Obama's Girls To Attend Mosque on Weekly Basis

midlifebear

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:popcorn:Fabulous Nick:

Actually appreciated your post with the Thomas Payne references, seriously. But -- and this is just a personal observation -- I would avoid the use of the word invoke and use something like cite or quote and note when you're paraphrasing. Invoke sort of makes you sound a bit like Harry Potter. Regardless, I'm very entertained. Still, good post. Thanks. :popcorn:
 

JustAsking

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"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819

TJ denied everything regarding the divinity of Jesus. He even created his own translation of the New Testament taking our everything that mentioned the divinity of Jesus.

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." --- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentence toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, 1820

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

Every person, of whatever religious denomination he may be, is a DEIST in the first article of his Creed. Deism, from the Latin word Deus, God, is the belief of a God, and this belief is the first article of every man's creed. It is on this article, universally consented to by all mankind, that the Deist builds his church, and here he rests.

Whenever we step aside from this article, by mixing it with articles of human invention, we wander into a labyrinth of uncertainty and fable, and become exposed to every kind of imposition by pretenders to revelation...


The Deist needs none of those tricks and shows called miracles to confirm his faith, for what can be a greater miracle than the creation itself, and his own existence?

There is a happiness in Deism, when rightly understood, that is not to be found in any other system of religion. All other systems have something in them that either shock our reason, or are repugnant to it, and man, if he thinks at all, must stifle his reason in order to force himself to believe them.
But in Deism our reason and our belief become happily united. The wonderful structure of the universe, and everything we behold in the system of the creation, prove to us, far better than books can do, the existence of a God, and at the same time proclaim His attributes.
-- Thomas Pain on Deism


"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." --- John Adams, letter to John Taylor

Its no wonder that most of the Ten Commandments are made illegal by The Constitution.
 

Bbucko

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Answer for me - must a Christian believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, and/or that the Bible is the word of God?

couldn't say -- that's a theological question outside of the scope of what I was discussing, which was: what set of values brought forth the Bill of Rights -- the answer, clearly (in spite of attempts by the secular humanists to redefine) is Christian

This is a high point in Nick4444's LPSG posting career. Though he cannot define what a Christian actually is (and setting the bar at Christ's divinity is rather low), he knows that the US is and was founded as a Christian nation.

I also note, in passing, that he's not so hot on Catholics. Evidently 1000+ hundred years of Roman-style Christianity doesn't quite pass the sniff test.
 
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Woah. Only just jumped on the end of this one. Can I just remind everyone (sorry if this has already been said) that there is a separation of the Church and State in the US, much like here in Australia. It's even covered in the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." And corroborated in article 6 of the constitution: "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States"

It should make no difference as to what a President's or Prime Ministers et religious tradition is, because it is the responsibility of the parliament (congress in the US I think) to create a balance and check, so that anything deemed too outrageous, irrespective of whether it has to do with religion or not, can be argued and so forth. Just as a hypothetical, why would a Muslim Presidnet/leader be a bad thing. Can they really stuff laws up as badly as the Christian leaders of the world? Anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, anyone?? The governemnt in the US is a democracy, a governemnt of the people, elected by the people, for the people. Not a government of the people, elected by the people, for the representatives own personal views based on whatever kind of dogma they believe in.


It's the 21st century. how about a little bit of religious tolerance? We might all end up getting along.
 

B_Nick4444

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I forget how impressive you guys can be

as far as the Catholics, nothing against them, per se, but compare JA's quotations, reflecting the line of inquiry, the search in history, and the constant questioning that the Protestant Revolution enabled and fostered

Indeed, what Christ did within the context of Judaism -- refined it of its gloss to get the heart of the matter, as you see the Founding Fathers quoted doing -- "ASK!, (and ye shall receive)
"

that and the distinction between God and Caesar are the core of the Christian tradition

values the Founding Fathers embodied
 

B_Nick4444

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This is a high point in Nick4444's LPSG posting career. Though he cannot define what a Christian actually is (and setting the bar at Christ's divinity is rather low), he knows that the US is and was founded as a Christian nation.


if you want to venture into theology, the argument can be made that one does not have to believe in Christ, as JBT alluded, either divine or not divine, to be a Christian, based on a statement ascribed to Christ himself

as I recall it went something to effect that you may disparage God, you may disparage Christ, but you may not disparage the Spirit

construing that to mean that if you disparage the Spirit, you cease the quest, ceasing the quest, you will not make the discovery

but agian, the point of the thread was not theology, but the cultural context the Founding Fathers operated in, and had to pitch their pleas in, the terms within which they had to build their case, and justify their actions
 

joyboytoy79

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OK, so we've jumped from "values" to "tradition." Which is it Nick? They are completely different concepts.

Not that it matters, you are displaying the circular logic of one who has no inclination toward either reality or reason. You can't link the ideas in the Bill of Rights to Jesus' words, so that's suddenly not what the argument is about. You can't prove that the values are inherently and exclusively Christian (originating from Christ), so now it's about tradition.

The truth of the matter is you can't link your concept of a Christian US Nation to anything tangible, and so you've resorted to name-calling and insinuation. I expected more from you.

The US is a secular nation. The constitution provides that any public official may be of any or no religious denomination whatsoever, and has the right to keep that information private. That would and does include the president. Your failure to prove otherwise rests in the fact that the is no proof to the contrary. It really is a simple matter of fact, and has nothing at all to do with how clever one thinks he is.

If Obama's daughters attend Mosque weekly, if Michelle Obama performs Voodoo ceremonies in the Rose Garden, and if Barack himself worships Satan in the basement it is not the right of the American people to know and/or judge him or his family about it. It is perfectly within his, and his family's rights to worship or not, as they choose, privately, as designated clearly by the Bill of Rights.
 

B_Nick4444

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dude!

have you even read the posts?
:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:


(that BTW, concludes my posting on this thread -- marvy audience)

OK, so we've jumped from "values" to "tradition." Which is it Nick? They are completely different concepts.

Not that it matters, you are displaying the circular logic of one who has no inclination toward either reality or reason. You can't link the ideas in the Bill of Rights to Jesus' words, so that's suddenly not what the argument is about. You can't prove that the values are inherently and exclusively Christian (originating from Christ), so now it's about tradition.

The truth of the matter is you can't link your concept of a Christian US Nation to anything tangible, and so you've resorted to name-calling and insinuation. I expected more from you.

The US is a secular nation. The constitution provides that any public official may be of any or no religious denomination whatsoever, and has the right to keep that information private. That would and does include the president. Your failure to prove otherwise rests in the fact that the is no proof to the contrary. It really is a simple matter of fact, and has nothing at all to do with how clever one thinks he is.

If Obama's daughters attend Mosque weekly, if Michelle Obama performs Voodoo ceremonies in the Rose Garden, and if Barack himself worships Satan in the basement it is not the right of the American people to know and/or judge him or his family about it. It is perfectly within his, and his family's rights to worship or not, as they choose, privately, as designated clearly by the Bill of Rights.
 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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and if they did go to mosque, what difference would it make? this is a country where you have religious freedom. does that mean facequeen is an unpatriotic commie?


No difference except that the country was founded on Christian Principles and Barack flat out said he was a Christian. had the voters known this I bet he wouldn't be in office right now.

This also explains why he's hell bent on prosecuting people who put panties on abu garib scum. meanwhile the borders go unchecked and swine flu is comming to a pleace near you.

A+ Barack. A+
 

Jason

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If Obama's daughters attend Mosque weekly, if Michelle Obama performs Voodoo ceremonies in the Rose Garden, and if Barack himself worships Satan in the basement it is not the right of the American people to know and/or judge him or his family about it. It is perfectly within his, and his family's rights to worship or not, as they choose, privately, as designated clearly by the Bill of Rights.

Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. But that doesn't mean that we are all happy about all the ways people chose to express that right.

For Christians the big problem with Islam is that it specifically denies that Jesus is the son of God, and therefore denies the resurrection and the redemption of sins. For Christians, Islam is blasphemy. Some would see the Koran as inspired not by an angel of God but by a fallen angel of the devil, and therefore Mohammed was devil-led (or some would even say the devil). The US constitution gives people the right to freedom of religion, but that does not stop many weeping at the way in which this right is used.

For Obama to be sending his children to a mosque is not compatible with Christianity. If he is using his children as pawns to make some political point then he should be ashamed of himself.
 

Jason

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No difference except that the country was founded on Christian Principles and Barack flat out said he was a Christian. had the voters known this I bet he wouldn't be in office right now.

There's a basic issue of truthfulness. Is Obama Christian, Moslem, or a simple Don't Know? He can be any one of these. But he can't be two. I know Islam is part of the cultural heritage of his children, and it is certainly right that they should know about Islam, and appropriate for them to see a service in a mosque. But to be sent along to take part in such a service every week just doesn't fit Christianity. So is the conclusion that Obama is not Christian? If this is so he is telling fibs in claiming to be Christian.
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

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Freedom of religion is a fundamental right. But that doesn't mean that we are all happy about all the ways people chose to express that right.

For Christians the big problem with Islam is that it specifically denies that Jesus is the son of God, and therefore denies the resurrection and the redemption of sins. For Christians, Islam is blasphemy. Some would see the Koran as inspired not by an angel of God but by a fallen angel of the devil, and therefore Mohammed was devil-led (or some would even say the devil). The US constitution gives people the right to freedom of religion, but that does not stop many weeping at the way in which this right is used.

For Obama to be sending his children to a mosque is not compatible with Christianity. If he is using his children as pawns to make some political point then he should be ashamed of himself.
:rolleyes:
Read the first post, it was a joke.
http://www.lpsg.org/131279-obamas-girls-attend-mosque-weekly.html#post2100794

However, if it were true, how he chooses to raise his children is none of anyone's business and nothing to feel shame over.
 

D_Tully Tunnelrat

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Aren't most religions exclusionary?

By definition.

I can't believe we are debating the merits of one religion vs. another. If all mono theistic faiths believe in one God, then by definition the God described by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, is the same God. How can the interpretations then be so different? Because of the human element, regardless of the tenants, and shibboleths put forth, humans "divine" their own interpretations, hence making religion less about God, and more about man. Thank God (pun intended) civil laws based upon a common morality, which can be debated and revised were created, otherwise we'd all be living under our own religion's version of Sharia law. Or worse someone else's.

And Nick, I am not trying to gang up on you, but for every Quaker that opposed slavery, there were 99% of all the other Christians who did not. No people or religion are inherently better than another.
 

Average_joe

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This interesting development is starting to hit the wires, curious if it's purposely being let out to simmer out over the weekend.

Obama's Girls To Attend Mosque on Weekly Basis

Faceking, even though we don't seem to agree on anything, and you quite often drive me to fits of apoplexy, that was one of the funniest things I have seen in a long time. It just goes to show that despite what people may believe, there are still things we can find in common with each other.
 
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