Okay to panic yet?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by madame_zora, Mar 7, 2007.

  1. madame_zora

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    Mark Klein, technician for AT&T, has brought forward a story confirming that the NSA is indeed gathering information on ordinary citizens by misusing laws allowing wiretapping on suspected terrorists by installing splitters to monitor internet activities. Klein has no security clearance, and therefore is not under obligation to keep any government secrets.

    Are we getting it yet why it's not okay to give blanket priviledge to any authority? How many of these stories is it going to take before we understand that our government is not looking out for our best interest, and it's only a matter of time before we're getting ticktes for minor online offenses, and grandmas will get busted in on by the FBI for visiting "suspicious websites". Look out folks, while you're laughing at the lefties, your government is building a file, on you too.



    Klein says he collected 120 pages of technical documents left around the San Francisco office showing how the NSA was installing "splitters" that would allow it to copy both domestic and international Internet traffic moving through AT&T connections with 16 other trunk lines.
    "It's gobs and gobs of information going across the Internet," Klein says.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/images/att_secret_room_nr.jpg
    President Bush has acknowledged he authorized the NSA to intercept the communications of people with known links to terrorist organizations "into or out of the United States," but that "we're not trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans."

    .......


    The NSA says it will not confirm or deny the existence or the purpose of the "secret rooms," but in a filing in the court case against AT&T, Negroponte formally invoked the "state secrets privilege," claiming the lawsuit and the information from Klein and others could "cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States."
    Klein says what he knows won't help terrorists.
    "The only people that are being kept in the dark is the American people who are being misled and not realizing, not being told that their private information, that their liberties are being destroyed and tramped on," he said.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/03/whistleblower_h.html
     
  2. davidjh7

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    I wish I could say I'm shocked and surprised--I'm not. Unfortunately, this policy and action by the NSA has been going on for a LONG LONG time---it began by random wiretapping of phone conversations in the Reagan years, and random tapping of personal internet traffic has been going on since the early 90's--long before most people were even ON the internet. Blatantly illegal, the Patriot act only gave legal legitimacy to actions which had already been going on for years. Call conspiricy if you want, but there has been written evidence come up time to time that shows this is indemic in our government. The government is NOT your friend, and they are NOT here to help you--they are here to keep you in line, and protect and expand their personal power and wealth, and will do ANYTHING to do so. Anybody in the US who DOESN'T fear and distrust ALL their government says and does, has never known anybody at any power level in goevernment. I wish I could wear rose colored glasses, but I have personal inside knowledge about some of the goings on. And no, I am not going to reveal the facts---I'm not suicidal---and so you can call me whatever you want, naysay, call bullshit, whatever. But protect yourself the best you can, which anymore, believe me, isn;t much.....
     
  3. Spamalot

    Spamalot New Member

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    We proletarians don't honestly know exactly what the government is capable of. From an american standpoint, I wouldn't be worrying about the NSA when we've got things like the DIA transcending any and all boundaries. Nationalism is being screwed over daily.

    Figure out how to make anarcho-capitalism your friend, and you'll probably avoid the hit list.

    Don't worry about freedom on the internet while your pre-existing constitutional freedoms are being ripped to pieces already: Military Commissions Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. madame_zora

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    While I do realise how annoying it is to wade through the mountains of "evidence" conspircy theorists present, it's going to be a sad day for everyone when we eventually can't ignore any longer what a monster our government has become.
     
  5. Spamalot

    Spamalot New Member

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    Conspiracy theories are generated most often due to governments omitting facts or simply not admitting simple things.

    Perfect example would be 9/11. Firefighters who were trapped in one of the towers were trying not to be shot when the CIA's armory went off during the collapse. The CIA even admitted that they had an armory in one of the towers, but they only said it once and it was quickly removed from the public eye. All these conspiracy theories like Loose Change stem from lack of valid information coming from the government. Even when the government is being legitimate for a change, they still feel the need to lie. This unnecessary paranoia is the first and foremost reason why so many people develop such a cynical view of government.
     
  6. madame_zora

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    Well, our government lies so frequently that we can't tell when they are or are not lying without a Spidey decoder ring.

    ABC News: Libby Found Guilty On Four Counts

    So Scooter Libby finally got convicted of four out of five counts, making him the highest ranking felon in the system, so far. Of course, there's already talk of a presidential pardon, but bush and cheney themselves are going to be answerable for their stooge.

    Of course, now that bush can replace judges with little to no oversight, I expect that will be his course of action. Naturally, the appeal has already been filed, so what will probably happen is that his pardon will happen during that process, and elicit very little notice.

    It's safer to ignore anything bush or cheney says directly, and look for evidence elsewhere.
     
  7. Spamalot

    Spamalot New Member

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    People get caught up in hating Bush without realizing that he's a puppet.
     
  8. Lex

    Lex
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    In Your Darkest Thoughts and Dreams
    Sadly, I have always felt that my privacy is an illusion.
     
  9. madame_zora

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    Um, no. In my case, I can just read, and I pay attention to the rather incredible amount of actions he's taken since he entered office. Nice try.

    He's a pretty direct liar for an innocent puppet.
     
  10. madame_zora

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    Yes, that's because I'm peeking in your bedroom window.
     
  11. Lex

    Lex
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    I am SO gonna call you RIGHT NOW!!
     
  12. DC_DEEP

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    Spamalot and Zora, you are both correct about bush, believe it or not.

    He is pretty much a puppet, but the guys holding the strings are evil, not stupid. When bush comes up with something on his own, and it serves their own puposes, they loosen the strings and let him go ahead with it.

    bush apparently has no concept of The Constitution and The Code of Federal Law being binding even upon the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. In his own little world (wonder what color THAT sky is...) he thinks it's ok to disregard laws when he thinks it will favor him in a power grab, or when it will enrich the coffers of his good ole boys. His puppeteers know it's not ok, but they know they can get away with it if they play georgie just right. But regardless of whether it's his own thoughts, or something that was whispered in his ear, it still goes through him, it still makes it into executive orders, it still circumvents due process and chain of command.

    It's sad.
     
  13. Heather LouAnna

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    Holy fuck. I didn't have internet for two weeks once I moved to my new apartment. I just got it again last night through at&t. They use this "2wire" shit. It's rather annoying. If you're internet comes through the phone line, you have to hook up these splitters at each phone jack so the signal wont scramble the phone line. I'm a techie and I was seriously confused. I mean..it makes sense to me, but it's just fucking bizarre and seems really...stupid...lol

    Not that I own a phone other than my cell...but yeah...........anywho. :tongue:
     
  14. DC_DEEP

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    Heather, I haven't researched it yet, but I'm guessing that the splitters mentioned in the article are different than your home DSL signal splitters. Signal splitters are necessary for DSL or cable modems, as the phone or television signals are carried on the same wire as the internet signals. I don't think those home splitters can send signals back, per se.

    In the portion that Madame Z posted, Klein mentioned something about the signal splitters in conjunction with the trunk lines. That would allow the NSA to "siphon off" duplicate signals for monitoring. All the DSL internet traffic has to go through those trunk lines, and diverting the signal there is easier and more cost-effective than trying to monitor individual computers.
     
  15. Full_Phil

    Full_Phil New Member

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    Yes, yes and yes!
     
  16. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    Oh, for a minute there I thought you were carrying on about something serious ... like, say, Executive Order 9066. That's the one which authorized the actual imprisonment (rather than just wishful thinking) of well over 70 thousand American citizens. Being an EO it was not subject to legislative review or approval. It was subject to judicial review, and, somewhat ominously, was found to be constitutional in 1944. It remained the Law of the Land until rescinded 32 years later. So it's a bit late to panic about that one.

    Our Documents - Transcript of Executive Order 9066: Resulting in the Relocation of Japanese (1942)

    The 2006 Military Commissions Act is at least a real law, which passed through the Congressional obscurathon in the normal manner. However, there doesn't seem to be anything preventing any president from issuing an Executive Order similar to 9066 today or in the future. That might be worth worrying about.

    To have a reasonable grasp of the issues - a step often omitted - it never hurts to actually read the Geneva conventions. (Warning - über-boring; I don't personally know anyone else who has lasted through the whole thing.) This site isn't bad -

    Reference Guide to the Geneva Conventions

    The surprisingly large number of habeas cases brought by German internees and POWs during WW2 are certainly relevant to an understanding of the issue. Fortunately the courts had no great difficulty in finding that habeas corpus did not preclude the US from detaining prisoners of war or select foreign nationals. The routine detention of foreign nationals - not POWs - has fallen out of favor in recent decades, which has to count as progress; that change in fashion prevented thousands of British and Argentine businessmen from being imprisoned during the Falklands unpleasantness. Unfortunately the best online references to the German lawsuits seem to be the ones at JSTOR, and those aren't freebies. If anyone finds an authoritative (that is, not Daily KOS) online source of real information - that is, discussion of actual court cases - I would be eternally grateful.
     
  17. DC_DEEP

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    BD, this applies to so many things, especially the so-called "Patriot Act." Governments know that this kind of stuff is über-boring, that's part of the reason they structure them the way they do. And they also know that if it is boring enough, only a micro-fraction of the population at large will read it. And they know that if almost no one reads it, they can use it however they choose. I have had some major battles with banks over what the tellers, then managers, would tell me were "requirements under the new Patriot Act." When I held my ground, oops, well, it isn't a law, it's our policy. When I still held my ground, they admit their policy is on shaky legal ground, and give in.

    To our general readership: don't really believe a lot of what you are told about various laws. To find out what a law actually allows and what it actually prohibits, you will pretty much have to read it for yourself. Most of what you "have heard or have been told" regarding any particular law, is either exaggerated, or twisted, or an outright lie.
     
  18. madame_zora

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    BD, I'm not sure I understand your point. Yes, the Geneva Convention would be as boring a read as the Patriot Act, and I'm certainly not going to read either in their entirety, are you comparing or contrasting the two?

    For me, the lesson is simple- power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Not very original, but easy to understand. It's the fact that bush wants this kind of absolute power that is at the root of the problem. The fact that he's getting it is an indication of exactly how ignorant and easily herded we have become as a nation. Nobody breaks laws to hide information that isn't dangerous to begin with, that's just silly. If there's nothing "sinister" going on, there's no need to cover one's tracks. When a particular person has said repeatedly that they were not aware of something, only later to be forced to admit that they DID know all about it from the beginning, one has to ask why this profuse liar is allowed to remain in his position. He clearly has no compunction about lying through his teeth, repeatedly, and for years. (I never saw any brief about Al-quaeda attacking us with planes- whoops)
     
  19. Hatched69

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    You're OK. The "splitters" you are using are actually filters to keep the DSL hi-frequency signal from bleeding into phone conversations. They're not a wiretapping device of any kind. If you don't have a land-line, you don't even need them. Just FYI. :smile:
     
  20. dannymawg

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    Of interest is this comment, from the ones on the ABC News site/article:

    AT&T is still really SBC, the largest owner of what were previously ILECs [Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier] - all SBC did was pay $16B for one of the most globally recognized brand names ever, and absorbed 40,000 of their management employees. And they now have control of not only local, old school 2-wire or twisted pair networks - they control the backbone of our nations' network infrastructure.

    Having gone from one phone company period, to AT&T for long distance and your local ILEC [Incumbent Local Exchange Carrier - in my area would have been Illinois Bell, then Ameritech, then SBC], then to the environment of "competition" in the 80s with the first telecom divestiture - things haven't come around "full circle" as I've heard people say in casual conversation. This is starting to look deliberate.

    However - from the same comments:

    I've been privy to nationwide network traffic numbers and I would have to concur.

    But just as storage size vs. price has allowed us to buy a 100 gig HD for our laptops at stupid low prices, the same (or better?) tech is available to the NSA. So it's only a matter of time vs. the cost of Uncle Sam not knowing what the average Joe is doing on the net, when it could be accessed easily.
     
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