Obama Took Himself off Michigan's Ballot

[HazelGod]

I am not sure if there was any malicious intent on the part of the legislature's republican majority when they decided to move up the date of the primary

That's arguable, but largely immaterial.

The fact of the matter is that due diligence around the decision to move the primary election was either neglected or ignored. Whether through malice or incompetence, either is unacceptable in a professional setting, especially one in public service where the decisions govern the lives of the general citizenry.

 

[SteveHd]

Then they should issue a very public apology to the people of their state for being such unconscionably partisan douchebags instead of the professional civil servants they were elected to be, along with a promise that it will never happen again.

That's unfair to the Legislators. They didn't know how close the race would be. They didn't know for certain what the penalty would be.

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Trinity, to clarify: I would like to see the delegates seated but I wouldn't be outraged if they weren't.

 

[HazelGod]

That's unfair to the Legislators. They didn't know how close the race would be. They didn't know for certain what the penalty would be.

Nonsense. See my previous with regard to due diligence.

 

[SteveHd]

HG, I agree with your point about "due diligence" but not calling them "unconscionably partisan douchebags". Simply unfair.

 

[swordfishME]

That's arguable, but largely immaterial.

The fact of the matter is that due diligence around the decision to move the primary election was either neglected or ignored. Whether through malice or incompetence, either is unacceptable in a professional setting, especially one in public service where the decisions govern the lives of the general citizenry.

They were not worried about due diligence. The stated reason for doing this was to give Florida a voice in selecting a nominee (they were afraid the nominee would be selected before Florida had a chance to vote) and thus by that count they did what was best for Floridians.

The Florida legislature could give a rat's ass whether the delegates were seated or not if it was not for the face that seating the delegates would potentially change who the democratic nominee would be.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Only across the face, with the ammo nature gave me. And I'd be sure to call her Monica afterward.

As a Canadian, I can't understand the depth of passion Americans feel about politics ... I mean, we're less likely to kill someone we disagree with.

But you're just doing performance art.

Go forth, young man, with my blessing and my Bolex.

 

[SteveHd]

... (they were afraid the nominee would be selected before Florida had a chance to vote) ....

That's valid.

History note: In 2004, when the Florida primary was held, both Kerry and Bush had already "won". People of either party didn't need to bother voting; it had already been decided.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

As a Canadian, I can't understand the depth of passion Americans feel about politics ... I mean, we're less likely to kill someone we disagree with.

I've known some Canadians who were quite passionate about politics. and American politics no less, not even their own. They weren't too polite about points of disagreement, either.

 

[HazelGod]

They were not worried about due diligence. The stated reason for doing this was to give Florida a voice in selecting a nominee (they were afraid the nominee would be selected before Florida had a chance to vote) and thus by that count they did what was best for Floridians.

The Florida legislature could give a rat's ass whether the delegates were seated or not if it was not for the face that seating the delegates would potentially change who the democratic nominee would be.

A huge aspect of due diligence involves examining the possible repercussions of a proposed course of action, and assessing the risk involved. It was made clear by the DNC that if they moved their primary election into January, they would lose their delegation to the nominating convention. They believed this would be of little consequence for them, perhaps thinking Clinton was a given. They were wrong.

The risks and consequences were well known, and they voted to go ahead anyhow, including the governor signing off on it.

Quite simply put, they failed the people of Florida whose voices and interests it's their job to represent.

 

[Trinity]

A huge aspect of due diligence involves examining the possible repercussions of a proposed course of action, and assessing the risk involved.

Completely agree with that statement. Obama took a course of action when he filed paperwork to remove his name from Michigan's ballot. At the very least, his lack of due diligence should be questioned. Making sure voters are not disenfranchised in this complicated Primary should have little to do with fairness to Obama when all has been fair to him and everything to do with making sure every vote counts.

 

[Industrialsize]

Steve,

I respect that. I respectfully disagree and feel that the delegates should be seated. As we delve deeper on Fox News the FL Democratic Legislators are discussing this:

Florida has a Republican controlled legislature and the Republicans out voted the Dems to move up the primary.

I believe there was no public outcry regarding seating the delegates until now because many felt like you Steve even though it was not in voters hands.

With the closeness of the race voters should have all the information to fully understand the issue.

It's funny, Senator Clinton was perfectly content with and NEVER brought up the Florida and Michigan delegates until after her DRUBBING in South Carolina. It seems her CARE for the disenfranchisement of the Michigan and Florida delegates began ONLY when she realize she needed them to win. That's a compassionate candidate.

 

[gjorg]

I've known some Canadians who were quite passionate about politics. and American politics no less, not even their own. They weren't too polite about points of disagreement, either.

Thats funny! Good one
Everybody(almost) seems to be making good points today!

 

[Skull Mason]

Is there a good reason why obama took his name off the ballot?

It just seems to me slightly stupid to go out of your way to take your name off any ballot.

 

[Industrialsize]

Is there a good reason why obama took his name off the ballot?

It just seems to me slightly stupid to go out of your way to take your name off any ballot.

All of the candidates except Clinton and Kucinich took their names off of the ballot to show their solidarity with and that they understood the rules the DNC laid out regarding the fact that the Michigan Delegation would not be seated at the convention. The candidates would have done the same in Florida except an arcane rule stated that to get their names off the ballots in Florida would have basically required them to drop out of the entire primary. Not stupid at all. If you're saying Obama was stupid, so were gravel, dodd, biden, richardson,and edwards leaving only Clinton and Kucinich as the smart ones.

 

[swordfishME]

All of the candidates except Clinton and Kucinich took their names off of the ballot to show their solidarity with and that they understood the rules the DNC laid out regarding the fact that the Michigan Delegation would not be seated at the convention. The candidates would have done the same in Florida except an arcane rule stated that to get their names off the ballots in Florida would have basically required them to drop out of the entire primary. Not stupid at all. If you're saying Obama was stupid, so were gravel, dodd, biden, richardson,and edwards leaving only Clinton and Kucinich as the smart ones.

Stupid may be too harsh a word but it was not the most politically astute move either.

 

[Industrialsize]

Stupid may be too harsh a word but it was not the most politically astute move either.

How so......all the candidates were under the understanding that these 2 races would not count per the DNC's rules?

 

[swordfishME]

How so......all the candidates were under the understanding that these 2 races would not count per the DNC's rules?

It was not all the unimaginable that the states could fight to have their delegates seated. Granted that they thought Clinton would have won this and FL and MI would not count but there was always the chance that the states would appeal to the DNC and fight to get their delegates seated.

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

Uhm, John Edwards took his name off as well. If they could not campaign in those states, it's not a fair election, period.

I was going to post this on a new thread by this site has the best up to date analysis. This guy is in Amsterdam, but his analysis is pretty sound.

THE RULES ARE VERY CLEAR W/ REGARD TO THOSE VOTES NOT COUNTING.

The DNC gave ADVANCED warning to the legislature that decided to give the bird and move it up before February 5, 2008. The were warned that they would be penalized.

The rules are that candidates cannot campaign. If he was not allowed to campaign then it's not a fair election.

There's a whole side-show drama about this and to drag the fight out w/ Hillary and Obama - to keep the democrats fighting longer amongst themselves...

so the governor of florida isn't against another election - but he wants the Democractic chair to pay for it.

25 million. - yep bleed the DNC campaign funds to put on an election - and put them behind for the general election :tool: He's also getting really chummy w/ McCain lately - a VP hopeful perhaps.

You have to question the Florida Republican governor's motive. Does he think it's because Hillary would win and she's a weaker candidate against McCain (f*** Hillary saying she would beat McCain, there isn't a poll to support that data). I think it's the bs idea that the DNC should pay for it.

Though Howard Dean, the DNC chair this time out, is very clear, those states in Michigan and Florida would be penalized and wouldn't be seated...they were warned LONG in advanced before they moved their elections before February 5, 2008.

So if voters feel disenfranchised, you need to take it up with your crooked legislators. Though the ongoing disenfranchisement of Florida voters by their leaders and electoral committee overseeing elections is enough to warrant an investigation, IMO.
He has the same conclusion a lot of us have come to. Hillary staying in the race and forcing this to July does more harm for the democratic party then it doe any good. She pretty much has to win by at least 20 points in every election - to claim that the nomination is hers without any contest (not needing to fight for Michigan and Florida delegates).

Some things he came up with - Obama was actually awarded a larger number of delegates in Texas, due to the way they split Caucus votes.. Hillary won an overall primary majority, but he got more bang for the buck of the share of delegate votes for the numbers that showed up to caucus for him.

Something else... Texas was an open primary. Republicans were casting democratic votes for Hillary to drag this out and it was being hailed all over conservative pundits and radio. Even the news reported there were larger requests for democratic ballots in some areas in Ohio, that they held it open longer to get more ballots...

 

[D_Kaye Throttlebottom]

It was not all the unimaginable that the states could fight to have their delegates seated. Granted that they thought Clinton would have won this and FL and MI would not count but there was always the chance that the states would appeal to the DNC and fight to get their delegates seated.

The problem is that it's not JUST the DNC that insisted sanctioning FLA and MI this.. it's a bid and a promise from the DNC and the candidates made to the first four states that had dibs on the earliest primary races. Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and S. Carolina. They agreed they would only campaign and do elections in those states. It's not just the DNC that was vested, it's those jurisdictions that were insisting that the DNC abide by the penalties.

You know republicans are just loving this whole thing up - cause they know that Hillary will dig in her heels and sling mud at another democrat and piss off the other side of the democrats if they feel they were robbed of their nominee by having to rely on superdelegates or letting a local legislature trump the DNC rules and let them have a seat. Which is why you don't sling mud at the other democrat, you save it for the republican general race.

She doesn't see it that way.

F*** I cannot vote for her... and what I've learned about McCain and now his being chummy with another Florida legislative that is having more effect on an election again, it makes my stomach turn. The guy is corrupt as all get out as all the research out there says he is. And yet the Republican party has put it aside and gotten behind their candidate.

Hillary isn't doing what's best for the party, she believes it's hers.

 

[HazelGod]

Careful how you wave those facts and logic around, Zoe...I'm starting to develop a bit of a crush on you.