Obamacare to the Rescue

houtx48

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You didn't answer the question. So what is your solution for people who are deemed uninsurable by the marketplace? What are they do to?
Yes answer that friggin question for those of us that can not buy health insurance because of existing conditions, in my case CHF. It's one of those, you have yours for the time being so fuck everybody else?
 

B_Jingoist

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Yes answer that friggin question for those of us that can not buy health insurance because of existing conditions, in my case CHF. It's one of those, you have yours for the time being so fuck everybody else?

There is no one answer. You want something you can't have or can't get.

It isn't my job to provide you with health insurance.
 
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deleted15807

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There is no one answer. You want something you can't have or can't get.

It isn't my job to provide you with health insurance.

Finally we get the answer we knew was always there... F* YOU.
 

1kmb1

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Well, if it completely destroys the budget and medical industry it is a bad idea. And there are much better and cheaper ways to keep people alive.

destroys the budget? total cost is less than 2 years of our military cost, so which one is destroying the budget? and how does people getting treated destroy the medical industry?

Yes answer that friggin question for those of us that can not buy health insurance because of existing conditions, in my case CHF. It's one of those, you have yours for the time being so fuck everybody else?

and people that paid into an insurance plan their entire life only to get sick and be dropped?

There is no one answer. You want something you can't have or can't get.

It isn't my job to provide you with health insurance.

which is exactly why the health care reform bill makes people buy their own.
 

gymfresh

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Fuck me? Why because I'd rather provide for my family first than provide for someone I don't even know or care about?

It's this mentality that will destroy a country faster than anything else.

The very definition of "society" is mutual welfare, starting with physical well-being. That means safety from harm (police and fire protection) and collective freedom from neglect or financial ruin for health reasons (universal medical coverage). None of the above services work equitably or humanely in a purely free market system. They must either be provided by the public sector (as in the UK) or meticulously regulated by the public sector (as in Switzerland or Germany). The next vital leg is access to public education. Without police, fire, health and education, the very foundation of civilized society is lacking.

The US isn't quite there yet; we haven't even done a thorough civics job of instilling in our population what it means to live in a modern, just society. No individual or family should ever face bankruptcy or even financial hardship over essential healthcare bills. That one simple concept must be non-negotiable. Want more responsive or extensive coverage than the nationally-established baseline? Buy a private policy. But what you get for your taxes should be comprehensive basic coverage.

I've said it over and over again: this country has only just brushed the edge of what it means to be a society. It's tilting more toward 312 million people who occupy the same geography and don't care for each other very much. It's disgraceful.
 
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deleted15807

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Fuck me? Why because I'd rather provide for my family first than provide for someone I don't even know or care about?

Yes the Ayn Rand school of me me me. No nation no community no land was ever built on the idea of me first and screw everyone else. Selfishness is now a virtue eh? The fact is the quality of our lives is inextricably tied to the quality of life of those around us.
 

ColonialBoy

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Fuck me? Why because I'd rather provide for my family first than provide for someone I don't even know or care about?

The best way to provide for your family is to have a large insurance pool that covers everyone. The US spends around 17% on health care, the highest in the western world; places like the UK and Australia spend around 12% with but have universal health care.

This is the thing I find totally bizarre: you spend so much & get so little. When I read about US health care the payment structure seems like something out of the 1960s.

They must either be provided by the public sector (as in the UK) or meticulously regulated by the public sector (as in Switzerland or Germany).

In Australia universal health care legislation has been honed for 40 years.
You decide the insurer, not the employer. If you change employers it doesnt matter, the insurer follows you. Families get charged exactly twice the single rate, no matter how many children. If you opt out & rejoin later, you pay extra into the pool based on a formula. Preexisting conditions are exempt for max 12 months. You can choose public or private hospitals. Doctors decide the treatment, not the insurer. All this is legislated so the rules are consistent across all health insurers.
If insurance companies could compete nationwide instead within a state premiums would fall due to competition.
All health insurance in Australia is nationwide.
If you DONT insure, you pay an extra 1% tax.
http://www.privatehealth.gov.au/healthinsurance/incentivessurcharges/mls.htm

Nobody want to pay this tax so virtually ALL the working population is insured, and in national insurance pools - thats how you keep costs under control.

If nationalised healthcare is so great, why are the countries that have it scaling back & saying it can't be supported? Enough parasites on a host kills the host & the parasite.
News to me.
 
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dandelion

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There is a reason it is called insurance, it is safety net for when or if something happens.

It isn't a payment plan, it isn't a way to pay bills. It is something you pay into and when bad stuff does happen the money you pay into it comes back out to pay for the bills. Getting it mid problem offers nothing to the company that runs it. They are a business. They employ people. They can't just go around paying for peoples medical bills without getting some kind of payment in return.
Insurance companies are businesses whose sole task is to make money (like all other private inductries). It is self evident that in their own interest they want healthy people as customers and not sick ones. As a society, however, we want treatment for sick people, not healthy ones. Doesnt this suggest that a private insurance company is a totally bad way to provide health care?

Insurance is for things which are rare. It is rare for a house to burn down, so a company charges me a small amount against the unlikely event it will happen to me. But one thing for certain is that I will die, and a statistical certainty I will get expensively sick during my lifetime. The more we achieve our goal of better living standards, the longer we live and the more ill health we have to manage before we do die. This is not a situation where insurance makes sense, you cannot take out insurance against a certainty. There has to be a central fund spreading the costs across a lifetime.

Money always lets you get what you want. The question society has to decide is whether we regard health care as a human right which should be available to all, or whether it is right to let the poor curl up and die.
 

ialooking

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Please explain why the white house has given out a high number of exemtions to this great plan? Also while you're at it, after a new president is elected, where will all those people go for insurance? Will they too be forced into the plan? Exemptions after this president will need to be signed off by the newly elected president or pass the majority in congress.
 

houtx48

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I don't know why they call it insurance everybody in the country uses the healthcare system. If you look at what we have right now we already have government health care in place, medicare, medicad and what needs to be done is to streamline it and make it more cost effective.
 
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deleted15807

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Please explain why the white house has given out a high number of exemtions to this great plan? Also while you're at it, after a new president is elected, where will all those people go for insurance? Will they too be forced into the plan? Exemptions after this president will need to be signed off by the newly elected president or pass the majority in congress.

You seem to already have the answer. Why don't you share it?
 

B_Jingoist

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destroys the budget? total cost is less than 2 years of our military cost, so which one is destroying the budget? and how does people getting treated destroy the medical industry?



and people that paid into an insurance plan their entire life only to get sick and be dropped?



which is exactly why the health care reform bill makes people buy their own.


What do you mean by, total cost? It is a trillion over 10 years. And then even more the next 10. And that is a estimate. Real costs are always much greater.

Our military budget encompasses ALOT of things.

One of the biggest things is that there are 1.4 million active duty service members. Their salaries are there. That is 1.4 million employed people. That doesn't count civilians who work for the military, that would add a few more million. Companies that build weapons, make clothes, food, and all the logistics for ALL of that to work. It isn't just making bombs and guns. And it is also healthcare for all of those people as well.


Many doctors and hospitals don't take medicare of medicaid right now because there is a good chance they won't get paid and the hassle they have to go through to work with it ends up being a huge hassle. It is bloated government bureaucracy. Not to mention how much IT WILL be abused. Do you know an EMTs? Ask them about their typical call. Yes, people call an ambulance because they stubbed their toe or their tooth hurts. They go into the emergency room for the same reasons.

If someone has paid into an insurance plan they don't get dropped when they become sick. That is illegal. People get dropped from health insurance if they lied about conditions during the application process.

And yes it MAKES them buy their own. I don't want the government to FORCE me to buy healthcare or pay into any system.
 

B_Jingoist

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It's this mentality that will destroy a country faster than anything else.

The very definition of "society" is mutual welfare, starting with physical well-being. That means safety from harm (police and fire protection) and collective freedom from neglect or financial ruin for health reasons (universal medical coverage). None of the above services work equitably or humanely in a purely free market system. They must either be provided by the public sector (as in the UK) or meticulously regulated by the public sector (as in Switzerland or Germany). The next vital leg is access to public education. Without police, fire, health and education, the very foundation of civilized society is lacking.

The US isn't quite there yet; we haven't even done a thorough civics job of instilling in our population what it means to live in a modern, just society. No individual or family should ever face bankruptcy or even financial hardship over essential healthcare bills. That one simple concept must be non-negotiable. Want more responsive or extensive coverage than the nationally-established baseline? Buy a private policy. But what you get for your taxes should be comprehensive basic coverage.

I've said it over and over again: this country has only just brushed the edge of what it means to be a society. It's tilting more toward 312 million people who occupy the same geography and don't care for each other very much. It's disgraceful.

What are you smoking?

This country was founded on choice. A place where people can live their lives as they see fit, as long as they don't interfere with others lives. Anything that intrudes on that too much is wrong for this country.
 

B_Jingoist

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Yes the Ayn Rand school of me me me. No nation no community no land was ever built on the idea of me first and screw everyone else. Selfishness is now a virtue eh? The fact is the quality of our lives is inextricably tied to the quality of life of those around us.

It isn't selfishness. It is choice. If I don't want to, I shouldn't be forced to.
 

B_Jingoist

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The best way to provide for your family is to have a large insurance pool that covers everyone. The US spends around 17% on health care, the highest in the western world; places like the UK and Australia spend around 12% with but have universal health care.

This is the thing I find totally bizarre: you spend so much & get so little. When I read about US health care the payment structure seems like something out of the 1960s.

Research and Development. Americans spend the money developing drugs, techniques, procedures and new machines. It happens here because it is profitable. It isn't profitable anywhere else. You socialize our medical system and new medical advances will slow or disappear.



In Australia universal health care legislation has been honed for 40 years.
You decide the insurer, not the employer. If you change employers it doesnt matter, the insurer follows you. Families get charged exactly twice the single rate, no matter how many children. If you opt out & rejoin later, you pay extra into the pool based on a formula. Preexisting conditions are exempt for max 12 months. You can choose public or private hospitals. Doctors decide the treatment, not the insurer. All this is legislated so the rules are consistent across all health insurers.

All health insurance in Australia is nationwide.
If you DONT insure, you pay an extra 1% tax.
Medicare Levy Surcharge

Nobody want to pay this tax so virtually ALL the working population is insured, and in national insurance pools - thats how you keep costs under control.


News to me.

And in Australia people makes $20 in a minimum wage job and it costs them $40 for a case of Coke. And no other western nation has a standard of living as high as that of the US. Spending $40k on a car here is normal. In England anything over $25k is expensive.
 

B_Jingoist

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Insurance companies are businesses whose sole task is to make money (like all other private inductries). It is self evident that in their own interest they want healthy people as customers and not sick ones. As a society, however, we want treatment for sick people, not healthy ones. Doesnt this suggest that a private insurance company is a totally bad way to provide health care?

Insurance is for things which are rare. It is rare for a house to burn down, so a company charges me a small amount against the unlikely event it will happen to me. But one thing for certain is that I will die, and a statistical certainty I will get expensively sick during my lifetime. The more we achieve our goal of better living standards, the longer we live and the more ill health we have to manage before we do die. This is not a situation where insurance makes sense, you cannot take out insurance against a certainty. There has to be a central fund spreading the costs across a lifetime.

Money always lets you get what you want. The question society has to decide is whether we regard health care as a human right which should be available to all, or whether it is right to let the poor curl up and die.

Than how do you explain life insurance? Insurance is there for the big stuff. In countries with some kind of national or regulated healthcare people go for regular doctor visits and checkups and monitor their health. And for small things they often times pay out of pockets. They take preventative measures. I go to the dentists twice a year and I get a physical at least once a year.


In the US people don't do that. They don't go until something certainly is wrong and they get into large expensive procedures. Not to mention the abuse of elective surgeries as well as over medication.
 

TurkeyWithaSunburn

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One of the biggest things is that there are 1.4 million active duty service members. Their salaries are there. That is 1.4 million employed people.
That's 1.4million GOVERNMENT WORKERS! And aren't all government workers lazy overpaid bureaucrats that can't make it in the non governmental sector of the economy? <Yes that is a bombastic snarky comment.>

If someone has paid into an insurance plan they don't get dropped when they become sick. That is illegal. People get dropped from health insurance if they lied about conditions during the application process.
They won't get dropped NOW, thanks to the healthcare law. Previously nearly every company had a lifetime maximum benefit, I think usually it was $1M per policy-which would include a whole family. If you unfortunately reached that limit then you were dropped because you maxed out benefits.

I don't want the government to FORCE me to buy healthcare or pay into any system.
That was a Republican idea that first came about in the early/mid 90's. Either buy health insurance or pay a tax if you didn't.
 

ialooking

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A. No one has yet answered my question in regards to the exemptions. If its the end all of healthcare coverage why have so many been exempted?
B. Isn't the current administration the one who has expanded government employees on the fast track? Also I hope the implication of our 1.4 million enlisted people being lazy government employees is not how you meant it.
 
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deleted15807

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A. No one has yet answered my question in regards to the exemptions. If .......:sleeping::sleeping::sleeping:

Are you incapable of doing your own research? :eek:

It isn't selfishness. It is choice. If I don't want to, I shouldn't be forced to.

I don't want to pay for the largest military on the planet and indeed the largest the world has ever known but what choice do I have? I don't have kids but I have to pay for schools. What choice do I have? I never call the police but I have to pay for them. What choice do I have? I never call the fire department but I have to pay for them. What choice do I have? I never use 97% of the roads in my county but I have to pay for them. What choice do I have?
 
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