Obama's Position on Israel

Jason

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I do not see why we should accept that victory, it is brutal, the palestinians have almost no control over their lives, restricted freedom of travel, expression. There have been tens of thousands of home demolitions, four million palestinians are in refugee camps...

The starting point is that we must accept that we are powerless to do anything other than accept the "victory" - just as we are powerless to do anything about China's occupation of Tibet for more than half a century, or the more recent annexation of the Georgian territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by Russia. It is not about reflecting who is right or wrong but reflecting who has power. That Israel is wrong (morally and legally) is irrelevant, while sympathy for the plight of Palestinians without doing anything to improve their lot is pointless.

This is the lesson that the UK has taken from the Troubles in Ireland. We have got peace by releasing from gaol many hundreds of terrorist murderers and by granting the political party most closely linked with the IRA real power in the Northern Ireland assembly. We've got past the stumbling block of thinking that because terrorism is wrong we must punish the political party that supported terrorism and the community some members of which support terrorism. We have turned the other cheek.

IMO the Middle East process will continue to fail until we have a comparable moving on. The issues we have about Israel are not what is important - the reality is that the solution that has a chance of working is a single Israel with a Palestinian authority short of a state. We then have the major challenge of finding a way forward for the Palestinian people which reflects their rights. This is an enormous challenge but it is possible to imagine a way forward. The present predicament of the Palestinians is ghastly. Obama's 1967 borders idea won't happen and is just going to prevent any meaningful discussion taking place - IMO it is the most damaging comment on the Middle East for a very long time. Instead we need to be discussing ideas that might work.
 

Calboner

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The Anti Defamation League weighs in:
ADL’s Abraham Foxman: Obama didn’t throw Israel under the bus. . .

ADL’s Abraham Foxman: Obama didn’t throw Israel under the bus - The Plum Line - The Washington Post

Abe Foxman talking sense? Ow! That makes my brain hurt!

Palestinian should be given the land they had 3000 years ago.

I'm not sure if you mean to refer to the ancient Israelites or to the Canaanites who were displaced by the them. Even if this was meant ironically (as I hope it was), I can't tell what you were trying to suggest.

Not going to happen Israel and the jewish community have a strong hand in the media and can manipulate things their own way. Ask your senators have they had a holiday to Israel lately. Its common here in the uk it's a well to help relations i think its called.

(1) What is "not going to happen"?

(2) Your lumping together of Israel and "the jewish [sic] community" (by which I take you to mean the Jewish community in the US--but I don't know: perhaps you mean all the Jews in the world) as a single agent is a paranoid fantasy.

(3) "Can manipulate things their own way": which things? Mearsheimer and Walt's book The Israel Lobby contains loads of examples of the disproportionate influence of AIPAC and related organizations on American policy regarding Israel, but even they distinguish the aims and interests of the Israel lobby from those of Israel and those of Jewish Americans.

(4) And even they don't buy into the canard of Jews controlling the media, as you do.
 
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englad

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The starting point is that we must accept that we are powerless to do anything other than accept the "victory" - just as we are powerless to do anything about China's occupation of Tibet for more than half a century, or the more recent annexation of the Georgian territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by Russia. It is not about reflecting who is right or wrong but reflecting who has power. That Israel is wrong (morally and legally) is irrelevant, while sympathy for the plight of Palestinians without doing anything to improve their lot is pointless.

sorry but still don't agree, China's occupation of tibet is a different ball game one we are powerless to stop at the moment. And china is far less likely to be affected by international condemnation. But israel has a military that has been funded with massive injections of wealth and arms (mostly from the US). This is the reason why it has the the second largest fleet of F-16s in the world. Israel is very much dependent on aid from the international community, if it is denounced and isolated for the occupation it will eventually succumb to pressure from the international community. The continued support of them is a poisoned arrow in international relations and is far more damaging than pressuring them to signing a just peace. The "let's just give in tactic" holds no water.
 

SlamminSammy

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The starting point is that we must accept that we are powerless to do anything other than accept the "victory" - just as we are powerless to do anything about China's occupation of Tibet for more than half a century, or the more recent annexation of the Georgian territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by Russia. It is not about reflecting who is right or wrong but reflecting who has power. That Israel is wrong (morally and legally) is irrelevant, while sympathy for the plight of Palestinians without doing anything to improve their lot is pointless.

sorry but still don't agree, China's occupation of tibet is a different ball game one we are powerless to stop at the moment. And china is far less likely to be affected by international condemnation. But israel has a military that has been funded with massive injections of wealth and arms (mostly from the US). This is the reason why it has the the second largest fleet of F-16s in the world. Israel is very much dependent on aid from the international community, if it is denounced and isolated for the occupation it will eventually succumb to pressure from the international community. The continued support of them is a poisoned arrow in international relations and is far more damaging than pressuring them to signing a just peace. The "let's just give in tactic" holds no water.
Thank you for pointing out how large of an Air Force they have thanks to the US' contribution. Why does a supposedly peaceful country the size of Rhode Island need an Air Force that large? Why do we never hear of their vast Air Force leading or even participating in air strikes in all of our Mideast wars if they're supposedly our biggest Mideast ally? With an Air Force like theirs, it's a joke to hear their leaders cry that they will be "defenseless" against attack if they abide by the borders established in 1967!
 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

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Personally, I feel it is extremely hypocritical for the United States to be lecturing Israel when we still have the indigenous people stuck on reservations. Their land is grossly mismanaged by the government. The government has helped bilk them out of billions of dollars in revenue from the natural resources on the land. To top it all off, they have been the victims of genocide. Their children were taken from them, and put into abusive systems where the government tried to brainwash them into forsaking their culture and heritage. Many of the children were abused, sexually assaulted, and died from disease. The goal was to make them like mainstream society. It's the whole cookware department talking about the kettle.
Some of the posts on this thread show open racist attitudes toward Jews. Such a lovely pile of hypocrisy.
 
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vince

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Personally, I feel it is extremely hypocritical for the United States to be lecturing Israel when we still have the indigenous people stuck on reservations. Their land is grossly mismanaged by the government. The government has helped bilk them out of billions of dollars in revenue from the natural resources on the land. To top it all off, they have been the victims of genocide. Their children were taken from them, and put into abusive systems where the government tried to brainwash them into forsaking their culture and heritage. Many of the children were abused, sexually assaulted, and died from disease. The goal was to make them like mainstream society. It's the whole cookware department talking about the kettle.
Some of the posts on this thread show open racist attitudes toward Jews. Such a lovely pile of hypocrisy.
What you write about the American Natives is true hootie. I agree it is hypocritical for the US to lecture anyone about human rights or genocides, but two wrongs don't make a right. Furthermore, why would you not extend the same sympathy towards the Palestinians as you do towards Jews and American natives? It is NOT racist the be critical of Israel and it's government or it's policies. You'd think by now that people would have wised up to the tactic of raising the racist flag every time someone criticizes the State of Israel.

Yes, Jews have been victims of racism. So have countless other groups including Palestinian Arabs. Yet in America, for the past 50 years, there is this one-sided presentation of the situation, and at the side time a cynical policy of arming all sides and doing business with all sides. It may be the old divide and conquer strategy.

The idea that the Palestinians must accept reality and whatever the Israelis are willing to let them have may sound good in theory, but it is very naive. Why would they accept that? Who would? This is not Ireland and just because the Sinn Féin and the British government have accepted each other as evils who are not going away, doesn't mean that that model will apply here in the Mid-East. Not to diminish what the British did to the Irish going back for centuries, but what the Palestinians have experienced in the twentieth century and how they live now is 100 times worse than the situation of the Catholics of N. Ireland. I have been to both places and believe me, I'd rather live in Belfast under any condition than live in Gaza. The Palestinian people are not going to go away and forget about it.

The idea that President Obama has made the most damaging comment on the Middle East for a very long time is ridiculous. Every American President since LBJ has said the same thing. No difference. Except certain people don't like Obama and will use and twist everything he says or does in such a way to make a political point. This is politics and both the right and the left do it.
 
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englad

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Personally, I feel it is extremely hypocritical for the United States to be lecturing Israel when we still have the indigenous people stuck on reservations. Their land is grossly mismanaged by the government. The government has helped bilk them out of billions of dollars in revenue from the natural resources on the land. To top it all off, they have been the victims of genocide. Their children were taken from them, and put into abusive systems where the government tried to brainwash them into forsaking their culture and heritage. Many of the children were abused, sexually assaulted, and died from disease. The goal was to make them like mainstream society. It's the whole cookware department talking about the kettle.
Some of the posts on this thread show open racist attitudes toward Jews. Such a lovely pile of hypocrisy.

Yes native americans have been extemely badly treated, but there's a big difference, you have to remember that the government who had committed (don't worry i'm not forgetting the role of other Europeans here in committing these atrocities, notably my own country before US independence) the genocide in the US against the native americans, and now there is some talk of making amends. Yes the jews suffered a holocaust, but this wasn't caused by the palestinians! So why the hell should they have to suffer for it??!!!!

"open racist attitudes toward Jews", give me an example please! I've never mentioned one nor has any one else who's been speaking up for the palestinians! Frankly i think it's racist to suggest the Jews are a race, racial anti-Semitism was the cause of Jewish suffering and the notion of them being a distinct racial group apart from the rest of society was what made the anti-Semitism of the 20th Century in europe so vicious and brutal. They are a religious group, take any group of Jews and they come from all over the place, have very different ethnic and cultural make ups, good example would be ethiopian Jews, yemeni jews, russian jews etc
But all of this suffering should mean you would realise not to brutalise another people knowing how it is to have been so criminally treated for so long yourselves! The whole equation of being disgusted with israel's occupation of the west bank and its crimes against the palestinian people is an example of anti-semitism is disgraceful! It's just being deeply concerned with human rights! Israel using the epithet anti-semite as a weapon to silence condemnation of their foreign policy is very short sighted and could have horrendous consequences i.e. legitimising anti-semitism in large parts of the world, and that deeply concerns me! I do not want to EVER see the day where Jews are treated as they were in europe before and during the second world war! Being horrendously persecuted in the past does NOT give you impugnity to treat a people who had NO part in it like refuse! They label palestinians in general as terrorists for any act of resistance (yes i do feel disgusted by bombs going off on israeli buses, but that is an act of desperation!), that is eerily similar to the Nazis calling the jews of the warsaw ghetto terrorists when they tried to defend themselves!
 

SlamminSammy

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Furthermore, why would you not extend the same sympathy towards the Palestinians as you do towards Jews and American natives? It is NOT racist the be critical of Israel and it's government or it's policies. You'd think by now that people would have wised up to the tactic of raising the racist flag every time someone criticizes the State of Israel.

Yes, Jews have been victims of racism. So have countless other groups including Palestinian Arabs. Yet in America, for the past 50 years, there is this one-sided presentation of the situation, and at the side time a cynical policy of arming all sides and doing business with all sides.

The idea that the Palestinians must accept reality and whatever the Israelis are willing to let them have may sound good in theory, but it is very naive. Why would they accept that? Who would? This is not Ireland and just because the Sinn Féin and the British government have accepted each other as evils who are not going away, doesn't mean that that model will apply here in the Mid-East. Not to diminish what the British did to the Irish going back for centuries, but what the Palestinians have experienced in the twentieth century and how they live now is 100 times worse than the situation of the Catholics of N. Ireland. I have been to both places and believe me, I'd rather live in Belfast under any condition than live in Gaza. The Palestinian people are not going to go away and forget about it.
The only reason Palestinians aren't given the same sympathy by Americans as other ethnic groups around the world that are being put through hell is because the Jewish Lobby-run US media doesn't let the average American know what Israel is doing to them on a daily basis over there. There's a reason why the rest of the world recognizes the plight of the Palestinians & that's because the news in other countries isn't as biased as ours is. I have traveled all over the world & Al Jazeera is probably the best, most unbiased news I've ever seen, yet, until the average American became aware of this from their coverage of the Egyptian protests, US media (again, run by the Jewish Lobby) labeled Al Jazeera as a terrorist-friendly network. The Palestinian people have been around since the beginning of time & they're not going anywhere anytime soon no matter how hard Israel tries to eradicate them.


Yes the jews suffered a holocaust, but this wasn't caused by the palestinians! So why the hell should they have to suffer for it??!!!!

"open racist attitudes toward Jews", give me an example please! I've never mentioned one nor has any one else who's been speaking up for the palestinians! Frankly i think it's racist to suggest the Jews are a race, racial anti-Semitism was the cause of Jewish suffering and the notion of them being a distinct racial group apart from the rest of society was what made the anti-Semitism of the 20th Century in europe so vicious and brutal. They are a religious group, take any group of Jews and they come from all over the place, have very different ethnic and cultural make ups, good example would be ethiopian Jews, yemeni jews, russian jews etc
But all of this suffering should mean you would realise not to brutalise another people knowing how it is to have been so criminally treated for so long yourselves! The whole equation of being disgusted with israel's occupation of the west bank and its crimes against the palestinian people is an example of anti-semitism is disgraceful! It's just being deeply concerned with human rights! Israel using the epithet anti-semite as a weapon to silence condemnation of their foreign policy is very short sighted and could have horrendous consequences i.e. legitimising anti-semitism in large parts of the world, and that deeply concerns me! Being horrendously persecuted in the past does NOT give you impugnity to treat a people who had NO part in it like refuse! They label palestinians in general as terrorists for any act of resistance (yes i do feel disgusted by bombs going off on israeli buses, but that is an act of desperation!), that is eerily similar to the Nazis calling the jews of the warsaw ghetto terrorists when they tried to defend themselves!

You guys are right about any time someone speaks up on behalf of Palestinians against what Israel is doing to them, Jews throw around the anti-Semite label. It's like it's their go to move to make people feel bad about even broaching the topic. The conflict is not about religion; it's about human rights, which is ironic because Israel was created as retribution for Jews for the Holocaust. You'd think that they'd be content to have a nation created for them from other people's land being handed to them & then they'd be sympathetic towards Palestinians after what they went through themselves, but it's the complete opposite. They want all of the land to themselves. It's very much like how American settlers treated Native American Indians, but at least Indians got reservations & millions from casinos, etc.
Palestinians are labeled as terrorists by the Jewish Lobby-run US media because they blow themselves up, yet Israel is the only country in the world where every citizen, male & female, have to join the army as teenagers & they patrol the illegal walls they've built on the illegally occupied terrority with US-supplied M-16 machine guns & a disgusting arrogant sense of entitlement. In the history of the world, what peaceful, democratic governments have ever built walls? China, Germany, South Africa-all either communist or racist governments! The reason so many Palestinians willingly die as martyrs is because they'd rather die on their feet on their terms, than live on their knees like the Israelis want them to. They're not allowed to possess so much as a pocket knife! That's why they have to resort to throwing stones against tanks.
 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

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At no time did I say that what was happening to natives of Palestine was okay. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of people in the USA. Yes, it is pure hypocrisy. It is typical of the west. First, the west was extremely anti-semitic, and the persecution, and extermination of Jews was extreme. Then, the west decided, oh we'll create them a homeland, and ease our own conscience. Now, they are like you don't have a right to do this. blah blah blah
It is still hypocritcal bullshit. Clean up your own shit before you tell others to clean up theres. Oooo That wouldn't be politically appealing to most people in the USA.
 

Calboner

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The only reason Palestinians aren't given the same sympathy by Americans as other ethnic groups around the world that are being put through hell is because the Jewish Lobby-run US media doesn't let the average American know what Israel is doing to them on a daily basis over there.

What evidence do you have that the news media in the US are run by "the Jewish Lobby"? And what is this "Jewish Lobby"?
 
D

deleted213967

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Oh, really? Cutting off the aid the U.S. gives them would be a pretty powerful act.


  1. Israel is (still) a true ally of the US, the only one in the region.
  2. Israel does not harbor terrorist organizations.
  3. Israel is the only democracy in the region.
  4. Israel is the only developed nation in the region.
You are correct, trying to cut them off would indeed send a powerful message to the Iranian thuggery and other friendly neighborhood regimes.
 
3

3151

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The Palestinians do not reconginze Israel as a country and their right to exist at all. The first move must be on their side to recoginze Israel's right to exist.

This is like negotiating with your ex wife about what wedding rings to buy.... you must agree to try to reconcile before discussing details.
 

ReallySmall

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  1. Israel is (still) a true ally of the US, the only one in the region.
  2. Israel does not harbor terrorist organizations.
  3. Israel is the only democracy in the region.
  4. Israel is the only developed nation in the region.
You are correct, trying to cut them off would indeed send a powerful message to the Iranian thuggery and other friendly neighborhood regimes.

A true ally in what sense though? I'm yet to see anything Israel does in return.

Obama - in what was an otherwise horrible speech - made one reasonable request of Israel. It was flatly rejected. That's not an alliance, that's a one way deal.

The other points ranged from daft to borderline racist - I'm not sure I see much of a distinction between the level of development of Israel and, say, Qatar. Ditto terrorism - Israel happily celebrates the bombing of the King David Hotel, so the blurring of lines between freedom fighter and terrorist is frequently applied when in Israel's favour.
 
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Bobgoldwae

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I read and understand the liberal viewpoint on Israel, Palestine, Obama but its the delusion that Obama is trying to do the right thing for all. Obama is an obvious Muslim, his choice of course. I wonder had this been widely known if he would ever have been elected President. Seriously doubt it and strangely enough, even the Muslims dont like him. That is one likeable thing about them.