Obama's Girls To Attend Mosque on Weekly Basis

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

I entirely agree with you, in a de jure sense, but it would be equally narrow minded (that's an observation, not an accusation!) to deny that [contitutional protections notwithstanding] the US remains a de facto Christian nation.

With that knowledge one must also remember that Nick lives in a ... different America; a ... special America.

The United States is, by majority population, a Christian influenced nation, I do not dispute that reality (just live with it). However, the nation was founded as a secular culture in which religions can co-exist along side non-believers in peace. To define the United States in the manner Nick did, and I'm not even touching the digs at minorities in education , ignores that fact.

 

[B_Nick4444]

oh, dear!

am I going to have to dig up the actual texts of the historical record?

which clearly show, it was a Christian motivation, given and described as such

 

[joyboytoy79]

oh, dear!

am I going to have to dig up the actual texts of the historical record?

which clearly show, it was a Christian motivation, given and described as such

Yes, because the historical records I've always read have shown that Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, John Adams, James Madison, Ethan Allen, Alexander Hamilton, and even the man who WROTE the constitution, Thomas Jefferson, were all DEISTS. Look up deist for me. Tell me if it equates to "Christian."

I'll give you a hint - the deists deny that Jesus Christ was the son of any god.

 

[mikeyh9in]

As an intelligent person, I have a difficult time taking anyone seriously when they start discussing fairy tales. And that is what the Christian religion is... a fairy tale.

In fact, the majority of the world's religions are just that... fairy tales.

 

[Poivre89]

I don't post much but I will post to say, one of the major philosophers that influenced our country and our forefathers was Voltaire who is more or less some cross between christian, agnostic and a touch secular humanist before humanism existed. Our country was not founded for the concept of Christian freedom, for those who somehow don't know, England was a Christian country, the freedom was the right to practice what one seems is fit to practice and in his or her own way.

For those wildly faux-patriotic people that believe that our country needs Christianity to exist the largest percentage of American's attending church happened after world war two, and then we quickly declined when churches became too powerful. The most successful countries (those with higher life expectancies, better schools, better healthcare) have lower percentages of "believers" of some religion or another in their country.

If Obama is Muslim and he practices, good for him I can respect for having a religion. I know about ten or so muslims (most are from the middle east) that go to school with me and they are very nice people and are (shocking to some I am sure) just like EVERYBODY else.

that's all.

 

[B_Nick4444]

That religion, or duty which we owe to our CREATOR, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore, that men are equally entitled to enjoy the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, Unless the preservation of equal liberty and the existence of the State are manifestly endangered; And that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.[18]


George Mason: Life & Times Essays
/dreisbach_essay.html

Such a one was the author of the Virginia Bill of Rights and Constitution of 1776, the father of the American Bill of Rights proposed in 1789 and adopted in 1791, and grandfather of every other Bill of Rights that has been adopted in the world since that day. That the world’s grand champion of human liberty and dignity should now be America’s most forgotten man, is as he would have it. Of all of the great master pieces of history that flowed from his pen, his only expression of pride of authorship is to be found in a letter addressed to his cousin and childhood playmate and bedfellow, then in England.(1) His reference to the Virginia Bill of Rights in that letter would not have been written had he ever dreamed it might be published, even as it was, 100 years after after his death.
http://rcarterpittman.org/essays/Mason/George_Mason_of_Gunston_Hall.html
The American people are more indebted to George Mason for the liberties they now enjoy than to any other mortal man living or dead. Not since Christ has any one man done more for the masses of men. Those who ride to power, and in power, rough shod over the rights of men seem always to stand in marble on our public squares, while those who carry the torch of freedom are soon forgotten—perhaps to be re-discovered centuries later.

George Mason of Gunston Hall (1725-1792)

​

 

[B_Nick4444]

As an intelligent person,

thanx for letting us in on that!

 

[B_Nick4444]

I don't post much

our loss, I'm sure ...

 

[canuck_pa]

It never surprises me how some people will believe anything as long as it supports their beliefs or arguments even when it's proven to be a lie.

In this case, what difference would it make of President Obama is a Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Jew? The world has seen too many examples of how unchristian Christians can be.

 

[Bbucko]

oh, dear!

am I going to have to dig up the actual texts of the historical record?

which clearly show, it was a Christian motivation, given and described as such

Do that. Please do.

EDIT: I really do need to read entire threads before posting. My bad.

What Nick has posted is of historical relevance to Virginia, not the nation as a whole.

One Christian out of a crowd of Deists does not a "Christian Nation" make.

 

[B_Nick4444]

Do that. Please do.

EDIT: I really do need to read entire threads before posting. My bad.

What Nick has posted is of historical relevance to Virginia, not the nation as a whole.

One Christian out of a crowd of Deists does not a "Christian Nation"
make.

you might want to review the articles

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

oh, dear!

am I going to have to dig up the actual texts of the historical record?

which clearly show, it was a Christian motivation, given and described as such

Jefferson on Christianity in government -

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity."

"What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

"Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception, they flourish infinitely. Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all in sufficient to preserve peace and order [...] their harmony is unparralelled and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. [...] Let us too give this experiment fair play"*

James Madison was of a similar mind set. Just because these men couch their rhetoric in religious tones, it does not mean their vision of America was anything but secular.

*All quotes from Notes on the State of Virginia, T . Jefferson.
I'm not typing out any more (because I'm 'busy' :smile, but if you read his writings you'll find his view of Christianity is fairly negative. Although, he does make a positive statement about Christianity when comparing to other world religions.

 

[B_Nick4444]

yes -- their arguments against the establishment of a State religion (as Britain had)

hence, the need and argument for a freedom of religion clause

Jefferson on Christianity in government -

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity."

"What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

"Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception, they flourish infinitely. Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough; all in sufficient to preserve peace and order [...] their harmony is unparralelled and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. [...] Let us too give this experiment fair play"*

James Madison was of a similar mind set. Just because these men couch their rhetoric in religious tones, it does not mean their vision of America was anything but secular.

*All quotes from Notes on the State of Virginia, T . Jefferson.
I'm not typing out any more (because I'm 'busy' :smile, but if you read his writings you'll find his view of Christianity is fairly negative. Although, he does make a positive statement about Christianity when comparing to other world religions.

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

yes -- their arguments against the establishment of a State religion (as Britain had)

hence, the need and argument for a freedom of religion clause

Actually, his argument is against both Christianity and state sponsored religion.

 

[B_Nick4444]

the quote can be found at page 162 of "Jefferson's Declaration of Independence", by Allen Jayne ( Jefferson's Declaration of ... - Google Book Search ) -- the discussion is on the arguments, pro and con, for the establishment of a State religion, citing the different positions of different philosophers

the quotes begins: "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. ..."

Jefferson was of the mind that different men would come to hold different views

what he was describing was the effects of trying to impose a State religion, and the historical Christian experience

I might add, what we see of Islam yesterday, today, and tomorrow

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

the quote can be found at page 162 of "Jefferson's Declaration of Independence", by Allen Jayne ( Jefferson's Declaration of ... - Google Book Search ) -- the discussion is on the arguments, pro and con, for the establishment of a State religion, citing the different positions of different philosophers

the quotes begins: "Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. ..."

Jefferson was of the mind that different men would come to hold different views

what he was describing was the effects of trying to impose a State religion, and the historical Christian experience

I might add, what we see of Islam today

Again, Jefferson discusses his issue with both Christianity and state sponsored religion, I recommend gives his writings a read. You'll find that he, nor James Madison, someone else I suggest reading, were no proponents of Christianity. Certainly not in the founding of the secular United States.

 

[D_Tully Tunnelrat]

Unless the preservation of equal liberty and the existence of the State are manifestly endangered; And that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.

Right, we are so Christian as allow love, and charity to all, but still we deferred a resolution to the moral blight of slavery for another 84 years.

Even the Pledge of Allegiance states one nation under God, but God is not defined as Christian, so he/she can be yours/mine, or anothers.

The url pointed me to a video of FK attending a mosque in St. Bart's. Where, no doubt he'll be simmering this weekend. :biggrin1:

 

[B_Nick4444]

Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

Thomas Jefferson

 

[B_Nick4444]

Right, we are so Christian as allow love, and charity to all, but still we deferred a resolution to the moral blight of slavery for another 84 years.

overturned and abolished thanks to the unceasing work of radical Christians -- the American Quakers

Even the Pledge of Allegiance states one nation under God, but God is not defined as Christian, so he/she can be yours/mine, or anothers.

pretty much as Rilke or I would say

The url pointed me to a video of FK attending a mosque in St. Bart's. Where, no doubt he'll be simmering this weekend. :biggrin1:

ah, well!

 

[D_Fiona_Farvel]

Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."

Thomas Jefferson

Likewise, I could use quotes from Notes or a bio of Jefferson, or through Google, where Jefferson rips Christianity and states it is worthless in modern society because 'reason' exists - but then, it could go on all day.

So, I'll state that my interpretation is available in all of my above posts, if you disagree, so be it. :shrug: