ObamaCare

h0neymustard

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vince

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It's an outrage.

My appendix was huge and had to be removed via abdominal surgery. The scar is 6" long. Was in hospital for a week and had a nurse visit for another week at home. I was off work for six weeks. I never saw a bill, due to the fact that Canadian health insurance covered everything. I got 80% of my salary from the unemployment system as well.

At the time, our family of four paid $98.00 per month for insurance. Think it is $152.00 now.

I cannot believe the sky-high rate Americans pay for insurance which includes these deductibles and co-payments. In the past year, our family has paid over $160,000 to cover the treatment and rehab for my sister's minor heart attack.

It's outrageous and has to be the stupidest system imaginable. I mean, if you wanted to design the most inefficient health insurance system you possibly could, you'd do what they did in the USA. I think Obamacare is just going to spread the pain around to a larger group.

When I looked up the rates we would pay for a mid-level "Silver" plan, I just about fell over. Plus the deductibles are crazy. It was $685 per month and would only cover 70% of annual health care costs! yikes.

Even the best gold plans are shit compared to what everyone can have in BC, Canada. The only group getting any "silver or gold" are the insurance companies. The consumer gets the shaft.

Ya'll are getting screwed and the sad/funny part of it is that a huge part of the populous wouldn't have it any other way. "Socialised medicine is an evil thing, everyman for himself"... Idiots. The segment of the country that supports the ACA is even more delusional. The act simply extends the pain to all and that individual mandate is a crime.
 

B_underguy1

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It's an outrage.

My appendix was huge and had to be removed via abdominal surgery. The scar is 6" long. Was in hospital for a week and had a nurse visit for another week at home. I was off work for six weeks. I never saw a bill, due to the fact that Canadian health insurance covered everything. I got 80% of my salary from the unemployment system as well.

At the time, our family of four paid $98.00 per month for insurance. Think it is $152.00 now.

I cannot believe the sky-high rate Americans pay for insurance which includes these deductibles and co-payments. In the past year, our family has paid over $160,000 to cover the treatment and rehab for my sister's minor heart attack.

It's outrageous and has to be the stupidest system imaginable. I mean, if you wanted to design the most inefficient health insurance system you possibly could, you'd do what they did in the USA. I think Obamacare is just going to spread the pain around to a larger group.

When I looked up the rates we would pay for a mid-level "Silver" plan, I just about fell over. Plus the deductibles are crazy. It was $685 per month and would only cover 70% of annual health care costs! yikes.

Even the best gold plans are shit compared to what everyone can have in BC, Canada. The only group getting any "silver or gold" are the insurance companies. The consumer gets the shaft.

Ya'll are getting screwed and the sad/funny part of it is that a huge part of the populous wouldn't have it any other way. "Socialised medicine is an evil thing, everyman for himself"... Idiots. The segment of the country that supports the ACA is even more delusional. The act simply extends the pain to all and that individual mandate is a crime.

Yep. It's nuts.
 
D

deleted15807

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The segment of the country that supports the ACA is even more delusional. The act simply extends the pain to all and that individual mandate is a crime.

American health care has two problems A) One of coverage B) Costs. ACA is an attempt to fix mainly problem A while taking a whack(small) at problem B. No one act is going to fix both. As for the individual mandate is there if it's not obvious so that the sick only buy insurance. No private insurance plan can work if only the one's who make claims buy it.

Costs are another huge issue. Until the fee-for-service model is addressed the full problem of US-style health care will remain illusive.
 
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b.c.

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It's an outrage.

My appendix was huge and had to be removed via abdominal surgery. The scar is 6" long. Was in hospital for a week and had a nurse visit for another week at home. I was off work for six weeks. I never saw a bill, due to the fact that Canadian health insurance covered everything. I got 80% of my salary from the unemployment system as well.

At the time, our family of four paid $98.00 per month for insurance. Think it is $152.00 now.

I cannot believe the sky-high rate Americans pay for insurance which includes these deductibles and co-payments. In the past year, our family has paid over $160,000 to cover the treatment and rehab for my sister's minor heart attack.

It's outrageous and has to be the stupidest system imaginable. I mean, if you wanted to design the most inefficient health insurance system you possibly could, you'd do what they did in the USA. I think Obamacare is just going to spread the pain around to a larger group.

That's the kind of thing I've been critical of here in earlier postings, and some tried to paint me as being anti-doctor or anti-medicine. I'm neither. I am however "anti-getting the shaft", "anti-being screwed", and "anti-being taken to the cleaners".

When I looked up the rates we would pay for a mid-level "Silver" plan, I just about fell over. Plus the deductibles are crazy. It was $685 per month and would only cover 70% of annual health care costs! yikes.

Even the best gold plans are shit compared to what everyone can have in BC, Canada. The only group getting any "silver or gold" are the insurance companies. The consumer gets the shaft.

Ya'll are getting screwed and the sad/funny part of it is that a huge part of the populous wouldn't have it any other way. "Socialised medicine is an evil thing, everyman for himself"... Idiots. The segment of the country that supports the ACA is even more delusional. The act simply extends the pain to all and that individual mandate is a crime.

To be certain, the ACA is hardly ANYTHING resembling a perfect, or even a GOOD plan, at this juncture. I think those of us inclined to defend it (myself at least) consider it a "better than nothing" plan, maybe the only plan they could arrive at, given the opposition to anything better (or in some cases, ANY plan at all), from political opponents, the insurance industry, and the healthcare industry.

Yes, the pain is spread around to a broader base and the insurance companies are still making off like fat rats. But at least they can't pull shit like denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, for example.

As consumers continue to react to and speak out about problems within the ACA (and the "end-arounds" that the industry and opponents seem determined to pull), the law will be tweaked, modified, and adjusted further... and further... HOPEFULLY toward something even REMOTELY resembling true universal healthcare.
 
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Freddie53

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Later, I will respond individually to several posts from the last week or so. Here is my overall philosophy on what are the criteria necessary for a nation to have affordable health care for all who really desire it.


I believe that the only way a democracy can have a chance to succeed is if there is an educated middle class that meets the following:



  1. That has a yearly income enough to afford a home or housing that is safe, protects from the elements, and has enough rooms or square feet to to easily meet the standards that human resources or whatever it is called in a particular state sets for foster children to live. No society can promise to have a fancy mansion with 10,000 square feet. Some people do have the money. Some inherited it or earned it honestly. Others achieved it by stealing. There are books written on this.
  2. That has available free education for all children through high school that compares positively with other western world countries: Japan, UK, France, Germany, Canada, etc.
  3. There will always be private colleges that have very high tuition costs that are more than the median middle class income. Bravo for the students that want to go to those schools whose parents can afford it. For the middle class there needs to be affordable beyond high school education. That includes college, but it also includes many other beyond high school avenues.
  4. Medical insurance should work similarly to the way car insurance is done. Everyone has to have it. Therefore, the cost of medical insurance will drop significantly if somehow the middle class that makes more than 140 % of the poverty income as stated by present US agencies can afford the premiums.
  5. When a significantly number of people work full time, but have salaries that fall into the subsidized plans, the middle of the middle class and the upper part of the middle class through taxes has to pay these subsidies. One reason some of the large corporations have such huge percentage profits is because those corporations are being heavily subsidized by the working middle class to pay the premiums of health insurance. The corporations should be providing health insurance or pay a reasonable salary to all full time employees that this is their career.
  6. I can see paying less for employees who are temporary or are in “get training as you work” High school and college students who are working to have a little extra to buy a new computer, etc. Students age 16 to as high as 22 can gain great on the job education that will pay great dividends later when they finish their education. There are many more examples I'm sure.
  7. There is very good rationale to start a new employee at a rate lower than the employees who have been there a while. Employees starting at a certain amount and getting a raise every month or period of time until they have “mastered” the job position makes good business sense.
  8. I firmly believe that corporations who hire an X (not sure the number 50?) amount of employees should be paying all employees at least 140 % of the poverty level if those corporations are making a profit. The income of two parents working a 40 hour at Wal Mart or McDonalds should make enough to have one car that runs and pay for health insurance, and feed and clothe two or three children as well as themselves.
  9. The average employee at Wal Mart gets about $6500 in some kind of governmental assistance. While some might disagree, I've read the middle and the upper sections of the middle class are subsidizing Wal Mart, etc.about $6500 per associate. I didn't bookmark the source. I'm quite sure it was AlterNet. Consider if Wal Mart, McDonalds etc. paid their employees enough to cut the subsidies their employees get from the government in half to $3250, think what that would do to the federal budget! The deficit would come down significantly.
  10. I also firmly believe that for a society to have a true functioning democracy where the vast majority who are willing to work can get 40 hour a week jobs that pay well enough that they don't have to have governmental assistance except in extraordinary situations.


The middle class is slowly sinking into a standard of living that is considered poverty or just barely above poverty. We have to be realistic. There will for whatever reason be the homeless. There will be a few people who live a standard of living that is at poverty.


There is no utopia where the poorest live like kings; there is no need for prisons; all students in school will be one time for every class because we have increased the passing time to one hour to go to a class down the hall. Some student will still be tardy. Some people will get fired because they are an hour late to work and when they get to the work site do absolutely nothing Unless there is a tremendous change in human behavior, there is no way to legislate everything that might be negative into oblivion.


However, when a nation with the wealth America has, it is a sin that a significant number of people are living in or at poverty and the percentage is increasing despite the fact that the people are willing and eager to get a good paying job and get superior evaluations. The trends since 2008 should be a red flag that something May Be Wrong, Vastly Wrong.


When the large international corporations and the government become totally under the control of the same group, the result is likely to be that the honest working class will get the shaft day after day. The ones that are in on the group will look down at everyone else and come to believe that they are really superior. Some of those that believe in God as a creator may come to believe that somehow they were created superior to the “common people” who don't deserve to have a life anywhere close to the life they live.


Government of the people by the people and for the people will become an illusion. Are we there yet? I don't know. Can we stop the train that is headed there? Americans can. The question is will Americans even try to stop this train toward a total corporatist government.


This post is very relative to this thread. Some of the very rich have come to believe that only they should be granted entitlements, sometimes entitlements in the billions of dollars. These come through tax breaks or special “under the counter” deals where the profits are designed to be very excessive for some while others have been set up to lose a significant amount of everything they have.


Furthermore, many of the ultra rich believe that the ones in poverty in the lower middle class don't deserve and should not get any entitlements from the government. At the same time these ultra rich don't believe they should be required to pay a decent wage for honest work to the “common people.”




Making Obama Care be totally successful entails a lot more than tweaking this or that.
 

Freddie53

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Government Health Programs Save Everyone Money: Study
Government Health Programs Save Everyone Money: Study
Really now? You realize that you are letting the truth noted in these reputable sources take the place of rhetoric based on preconceived notions?:biggrin1:

Obama Care is very flawed.:wink: Obama Care is going to cost billions because we heard that on Fox News.:eek: Surely you aren't going to consider the truth shown on those charts when you can accept what Fox News says. Fox News is never wrong. I know this because I heard it down at the barber shop.:mischievous:
 

Freddie53

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Originally Posted by bar4doug

From the first paragraph of the article:


What a fucking genius....

I hope that everyone realizes that ANY program that gets subsidies from somewhere else will cost the end user less.... It's like getting a match from your employer for a 401-k. It's not as if the total cost is going down, it's just that the cost for the end user is going down. Someone else is still going to pay...

This is written like it should be in Pravda....




The sovereign pays. It reduces the cost to the private sector AND adds to net private sector income.

It's a win win.
You do know a lot about economics. I suspect the insurance companies will reap big new profits as a result of Obama Care.
 

Freddie53

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Originally Posted by bar4doug http://www.lpsg.com/360400-obamacare-65.html#post5025378http://www.lpsg.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
From the first paragraph of the article:


What a fucking genius....

I hope that everyone realizes that ANY program that gets subsidies from somewhere else will cost the end user less.... It's like getting a match from your employer for a 401-k. It's not as if the total cost is going down, it's just that the cost for the end user is going down. Someone else is still going to pay...

This is written like it should be in Pravda....



Your hope is ambitious.

More likely, the fossilized left's "thinking" is that subsidies will be paid by Krugman's magic Trillion Dollar Coin.

Another popular hard left myth is that the combined wealth of the top 1%, when rightfully confiscated, would be sufficient to:

1. Raise the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour.
2. Pay for FREE preschool, college and graduate school FOR ALL, regardless of effectiveness or desirability.
3. Close the federal, state and local deficits.
4. Pay off the nation's $17 trillion and counting public debt.
5. Plug the $75-$100 trillion Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security/Obamacare unfunded liabilities.
6. Extend massive government services and benefits to millions of mostly illiterate, mostly unskilled immigrants likely to contribute little to the tax base.


There may be people in the extreme left who really believe what you have written in this post. While you and I may not agree on everything. The above is not possible. To take all that wealth at one time and a government try to reorganize it will lead to an economic disaster.

The ultra rich do play an important role in a successful economy. However, the ultra rich are bringing in record profits while paying half the percent of taxes on their income that the middle class pays. At the same time the median income of the middle class is dropping.

The tax code and other adjustments need to be made so that the middle class median income is growing about the same rate as the ultra rich median income. That necessitates some adjustments, not a total revolution of our economy.

This has been tried in other countries. As I recall the middle class went down in flames with the ultra rich as there was a total nation wide economic collapse which took years to recover.
 

Eric_8

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Originally Posted by bar4doug http://www.lpsg.com/360400-obamacare-65.html#post5025378http://www.lpsg.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
From the first paragraph of the article:


What a fucking genius....

I hope that everyone realizes that ANY program that gets subsidies from somewhere else will cost the end user less.... It's like getting a match from your employer for a 401-k. It's not as if the total cost is going down, it's just that the cost for the end user is going down. Someone else is still going to pay...

This is written like it should be in Pravda....



There may be people in the extreme left who really believe what you have written in this post. While you and I may not agree on everything. The above is not possible. To take all that wealth at one time and a government try to reorganize it will lead to an economic disaster.

The ultra rich do play an important role in a successful economy. However, the ultra rich are bringing in record profits while paying half the percent of taxes on their income that the middle class pays. At the same time the median income of the middle class is dropping.

The tax code and other adjustments need to be made so that the middle class median income is growing about the same rate as the ultra rich median income. That necessitates some adjustments, not a total revolution of our economy.

This has been tried in other countries. As I recall the middle class went down in flames with the ultra rich as there was a total nation wide economic collapse which took years to recover.

No sane person, regardless of ideology, believes this is a sustainable (or even worthwhile) solution to economic problems.

In other words, there are plenty of far left nitwits that believe it, though, sadly, sheer ignorance is not confined to a single party.
 

B_underguy1

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No sane person, regardless of ideology, believes this is a sustainable (or even worthwhile) solution to economic problems.

In other words, there are plenty of far left nitwits that believe it, though, sadly, sheer ignorance is not confined to a single party.

There is no left left in America.

The ultra rich play no constructive part in an economy that equitably distributes resources.

The existence of the super rich, who require compound interest on their wealth to survive, is unsustainable in a finite world.

Capital needs to provide 3% compound growth to survive. That's why they are killing people en masse.
 

Fuzzy_

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I still can't get in the website. I can get on to look around but to enroll, I can't.

Yes. You can. More than 31,000 applications covering nearly 63,000 Missouri residents were submitted using HealthCare.gov in October and November.

If your computer at home is broken, you can use one at work. If that's broken, you can use a friend's. If that's broken, you can use a computer at a library. If they're all broken, you can go to a cyber cafe.

Anti-Obamacare propaganda is so 2013.
 

h0neymustard

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Yes. You can. More than 31,000 applications covering nearly 63,000 Missouri residents were submitted using HealthCare.gov in October and November.

If your computer at home is broken, you can use one at work. If that's broken, you can use a friend's. If that's broken, you can use a computer at a library. If they're all broken, you can go to a cyber cafe.

Anti-Obamacare propaganda is so 2013.

Ironic, because the people who pushed for voter ID laws said pretty much the same thing regarding how to get one.
 

craigsmith

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I'm Missouri when I vote I have to show my drivers license and voter card. They check the book,find my name,mark it off and give me my ballot. Why can't it be that way in every state? All the people I know have a picture of they got from the DMV.
 

bar4doug

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The tax code and other adjustments need to be made so that the middle class median income is growing about the same rate as the ultra rich median income. That necessitates some adjustments, not a total revolution of our economy.

As I have written before, the problems you describe are not that the rich aren't taxed enough, but that the middle class is taxed too much, and the lower class isn't taxed at all.

The super rich don't need to work. Their money works for them. They can maintain their status simply by collecting interest and dividends. I believe they will find a way to shelter their money if you try to take too much.

The lower class doesn't pay taxes because they don't make enough to pay.

The middle class gets screwed because costs are taking up a greater percentage of their incomes. They are not poor enough to get hand-outs, yet they are not rich enough to not feel any pain.

Income is much different than wealth. If I have 10 billion dollars in cash sitting in a mattress in my bedroom, the government can't tax it (because it was already taxed as income). I could live like hedonism-bot without a care in the world for the rest of my life. The only way they (the government) gets their hands on a piece of my money is when I die and leave it to my heirs, or I give it to someone who must declare it as income, outside of what I spend and am charged sales tax on... The US primarily taxes income, not wealth, and many of the rich earn their income through dividends and interest, and not wages.

You write the tax code needs to be fixed? What do you propose? A 95 percent tax on the rich? A progressive tax on interest / dividend income?

The median middle class income will never grow as fast as the ultra-rich income simply because the middle class doesn't save enough to build up their wealth to have it work for them.
 

OhWiseOne

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People keep saying healthcare is a right. But what does offering free contraceptives have to do with your health?
I know in some cases it helps women with cramps, cycle issues and I'm sure other things that I really can't speak on. In thoses cases it could be provided in a form of a perscription like any other med.