I thought the debate tonight was about the old 20th c. "America" vs the new 21st c. "America."
Obama won on the latter. He is the face of this new country. Do you agee? Much as all people honor in the US and abroad and respect the oldi?
frankly if the choice is between "old" usa and "new" usa, i'll take the old.
I am only 37, but i will take my parents and grandparents generations, who fought two world wars to help save the free world. i will take the old folks that made it through the depression when they were 8 years old by getting a paper route and learning the value of hard work, saving and earning, as opposed to kids who when they were 8 years old made it through the dot com boom, learned the value of wasting their time playing stupid video games, and now waste their time texting and saying "like" every three seconds.
I will take the african americans who fought for their civil rights and for their respect, who joined the army to fight for a country that denied them their rights, yet still fought...who fought for equality so their kids could one day go to school and have the same rights white children did, as opposed to the african american kids today who drop out in record numbers and choose to speak ebonics as a first language, guaranteeing they will NEVER get a high paying white collar job and feeding into the common stereotype so often seen today.
I'll take the older americans who knew that you do not get something for nothing, you have to earn it, as opposed to the new generation, who seem to think you deserve everything BEFORE you earn it.
this is a spoiled, soft, new generation, that has had to deal with none of the hardships that the previous generations did yet expects things merely because they live in america...
I don't care for McCain at all, but the whole "Obama represents new america" may just be right...the new, get something for nothing, whining about our place in the world, demanding that the successful be penalized, failing schools because it is not fair to demand that kids actually study hard or even show up for school, america...where everyone gets something on someone else's dime, where the rest of the world's view of us is more important than our view of ourselves, and all the rest of the nonsense that states somehow people who are not citizens deserve healthcare paid for by citizens etc. etc....
it is a bullshit vision of america. it is as bullshit a vision as those the far rigth with their absurdist views about religion, and laissez-faire, sink or swim society.
both these visions of "Old" and "New" america, are totally wrong, because they are both wrapped up in their own selfish visions, incapable of seeing anything outside their own shells...
the Democrats can't seem to acknowledge the successes of the past, and the Republicans can't seem to stop living in them.
they are both a joke, and neither truly represents america.
Obama is just the same tired old liberal rhetoric, in shiny new wrapping
McCain is just the same tired old conservative rhetoric, in bland new wrapping
i can't believe that people who consider themselves to be smart, look at voting for Obama as "change" or McCain as "experience".
they both suck and neither has anything new to say.
they both represent status quo american failures...nothing old or new.
simply broken, backwards, corrupt machine politics, business as usual.
shocker.
While you make some valid observations here I never saw it as a choice between "old America" and "new America" and I certainly never got the feeling that this was the choices being offered, or at least not in Obama's case.
Now before you think this is going to be another Obama can do no wrong spiel, I'd ask you to consider the man's ideology from the very start, as set forth in his own book.
He himself said there was too much politics involved in decision making, too much partisanship. He spoke (and wrote) of a need for politicians to put the needs of the country ahead of party politics and partisan interests. That concept alone struck an appeal with me.
Now maybe by your apparent defiinition of the "new America" people are all about getting something for nothing, that older black Americans rate more highly with you because they fought on behalf of a country that didn't even offer them equality of treatment back home, while the younger generation "choose" to speak non-standard English (a rather broad brush you "paint" us with but with some truths)...
But even that doesn't translate to me (nor apparently to many) in quite the analogy you draw for "new America". While there are those who may aptly fit you description of new America there is another picture as well and I think that picture is one based on HOPE for a better future, and not based on the despair, pessimism, and misguided values you seem to suggest.
Your analogy of the successful being penalized, of schools encouraging failure, and of everyone expecting something for nothing is imo not an accurate reflection of America at all, only of some of the problems we face, problems that have existed under Republican leadership and Democratic leadership alike.
But still some hope. Hope for an America where yes, how the world feels about us is just as good as how we feel about ourselves. Hope for an America where healthcare is affordable not because someone is trying to "get something for nothing" but because it is the right thing to do. Hope for an America where the successful are not penalized, but neither are we.
Maybe Obama is not the perfect candidate that can offer or fix all of the above. Certainly his predecessors haven't. I'd suggest that there is no such thing as the perfect candidate. Only just the better choice.
Maybe some of us embrace Obama because he comes closer to our vision of a kinder, better America. Closer to our vision of HOPE.
It is very difficult for me to consider his ideology, when it is already laid out in his voting record, in his choices of advisors on all topics (economic, foreign policy, energy etc.) i do not see an ideology that is really any different than old line, far left ideology, dressed up again in a different package....the advisors are holdovers from the Carter years, the Clinton years etc. etc....there is nothing new going on here...despite what his book may say...While you make some valid observations here I never saw it as a choice between "old America" and "new America" and I certainly never got the feeling that this was the choices being offered, or at least not in Obama's case.
Now before you think this is going to be another Obama can do no wrong spiel, I'd ask you to consider the man's ideology from the very start, as set forth in his own book.
i don;t trust the far left any more than i trust the far right, no matter how it is repackaged, whether it is a hockey mom from Alaska, or a charismatic community organizer from Chicago...it is machine politics from the far wings of each party.
If Obama's ideology was truly ground-breaking, He'd be an independent...but he is not. He is a liberal democrat.
fair enough...but that is hardly a new theme...i do not know how old you are (not as an insult, but merely as trying to gain a reference point to how many election cycles you have gone through in your lifetime). I myself am 37...i have been hearing this same spiel from every politician since i can recall being old enough to pay attention (1984 election)...they say it, but they do not do it.He himself said there was too much politics involved in decision making, too much partisanship. He spoke (and wrote) of a need for politicians to put the needs of the country ahead of party politics and partisan interests. That concept alone struck an appeal with me.
If you go into politics expecting partisanship not factor into decisions, i would say he is either
A.) using the book to pontificate flowery wonderful ideas that unfortunately cannot be achieved.
B.) Seriously ignorant of the nature of partisanship, on both sides of the aisle
C.) Clinically insane
D.) stupid
I do not think he is an insane or stupid man, which eliminates B,C,D as choices...I am left only with A. The example of modern leadership campaigning...offering high minded ideals with no real way of getting there.
Nothing wrong with the "looking to the distant horizon for a better way" play on the heartstrings, but face it, if you want a better way, voting for the republicans, or the democrats, are certainly not it.
I know you are not saying it this way, but i was referring to both older whites and older blacks as being far more reliable and preferable, then both younger whites and younger blacks.Now maybe by your apparent defiinition of the "new America" people are all about getting something for nothing, that older black Americans rate more highly with you because they fought on behalf of a country that didn't even offer them equality of treatment back home, while the younger generation "choose" to speak non-standard English (a rather broad brush you "paint" us with but with some truths)...
thus my saying- "i will take the old folks that made it through the depression when they were 8 years old by getting a paper route and learning the value of hard work, saving and earning, as opposed to kids who when they were 8 years old made it through the dot com boom, learned the value of wasting their time playing stupid video games, and now waste their time texting and saying "like" every three seconds." (in relation to older whites vs. younger whites, who sit around saying "like" every 3 seconds and watching MTV, Britney Speares and PAris Hilton etc.) I apologize if i was not specific that these were the dumber segment of white kids (alot but not all) compared to older whites, and the following was related to older blacks vs. younger blacks
I will take the african americans who fought for their civil rights and for their respect, who joined the army to fight for a country that denied them their rights, yet still fought...who fought for equality so their kids could one day go to school and have the same rights white children did, as opposed to the african american kids today who drop out in record numbers and choose to speak ebonics as a first language, guaranteeing they will NEVER get a high paying white collar job and feeding into the common stereotype so often seen today.
I apologize for not being clearer, i was referring not to all black children, but to the ones who drop out of school, refer to hard working young black kids as "acting white", who do not realize the privilege that their elders fought for to get them into school yet for them to behave so badly and take that right for granted...(i have just watched to infuriating HBO docs, Little Rock Central, and Hard Times at Douglas High which were both sad, upsetting, and infuriating to me about the state of inner-city education)
You know as well as i do (I am jewish) that minorities sometimes in fact have to work harder than the majority , to "prove" something, and considering that young african americans are already in very serious trouble as a demographic, dropping out of school at a higher rate, groing up in single-parent homes at a higher rate are already providing a serious impediment to success...when you factor in that these kids think speaking ebonics is a substitute for proper english, they are just digging their whole deeper...who can we get these kids white-collar jobs if they cannot even speak english?
you and i both know the african american community is facing a much different crisis than the white community. BOth communities have their problems, but suburban white kids can get away with being silly, ignorant and lackadisacal, fairly or not, to a much higher degree than a young african american in a failing inner city school, because, as i mentioned of the stereotypes that are already sitting on top of young African Americans, that don't sit on white kids of the same age...
You and i both know that a young african american male who can barely speak his first language correctly has little to no chance of acquiring a good white collar job compared to a young white male who says like a few too many times...the stigma and stereotype (not to mention the reality, that all the most successful african americans in law, medicine, science, civil rights, academia all speak perfect english, just like Martin Luther King, MAlcolm X, Barack Obama etc. ettc. all do) is simply too great.
but i digress. just wanted to make that point that i was comparing the youth of both races...my apologies for not making it more clear...
race is an interesting topic i am happy to discuss at length if you wish in another thread regarding my thoughts on the crisis facing young AA's in education etc...that is another thread altogether though
I do not really know what your vision is of NEw America is, really (nor Obama's). My vision of a "new america", is a country that goes into the future not afraid of trying radical new ideas in energy, health care, transportation, education, conservation, etc. where the soft current generation applies the intelligence and work ethic of previous generations to current problems, instead of waiting for them to be solved by an incompetent government (made up of BOTH parties, neither of which as the upper hand in incompetence and backwards thought, yet constantly fight for it)But even that doesn't translate to me (nor apparently to many) in quite the analogy you draw for "new America".
There is nothing wrong with that America...i would love to find that America...I am the most optimistic, energetic, passionate value oreinted american there is...precisely because i do not buy into the fact like you and others have, that the way to achieve that new america and HOPE for a better future is through either of the two corrupt, stagnant, incompetent and power-drunk republican and democratic parties, who repackage the same thing over and over againg and intoxicate the masses with it.While there are those who may aptly fit you description of new America there is another picture as well and I think that picture is one based on HOPE for a better future, and not based on the despair, pessimism, and misguided values you seem to suggest.
you seem like a rather intelligent person...and yet you, and many others are intoxicated by this man who is a very good speaker, is charismatic, (i guess...doesn't do anything for me) yet offers nothing substantively new that has not been offered in countless ways before by the democratic party, who is, like the republican party, hardly a bastion of new, revolutionary ideas and daring futures.
You used an interesting word...HOPE...it is a wonderful word...Obama has used it...Clinton used it (the man from "Hope") Carter used it (he ran as a EWashington outsider as well, just like Obama,) but none of them offered "Hope", they simply offered the democratic party platform, to people who need those things on offer...that is not hope or something new...that is politics and promises...nothing different than what the republicans do.
Neither party offers true hope...because true hope does not exist under the way the current system operates.
well, it is true...the successful are penalized to a degree with brutal taxation, estate taxes, class warfare targeting etc...I am all for progressive taxation, but i assure you, if you look at my tax bill and had to pay it, you would not so much progressive about it...it is purely punitive. (i have discussed estate tax elsewwhere on this board don't get me started :wink: )Your analogy of the successful being penalized,
I am not saying schools are encouraging failure, but there is only so much a school or a teacher can do, if a child does not show up for school, or does not work hard enough, or does not care. frankly, it is the home environment that encourages more failure IMO, but then the schools are blamed for the kids not learning...free education is a privilege of being an American.... (or european or asian or other modern coutnries) to not take advantage of it is disgracefulof schools encouraging failure,
I do nto believe everyone expects something for nothing...but there is a healthy portion of the population who does...and they need to realize, that for whatever many faults America has, the safety nets, however imperfect here, are something that hundreds of millions, and dare i say, billions of less fortunate folks around the world would die for, while most here take for granted that they get free schooling, housing assistance, food assistance, unemployment insurance, medical coverage, all in some degree, which are far from pe4rfect and not always working properly, but let's face it, i hate to use this analogy, but if you do not want your spot in america because you are unhappy, or dissatisfied, there are 10 folks who are dying to get in for your ciitizenship if you don't want it and would gladly trade their citizenship, in say, Somalia, for American citizenship...(simplistic yes, but a fact nonetheless)and of everyone expecting something for nothing is imo not an accurate reflection of America at all, only of some of the problems we face, problems that have existed under Republican leadership and Democratic leadership alike.
It is lovely language, Hope...i could not agree more...but if htat is what you want, why vote for a democrat or a republican for that matter? Neither offers it...they offer the status quo, and nothing more...not true hope.That is a very different thing entirely...hope comes from the premise that something better looms just over yonder...and i believe it does as well...but i am sorry to say, hope does not rest in the democratic party, and not in the republican party either....But still some hope. Hope for an America where yes, how the world feels about us is just as good as how we feel about ourselves.
I would agree...but you will not find affordable healthcare in either the Republican or Democratic parties. Simple fact.Hope for an America where healthcare is affordable not because someone is trying to "get something for nothing" but because it is the right thing to do.
I would agree with that...but that is not what in fact happens...and Obama does not believe that either.Hope for an America where the successful are not penalized, but neither are we.
That is the point...he is not the better choice. Neither is McCain. the better choice is to not vote for the people who have been destroying this country for the past centuryMaybe Obama is not the perfect candidate that can offer or fix all of the above. Certainly his predecessors haven't. I'd suggest that there is no such thing as the perfect candidate. Only just the better choice.
Maybe so, but if you want a better, kinder america, maybe you should not vote for one of the two parties that embrace the notion of a nasty, partisan, backwards, corrupt, dogmatic and constant war between two very imperfect ideologies, that does nothing to serve the interests of this country, but merely their own selfish dogmas of partisan politics and dust-covered, ineffective solutions.Maybe some of us embrace Obama because he comes closer to our vision of a kinder, better America. Closer to our vision of HOPE.
Like, I'm so totally writing in "Flashy for Prez" this year.
Great post, man.
Long term associations with the likes of Rev. Wright, Fr. Pfleger, and William Ayers, eh? No, wait... that's another 'mainstream' candidate....i am far too radical for the average american though :wink:
Long term associations with the likes of Rev. Wright, Fr. Pfleger, and William Ayers, eh? No, wait... that's another 'mainstream' candidate....![]()
I'd just like to point out that I noticed in the debate that Obama seemed a little obsessed with his opinion that the decision to go to Iraq was a bad one. I'm not sure if he wanted to re-debate that issue or if his policy was to build a time machine to go back in time, but either way, I think McCain showed who was living in the past when he challenge him on it. While Obama wants to relive his glory days of saying that he was opposed to the Iraq war in 2003, we'll elect McCain to actually DEAL with the facts as they are right now.
Fair enough... wasn't trying to draw you in... :wink:i am not touching that one...
i like to maintain a fairly balanced quota of disgust and dislike for both democrats and republicans alike
I am an equal opportunity loather of politicians
Now that might cause a bit of angst for your campaign if it goes public. Just don't include face and cum in the same pic and you'll be fine... :biggrin1:well, strate, my friend...i would just like to say that i was busy attempting work on my new cumshot compilation...which was infinitely more stimulating than watching the debate i am sure. :biggrin1:
Well we all have our priorities, lol. While new porn is always welcome from you, I might not need it when Palin is on next week!well, strate, my friend...i would just like to say that i was busy attempting work on my new cumshot compilation...which was infinitely more stimulating than watching the debate i am sure. :biggrin1:
Hot chicks & cumshots > Obama & McCain arguing over the same crap