Oh Indians...

D_Miranda_Wrights

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I really can't see the OP's use of "Oh Indians" as meaning anything other than, "Oh [typical] Indians."

I honestly can't either, but I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

You do understand that the term "Indian" is, in many quarters pejorative at best, don't you?

In many, it's considered a slur and an insult, and will get you a beat down.

ehh...I can't attest to every tribe, but I've met few people offended by the term, and definitely none who would start a fistfight over it. A lot of tribes, at least in the United States, even have "Tribe of Indians" in their official, self-chosen name. The reservation in question is my tribe's, and I've been there, and I didn't get the impression "Indian" was viewed pejoratively there.
 

gymfresh

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I've never heard anyone say "I'm Scottish-American". Odd that. :confused:

Really? I've heard it a lot. And in several of the places I've lived in the US some folks make a big deal of the Highland Games their Scottish-American heritage. Including where I live now. I rarely hear English-American, but Scottish-American? Plenty.
 

D_Miranda_Wrights

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Sorry, I missed this...

Because an Indian tribe is suing for damages.

You do realize that this is comparable to some county Board of Commissioners in Vermont suing someone, and me writing "oh white people"?

Indians -> Lakota tribe -> Reservation residents -> Reservation tribal council -> Tribal policy

Ok, got me?

Beyond that, I would really like to hear what your thoughts on this subject are beyond the massively superficial. Really, man -- 80% unemployment, comparable alcoholism, 40% of homes without running water. I know you may find the tribal council's strike of desperation here ideologically offensive. I can see why. But do you not have anything interesting to say about how we break the cycle so we don't have children falling back into alcohol and poverty before they're even old enough to drive?
 

dandelion

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I really can't see the OP's use of "Oh Indians" as meaning anything other than, "Oh [typical] Indians." This linked with the article is, I believe, an attempt to make the generalization that all Native people blame their problems on Europeans that settled here, and their descendants.
I guess invasion and conquest is simply human nature and you cant blame europeans for being human, but i cant help thinking that indians would now be much better off if America had never been invaded by other settlers armed with superior technology.

Suing businesses in Whiteclay may not work as a solution to this problem, in fact the OP may find it laughable, but this does not justify slandering an ethnic group.
I think 'Oh indians' suggests indians have done something foolish. I also immediately thought of prohibition which was a towering failure and only added an upsurge in organised crime to the problems of alcoholism. If the US tried to reintroduce prohibition now I expect it would destroy the US government because of civil rebellion. i imagine the only reason this prohibition is allowed to exist within the indian territory is because most people who want to drink simply ignore it and go into town.

How exactly would you fix the cyclical alcohol problem? Most kids there start drinking in their early teens, before their long-term decisionmaking is fully formed, because their parents do -- and because the unemployment rate is something like 80%.
I'd say that all those Indians are drinking because the only solution they have to the massive unemployment problem is alcohol. You dont solve a problem by taking away the only thing which helps it at all. I might suggest growing your own cannabis is a safer alternative. Cowboy medicine recommends bucketfulls of antidepressants instead but Im not convinced that is any better than alcohol.

Do you really think saying "the solution is individual responsibility!" helps anything here?
I dont think opposing people who take the best solution available to them is very clever, which is what the official ban is. I presume it means Indians dont even get any revenue from those alcohol sales. So now they are trying to recover the taxes they failed to collect because they didnt supply the goods their people demanded?

Are 12-year-olds raised in an area where half of homes have no indoor plumbing, with poor adult role models, going to pull themselves up by their bootstraps?
You keep saying things which might be actual real solutions. The only way to deal with irresponsible drug use is to teach responsible drug use. Id suggest Indian parents are being the best role models they can when they teach their children the use of alcohol to ameliorate their situation.

You do realize that this is comparable to some county Board of Commissioners in Vermont suing someone, and me writing "oh white people"?
Myself, Id probably say 'oh Americans'. Would this get my country invaded because of the insult?

I know you may find the tribal council's strike of desperation here ideologically offensive. I can see why. But do you not have anything interesting to say about how we break the cycle so we don't have children falling back into alcohol and poverty before they're even old enough to drive?
I'd say americans are not very civilised when it comes to helping foreigners. But putting that aside, they did cause the mess so ought to do something about it. Like providing plumbing. Jobs. A similar thing is happening right now in europe where Greece - a relatively small country - is in danger of being left to sink by the rest of europe. No one can agree how to do anything about that here either. Its not just americans.
 
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B_enzia35

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Sorry, I missed this...



You do realize that this is comparable to some county Board of Commissioners in Vermont suing someone, and me writing "oh white people"?

Indians -> Lakota tribe -> Reservation residents -> Reservation tribal council -> Tribal policy

Ok, got me?

Beyond that, I would really like to hear what your thoughts on this subject are beyond the massively superficial. Really, man -- 80% unemployment, comparable alcoholism, 40% of homes without running water. I know you may find the tribal council's strike of desperation here ideologically offensive. I can see why. But do you not have anything interesting to say about how we break the cycle so we don't have children falling back into alcohol and poverty before they're even old enough to drive?
Aren't the Native American people on reservations one of the biggest purveyors of welfare? How about we get rid of that and see what happens? If you subsidize something you get more of it.
 

B_enzia35

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enzia35, I hope you realize that the main point of what I said was not about whether banning alcohol is a viable solution, but that your generalizations and slander are both offensive and ignorant.

As for your sarcastic comments about the effectiveness of prohibition, no, it didn't get rid of alcohol, but it definitely made it harder to attain. This, I believe is the tribes goal.

Alcohol has been banned there since the early 1800's, according to the article. That helped right? Nope, they went to a town nearby and bought some there, and then smuggled it in.
 

B_enzia35

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I honestly can't either, but I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.



ehh...I can't attest to every tribe, but I've met few people offended by the term, and definitely none who would start a fistfight over it. A lot of tribes, at least in the United States, even have "Tribe of Indians" in their official, self-chosen name. The reservation in question is my tribe's, and I've been there, and I didn't get the impression "Indian" was viewed pejoratively there.

That's what I learned it as in my earlier education...
Frankly, would y'all still be giving me shit even if my title was "Oh, Native Americans"? Probably so.
 

gymfresh

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Aren't the Native American people on reservations one of the biggest purveyors of welfare?

You do understand that purveyor means provider or supplier, right?

Even though you began it, I'm not sure you understand much of anything in this discussion.
 

D_Miranda_Wrights

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Aren't the Native American people on reservations one of the biggest purveyors of welfare? How about we get rid of that and see what happens? If you subsidize something you get more of it.

What exactly do you see as happening as a result of that? Explain (on the relatively "micro" level) what you think such a policy would cause people there to do. Are alcoholics with no job prospects going to suddenly somehow become productive, functioning human beings? What about the kids? You're criticizing the Whiteclay decision for being a vapid "quick-fix" but your solution seems pretty poorly formed. It fails to address the structural problems going on here, and would have a fairly inhumane "adjustment" period.

Alcohol has been banned there since the early 1800's, according to the article. That helped right? Nope, they went to a town nearby and bought some there, and then smuggled it in.

I have serious qualms with the lawsuit too, but your argument presumes that banning alcohol in Shannon County has either a complete effect or no effect. I honestly have no idea whether it's had a significant effect or not, although I imagine it's had some. It would be hard to figure out how much.

That's what I learned it as in my earlier education...
Frankly, would y'all still be giving me shit even if my title was "Oh, Native Americans"? Probably so.

Yes, I'd be giving you shit because I don't care what term you use. It was a vacuous thread title that was somewhere between ridiculously over-generalized and racist. Your explanation for it hasn't really acquitted you.
 
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fun21

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Alcohol has been banned there since the early 1800's, according to the article. That helped right? Nope, they went to a town nearby and bought some there, and then smuggled it in.

They didn't go to a town nearby as much as a town came near for the purpose of selling the alcohol. Whiteclay has 14 people living in it on a good day, and 4 liquor stores. These stores have thrived on selling beer to people who will drink it and distribute it illegally on the reserve only since President Theodore Roosevelt removed the land Whiteclay is currently on from the reserve. Stores in Whiteclay know they are facilitating illegal activity, and for this reason I hope the reservation is successful in its legal actions.

CountryHomesofNebraska.com - City Data for Whiteclay, Nebraska
 

dandelion

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These stores have thrived on selling beer to people who will drink it and distribute it illegally on the reserve
Sounds to me like democracy in action. The people are voting with their feed. If you make laws against the will of the people they very sensibly get around them as best they can.
 

D_Miranda_Wrights

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Sounds to me like democracy in action. The people are voting with their feed. If you make laws against the will of the people they very sensibly get around them as best they can.

Not sure about democracy, but the free market sure...

Do you consider addicts to be "rational decision-makers," bar none, in terms of law and policymaking? I'm not arguing, but I like hearing people's thoughts on this issue.
 
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