms ever get tired of shaking your Obama Pom-Poms?

    i guess, since you did not mention it, we can look at a *REAL* look at Obama's policy towards "The Gays"...

    since it is from the New Republic, i assume it comes under what you describe as "rational commentators"


    Make the Ask
     
  3. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    We have, and he still has 3+ years (if not 7+) to get things done. We'll see if in this timeframe he can deal with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and perhaps make moves on same sex marriage. Then, and only then, will I pass judgement.

    Not everyone who voted for him are as impatient as his dissenters. How hard is this for anyone to understand?
     
  4. Flashy

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    indeed VB, but the people who wrote that article were not his "dissenters"...that was a supporter, and the New Republic has been extremely supportive of Obama. Give me a bit of credit, unlike other people of this forum, i do not post articles from Fox News, the Washington Times or National Review.

    his behavior thus far, has shown him to be no different with regards to the rights of the gay community and their concerns.

    i think frankly, when it comes to gay issues, Obama sold the gay community a bill of goods he either has... A- an inability to deliver or, B- No intention of delivering in the first place.

    as i have said in the past, he is not doing anything on gays in the military while american troops are abroad in combat, and that, will be for several years still.

    as for his moves on same sex marriage, he will not be doing much of anything IMO.
     
  5. TheMarchHare

    TheMarchHare New Member

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    Change will take time.. and yes, Obama does have hurtles to jump.. but I believe that change IS coming.. with or without Obama's express assistance in such matters even though he has made multiple proclamations of wanting to change these matters. If you recall, in June, he had a White House press conference declaring June as National LGBT pride month.. and after such he said he wants to change not only "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" but also he wants to instate civil unions federally while providing all the same rights of marriage within said unions, and he wants to also expand the workers/home owners non-discrimination act on a federal level to include sexual orientation in it. Personally, that last thing is my biggest concern.. the others are important too.. but it goes against all our country stands for to allow employers to legally fire someone for their sexual orientation. Keep in mind, that state laws are changing rapidly without the help of Obama. Like I said, either way.. change is coming.. and it's about damn time. Obama is not god-sent by any means.. but he certainly is better than what we've had in a long while.. and I'm happy to say that I support him and his policies to a great extent.

    As far as his healthcare reform goes.. I'm all for it. Socialized healthcare is a great idea... BUT, and this is a big but... if and only if they also do socialized schooling at the college level. If healthcare becomes socialized, doctors will make less money(granted, not much less).. and part of why they make so much at this point in time is because of all the schooling they have to go through, and thus.. all the debts they must pay back that they took out to make it through said schooling. Not to mention, that almost nearly any career with any security/import these days requires at least an associates degree. So, if Obama wants to socialize both, I'm all for it.. if not, then I'm not.. and if he wants to retroactively pay back my schooling fees for the last few years to me. I am in school to become a psychiatrist... which means I need a M.D. and therefore I understand just how very unfair it would be to socialize only healthcare without also socializing schooling. That's my two cents.
     
  6. houtx48

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    Why do you think Barry has to do anything about gay marriage? Get off your dead lazy ass and get to work on it instead of whining, we can do this ourselves. Healthcare started as a perk of a job not something that the employer had to provide, you want to see something happen with healthcare employers should stop providing health insurance to it's employees and the see how fast something would get done in the area.
     
  7. TheMarchHare

    TheMarchHare New Member

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    Well, the whole point of voting to put someone into any form of political office is in hopes that their agenda and policies will effect the change you so desire.
     
  8. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    I know that it's not just his opponents who are voicing their issues with Obama and his approach on gay issues at this point. Many people in the gay community are also becoming vocal about this. During this year's Gay Pride March in New York, there was a group of people who held a banner with Obama's picture on it. One one side it said, "Yes We Can".... but on the other side it said, "No You Can't". Clearly, people want swift actions on the issues that matter to them the most. I also would love to see DADT repealed and the ban of Same Sex Marriage lifted. At the same time, I know there's a good chance that Obama may not be able to address or even go forward with every plan he has regarding Gay Rights. Even Clinton tried to repeal the homosexual ban in the Military and received massive opposition because of it. That's why we have DADT in the first place.

    That's because he feels that there are more important issues to address, such as Health Care. And although it does hurt a little to say this, I do think he's right to some level.

    Perhaps, but I think it's more or less A than B.

    Given the circumstances, as well as the opposition he will face if he pushed forward with these agendas, it would only be fair to be patient. Besides, if we had McCain/Palin in office we wouldn't even be talking about whether or not they would be pushing for Gay Rights or the repeal of DADT because we already know their stance on those issues.
     
    #8 B_VinylBoy, Jul 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  9. Flashy

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  10. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    VinylBoy,

    Thank you for this:

    "During this year's Gay Pride March in New York, there was a group of people who held a banner with Obama's picture on it. One one side it said, "Yes We Can".... but on the other side it said, "No You Can't". Clearly, people want swift actions on the issues that matter to them the most. I also would love to see DADT repealed and the ban of Same Sex Marriage lifted. At the same time, I know there's a good chance that Obama may not be able to address or even go forward with every plan he has regarding Gay Rights."

    and this:

    "Besides, if we had McCain/Palin in office we wouldn't even be talking about whether or not they would be pushing for Gay Rights or the repeal of DADT because we already know their stance on those issues."

    ----------


    I find Obama's natural caution and willingness to set the stage for long-term structural change to be sound. There's no question that McCain/Palin would have continued to throw us under the bus -- especially, with 20/20 foresight, seeing the deep culture ties and prejudices that Sarah Palin shares with the "heartland" religious right, which would surely have influenced a McCain presidency.


    Flashy's main point is the point he always makes, the point I have read at least a dozen times:

    "Obama is still a politician, who says what he needs to say and not necessarily what he believes..."


    I choose to believe that the innate intelligence and goodwill he displayed toward gay people during the campaign phase is the same intelligence and goodwill he maintains today.

    I am not in Washington walking in his shoes. I refuse to play this game of constantly second-guessing and continually doubting his motives regarding the gay community. I trust his judgements. If things are more difficult than he encountered, if prejudices among the older generations run deeper than expected, I trust he is laying the groundwork for change -- he's not given me reason to discredit or second-guess or mistrust his good intentions and the slow actualization of these intentions into eventual policy.
     
    #10 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Jul 6, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2009
  11. D_Bob_Crotchitch

    D_Bob_Crotchitch New Member

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    Considering that the legislation regarding marriage is a power given to the states, it is going to be hard to get a national law regulating it. Also, one of the largest blocks of voters who helped vote Obama in is the block of moderate independents. He has to be very careful about offending them. If he alienates them, he may see a change in Congress and be a one term wonder.
     
  12. Penis Aficionado

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    If the point made in the original post is correct -- that Obama is working on accomplishing change slowly and with consensus, over eight years, I would just point out that he is taking an enormous gamble.

    In recent history, cautious, consensus-building, non-confrontational presidents do not get re-elected (Carter, Bush Sr.), while ones who challenge the status quo (for better or worse) and speak out forcefully for their basic principles with little regard to the consequences of their words (Reagan, Bush Jr.) do get re-elected.

    Right now the Republicans are in disarray because all of their leaders are clinging to the ideology they were raised on (laissez-faire economics), even though most Americans now see it as ridiculous. But if they come up with a candidate who combines economic populism with a willingness to tell it like it is, consequences be damned ... then Obama will look like Jimmy Carter in 1980. He'll be in trouble.
     
  13. houtx48

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    one thing obama is looking is 4 years from now is to get reelected and gay issues don't play that well.
     
  14. Wntabigone

    Wntabigone Member

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    I agree with Willtom. We have gotten so used to slam-dunking changes into law without any thought or process to it. The right wingers rammed things through as far back as Reagan as quickly as possible, so no one had any chance to debate the matter. Bush was unprecedented in his use of Presidential Directives and Executive Orders so he could use an excuse to move forward without bothering with Congress. Ramming things through is the only way the right wing can get their agenda in place, since if there were any reasonable debate and process, people (mainly the middle lass) would see that what the right wingers are pushing isn't in their best interest.

    We need to be patient with the Obama administration. I believe he and his administration is structuring things for longterm change and that takes time, especially when there are so many things to fix because of the messes that the right wingers have made over the last 30 years.
     
  15. B_Jimtfmb

    B_Jimtfmb New Member

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    Cautious? 50% Budget Deficit, borrow 1.2 Trillion to cover your 3.6 Trillion Budget. Push through the global warming hoax/ carbon credit tax scheme, which is nothing more than the largest tax increase ever on the consmuer. Hike cigarettes a buck a pack, send cigar factories out of buisness. Give a billion dollars to ACORN!

    Take over the most successful portion of our economy, health care, the one that cannot be off shored.

    All that in one year and you think our dictator is cautious?
     
  16. Flashy

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  17. D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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    you can't blame these guys they're from California. they don't receive paychecks they get IOU's and they still don't get it. LA is bankrupt but they'll throw out 4 million for a Michael Jackson farewell party. I think that says it all.
     
    #17 D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III, Jul 8, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2009
  18. invisibleman

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    Ooh, somebody is sore because they didn't get a ticket and a gold program. :eek:
     
  19. FuzzyKen

    FuzzyKen New Member

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    We have a President who is probably the second most embattled in United States History. He is a man who may have the opportunity to go down in history as either the most successful or the second worst in history.

    He has been in office seven months of a term that may last either four or eight years.

    Two things changed the world when Franklin Delano Roosevelt faced some similar problems. The first is that FDR did not do as well as Obama. The second is that the United States on an economic basis had crashed to a far greater degree than it has this time, even though there were some similar reasons for this crash. FDR allowed the companies to fold, FDR allowed the crashes that the conservative critics of Mr. Obama want him to allow to happen. If he were to allow these deep crashes he would be then vilified for allowing the crashes. He tries to save the whole thing and is in turn vilified for that. FDR had exactly the same experience. He was very fortunate to have Harry Truman as his Vice President. I do not feel that we are quite as lucky with Joeseph Biden, but, Biden has so far taken a total back seat. His only real purpose so far has been to open his mouth and shove his foot in it. Throughout history this has been a track record of many Vice Presidents. Lyndon Johnson in fact under John F. Kennedy was particularly good at it.

    Joe Biden is in spite of a rather rocky start a brilliant statesman and an even more brilliant negotiator with a great talent for bringing warring factions together. Somehow based on the condition of this planet at this moment I hope that he is up for the challenge he faces.

    As a gay man I feel D.A.D.T. to be bigoted, stupid and idiotic. I also however feel that if I were to pick issues of importance to me, I would rather see him focus his efforts on the economy and on health care. What I have heard so far is anything but impressive. What we have to take into consideration however is that one Clinton tried but was stonewalled and two Bushes did not even admit that we had a problem. Energy issues are with little doubt the third most important issue to me. I do not have the answer, but, what I do know is that trusting the oil compaies and people deriving profit from energy production and management has not proven to be a smart thing to do. We can either be taxed to death by "Obanomics" (according to conservatives) or watch an immoral corporate America bleed us dry while making record profits without any corporate responsibility or moral responsibility for their actions. Those taking conservative viewpoints seem to stand on a "tax and spend" platform a great deal. The State of California is living proof of what happens when things are not dealt with. In California the State elected numerous Republicans preaching conservative financial views. In fact, California voters recalled a Democratic Governor on a political whim filing recall papers only a few days after he took office. The State of California followed the rule. No new spending, cut taxes, cut services. Those profiting the most were of course the wealthiest of Californians. In time this continued thinking resulted in the abolition of numerous jobs. When I left that area, the Palm Springs Department of Motor Vehicls had less than 20 people as the entire staff of a facility designed to operate with between 60-70 people. The wait to do even a simple transaction with an appointment could be as high as (5) hours because of understaffing. In the end an embattled California Governor has had to bite the bullet and as usual has raised the taxes, but has as always balanced the budget on the back of the working man, not on the back of those more capable of coughing up a little more for a bail out.

    As we sit and listen to rhetoric of both political parties the average working man is losing everything including the roof over his head. Health care insurance providers claim finacial trauma based on cost, but on paper it appears that these same companies are making record profits. This is done by denial of care and we all know that.

    Costs to both employees and employers for health care benefits are being escalated at a record level. We have domestic partnership under the employment of my life-partner. We were forced to drop our health care coverage in August of 2008 when the new cost of the premiums for a very mediocre plan under an even more mediocre provider escalated to nearly 1/3 of our income.

    At the same time over the past few years our energy costs have nearly tripled. When I left California fuel to get to and from work escalated from $2.12 per gallon to just under $5.00.
    The next rule is that big oil has just laughed hysterically at all of us as they strangle the ability of Americans to make meaningful change with powerful lobbiests.

    On news reports I am hearing here in the Southwest, Oil and fuel prices are again rising and the reasons given are that we as Americans are no longer buying enough. Buy too much, we get shortage the answer is raise the prices, buy too little the answer is don't bother our profits and the soulution is again to raise the prices.

    Major oil companies talk about alternative energy while at the same time they have lobbiests doing everything to block alternative motor fuels. In California where everything that is common sense is illegal, legislation was enacted preventing the manufacture of biodiesel by private individuals by declaring old fry oil to be a hazardous material. Say one thing to your face and do something else behind your back. This is the track record of big oil for decades and we as Americans sit and whimper like a bunch of cowed dogs refusing to demand controls to even stop abuses.

    John F. Kennedy once made the statement: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

    When we criticize our leaders we need not look at the faces of these leaders on the evening news, we need to look a great deal harder at the mirrors in the morning and ask ourselves this question. "What can I do as an individual to make a difference?" "What can I do to bring the dishonest to justice, the greedy and opportunistic under control, and leave this place a better one than I found it."

    Those working for their own personal gains depend on us to do exactly what we are doing. They want controversy, they want uncertainty, they want politicians to be afraid to make a decision for fear of lobbiests making offers to opponents. The opponents then face the same fate.

    If we as the voters start to place controls on those with personal gains in mind, then we are going a great deal of the way towards making this country work for everyone and I mean Democrats and Republicans alike.

    Food for Thought. . .



     
  20. invisibleman

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    Amen to that.
     
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