Obama's hollowing out of Middle Class America

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_spiker067, Mar 4, 2009.

  1. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    $6 Trillion in mortgages have balloned into $60 Trillion in NAKED CDO's that are being paid out WITH TAX PAYER MONEY by AIG to speculators.

    Low income mortgage holders who pay their mortgages on time are going to get $5,000 cash incentives to do so.... FROM TAXPAYER MONEY!

    Hello, anybody home?

    AIG doesn't have to be allowed to pay in full on CDS and we don't have to pay people to pay their mortgages on time.

    THIS IS THE GREATEST REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN!!!

    Thank you Obama.
     
  2. midlifebear

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    Actually, the greatest continuing redistribution of wealth the world has ever seen has been and continues to be the USA's unchanged policy of buying as much foreign oil as possible from Canada, Middle Eastern Countries, Venezuela (still), México, previous satellite countries of yea olde Soviet Union, Asia, and anyone 13 miles off shore of the USA with a barrel of crude to deal as if it were a kilo of [put name of favorite addictive drug here] regardless of quality, to sell to any oil company within 13 miles of the USA shoreline.

    This in-country economic crisis issue is chump change in comparison.
     
  3. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    You're most welcome, I'm sure.
     
  4. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Chump change that is driving down a spiralling economy!!!

    At least oil ostensibly fuels an economy (until alternatives are implemented: biodiesel from algae, solar stirling engines, nuclear plants, etc...)
     
  5. Phil Ayesho

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    You should not spout nonsense about matters you don't understand.

    This nation is in massive debt.
    That debt has accumulated due to Bush and GOP congress lowering taxes, and hence government revenue... and spending a shitload of money they did not have, that they did not even honestly report, by BORROWING the difference.

    Bush nearly doubled the size of the federal government ( so much for small government) And Bush was the one who borrowed an additional trillion dollars that he handed over to mismanaged financial corporation with no strings attached and no questions asked.

    That massive deficit... the near dismantling of Fema as an effective agency, the creation of a new and constitutionally invasive Homeland Security... and two wars that benefit only heroin traffickers, Taliban and Al Queada recruiters and oil conglomerates...
    ALL of that paid for by Borrowed money that you will have to pay back, with interest.

    And let's not even get into the fact that the financial sector failed as the direct result of Republican Free Market deregulation and 'every man for himself' economic policy.

    THAT is the pickle we are in


    Yes, Obama's bailouts have ADDED to the deficit... but they are nothing near the deficit that republican leaderhsip racked up over the past 8 years.


    Moreover... people who understand the economy- people like Alan Greenspan, and people Like Warren Buffet, have ALL stated unequivocally that the CAUSE of the great depression was 4 years of Republican INACTIVITY after the crash.

    They have all stated that, as much as it sucks to give these mismanaged banks money... that the alternative would only hurt the middle class vastly more.

    And you are entirely wrong about the mortgage issue.

    Helping those snookered by unscrupulous mortgage vendors is going to help SAVE the middle class, since they were the ones most preyed upon.

    The assistance is coupled with re-negotiation of the debts, which means the lenders have to eat part of the loss.
     
  6. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    You're the one who doesn't know what you are talking about.

    You wanna grab Bush and Chenney and take them out back and put a bullet in them, go ahead. I never liked them. I'm talking about right here and right now and these fucked up ideas that are driving us deeper.

    P.S. Deregulation of the markets was a hand in hand job of congress' both houses with both Republicans and Democrats to blame (the blame is 60/40).

    P.P.S. Your long post was nothing but a bunch of old crap. What you've said has been said over and over again. You've added nothing.
     
  7. HazelGod

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    Hmmm...I bought a house worth a bit less than those my knucklehead colleagues mortgaged themselves to the eyeballs for, and I've got an impeccable payment history. Does this mean I'll qualify for the $5k assistance offer?
     
  8. millionman

    millionman Active Member

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    Wow, I can only assume that you think you know the "truth" as it's all President Bush's fault. He was directly responsible for the likes or Barney Frank and Harry Reed using Congressional "influence" to push risky mortgage practices and to allow Freddie and Fannie to balloon to 800% larger than their asset sheet. Give me a break.

    Both parties are responsible for where we are, by not even attempting to oversee these massive companies and their risky investment and lending practices. Neither side is without blame for this, and in all reality we THE PEOPLE should be standing up to the current administration and saying NO MORE. The programs that are proposed in the "stimulus" plan will not stimulate ANYTHING, and the CBO as much as said so prior to it's passing. Let's not mention that the Dems promised the PEOPLE that we would have access to the bill in it's entirety for 48 hours. That did not happen, and in fact the whole reason for that is because it's a BAD BILL that should have been REDONE in it's totality. What does a sculptor need $196,000 to complete 3 works of "art" involving dogs humping, shitting, and sitting? As far as I can tell that only helps one person. It only gets worse from there.

    We don't need "stimulus" we need for these massive companies like AIG, Wachovia, Bank of America, and the Big 3 to be allowed to fail. The companies should be forced to pay for their bad practices. Not to mention that if they are allowed to declare bankruptcy then the functioning and productive aspects of the company will remain intact and can be bought up by a more stable company. This concept of being too big to fail is absolutely insanne and is an excuse for the goverment to get even more involved.

    It still amazes me that more Americans, regardles of praty affiliation, are not angered by this huge interference the goverment is now running for these corporations. This recession is no worse than recession of the 1980s, but the fear mongering left wants us to believe that the Depression is right on our door step, even though these were the same people who shouted from the roof tops against the Bush "fear tactics".

    It is thought that this package will actually slow down economic growth because of the MASSIVE tax increases we will all esperience. It's not just those making $250,000 that will get an increase, it's everyone. How else will we be able to pay for all of the entielment programs in the $400 billion budget? We need to stand up and be accounted for, this is not the "change" that most people bought into, and if unemployment keeps going up then it will only be hopelessness and not the "hope" that was promised.
     
  9. Flashy

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    nope.

    (i expect you already knew the answer to that though :smile: )
     
  10. Flashy

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    While i agree with many of your points, my friend, there are certain companies, like AIG, that cannot be allowed to fail.

    I don't care if any of the Big 3 automakers fails, as they are already burning through their bailout cash with no improvement whatsoever, but AIG has far deeper roots, and AIG failing has far greater implications, not just for us, but for the European Markets as well, since AIG has underwritten roughly 300 billion worth of credit protection for European Banks.

    Christine Lagarde (French Finance Minister) practically begged Paulson to bail out AIG in September

    and the 300 billion was for "regulatory capital relief rather than risk mitigation. In other words, it was underpinning a disguised extension of credit leverage."

    If AIG collapses completely and its rating is lowered, the shock waves throughout Europe will be just as dire as the ones here.
     
  11. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    NAKED bets don't have to be covered. Return their money plus interest and no more is the solution.

    -or-

    The bookies' offices got raided - ALL naked BETS ARE OFF!!!
     
  12. Flashy

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    It is not that simple, my friend. (though i certainly would like it to be)
     
  13. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    AS far as I'm concerned it is that simple. You have to show why it isn't without using the crutch of financial terminology.

    If I put 50 bucks on Pittsburgh, I'd be glad to have my money back plus 10% even after winning the bet if my bookie got himself arrested.
     
    #13 B_spiker067, Mar 4, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2009
  14. Flashy

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    Because

    -AIG the entity is broke and it is actually the government who is paying off AIG's counterparties
    -the bailout money is not going to "AIG" per se, it is going to pay off the insurance that was bought protecting clients against just such a meltdown as well as the CDO and CDS products.
    -the losses are adding up because most of the products are still active and cannot be traded, since there is virtually no market for these radioactive securities now.
    - the problem is that CDO's, CDS and MBS are all very complicated products, each with a variety of owners rights' complications regarding underlying securities.

    I have several friends who worked on trading desks in these products and frankly, they are fucking baffling.

    i used to trade commodiy futures, mostly indexes and bonds...i would not go near the CDO/CDS/MBS products.

    nobody really can track ownership of the products effectively, nobody seems to know who has collection rights on the underlying security...

    frankly, the mess is enormous and makes the S&L crisis look like a happy bakesale.

    As for AIG, the problem was not in their core businesses, it was in the London unit that sold all of these products
     
  15. fizzyjizz

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    Why do people post political threads on a big cock site? Aren't there any political sites you could use to vent ur frustration?
     
  16. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    (Pardon the vulgarity) Why the fuck do you care? Why do you read the threads in the "POLITICAL" forum?

    It is not that you are offended. It is that it threatens your perspective on the world.

    Fess up.
     
  17. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    They talked about a controlled bankruptcy for the auto industry and that is all that this would be.

    Is the gist of your argument that it is too complicated to figure it out and so let's just pay it all out?

    Here's a clue. You worked in the industry and that is why you _believe_ they have to be paid. They don't.

    All we should be hearing at AIG today is, "Show me you own the mortgage or get the fuck out."
     
  18. Flashy

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    It really isn't that simple my friend.

    no, it is not the gist of it being too complicated so "let's just pay it all out".

    CDO's, CDS and MBS are too complicated too explain here. Not the importance of bailing out AIG.

    It is not a question of complication, it is a question of the repayment of the money given to AIG, which is a very fundamentally sound business under the mountain of shit that the financial arm put the whole company into.

    It is not a question of me working in the field.

    I did not work in AIG's field. I was not in insurance. AIG was a diversified company, that took a big hit because of its derivatives trading arm

    it is not a question of me being in the industry and you not being there.

    AIG's failure would affect you just as much as it would me.

    The reason why they must be paid is incorrect. they are not being "paid."

    The money is being given to them because they are a financial intermediary. the 150 billion that has been given to them so far, comes in and goes out just as quickly to the counterparties...it is providing liquidity, to a sector that was frozen and locked up.


    AIG has 74 million insurance policies in 130 countries worldwide and they cover so many different products, services and industries, that their failure would be catastrophic.

    They still have solid, profitable companies that are not only profitable, but are vital.

    Also, the money is not just thrown down the toilet. much of the bailout money has very specific terms for repayment of taxpayers, inclduing preferred stock and very high dividends.

    The government is counting on the fact that once it can clear off the toxic assets, there are some very solid and important core businesses that have always created large profits.

    AIG is a company with over a trillion dollars in assets and it cannot be allowed to fail, because the chaos that would ensue to all those who are linked to AIG would be massive and devastating.

    American Banks rely on AIG to back over 300 billion in assets through the derivatives they underwrote.

    there are so many people and companies worldwide that have exposure to AIG, that its failure would be even more devastating then what we have already seen.

    Imagine Lehman Brothers, then multiply it by 50.

    AIG provides insurance against financial instruments such as mortgage backed securities failing...so what happens, when companies like European and american banks who have bought that insurance against these securities failing, are no longer being paid the insurance now that all those products have failed?

    Catastrophe.

    When Lehman, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley and many other institutions wrote down billions in debts and losses, who do you think payed out the insurance on that?

    What happens when the firms still losing money or others who are insured against fire or floods have to collect, (the reason for insurance) if AIG collapses and cannot pay those monies? They are left busted as well and then think what happens.

    AIG is/was the largest insurance company on earth. It insures not just people, but massive institutions.

    Its failure is not an option, regardless of whether one was in its particular industry or not.

    It would be the largest financial disaster in history.

    I say it again.

    Catastrophe.

    The entire insurance market would be utterly destroyed. AIG is directly or indirectly involved in every major insurance bond in some way.

    there subsidiaries and agents are massive and global and everywhere, and in everything.

    the exposure of people and institutions that hold AIG's 70 million insurance policies...i say that again...70 *MILLION* policies, would be left completely exposed.

    The fact is, that no matter the price of the bailout of AIG, it is a pittance compared to what the cost of its collapse would be.

    Its failure is a risk to our entire financial system, and by effect that of the world as well.


    I cannot emphasize strongly enough again, just how enormous and devastating the collapse of AIG could be.

    It has ties to almost every major financial firm in the world, as a counterparty and insurer etc.

    this is not GM, or Chrysler or Ford whose impact are tiny in comparison

    this is/was the largest global insurance conglomerate.

    it would be catastrophic.

    i say it again

    Catastrophic.
     
  19. sargon20

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    Because they don't have big cocks to support?
    :eek:
     
  20. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    I didn't say let it fail. I said stop paying for the NAKED CDS.

    Why do you keep ignoring the point?
     
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