Old vs New USA

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ledroit, Sep 26, 2008.

  1. ledroit

    ledroit New Member

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    I thought the debate tonight was about the old 20th c. "America" vs the new 21st c. "America."

    Obama won on the latter. He is the face of this new country. Do you agee? Much as all people honor in the US and abroad and respect the oldi?
     
  2. unabear09

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    Agree with you 100% Obama represents the new, progressive United State, while McCain represents the old way of doing things. I feel he represented many of the mistakes of the 20th c. US. He made some very good and vaild points, but to me seemed so out of touch with the America of today
     
  3. Ethyl

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    Obama was the one to note the change in how we are perceived by the rest of the world. Our future decisions and actions will determine if that view will continue to fall or if we can surprise everyone. I think McCain gets that too but i'm not convinced it's high on his list of priorities.
     
  4. D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

    D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead Account Disabled

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    Yeah, the difference is sure clear, huh?

    I watched the debate, and I'm not sure that either of them did a really great job or a really horrible job, for that matter.

    But just in terms of the difference between the world view and what they represent ... man, what a difference.
     
  5. D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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    Yeah the greatest nation has died. start learning spanish and trade in your car for a bicycle.
     
  6. Flashy

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    frankly if the choice is between "old" usa and "new" usa, i'll take the old.

    I am only 37, but i will take my parents and grandparents generations, who fought two world wars to help save the free world. i will take the old folks that made it through the depression when they were 8 years old by getting a paper route and learning the value of hard work, saving and earning, as opposed to kids who when they were 8 years old made it through the dot com boom, learned the value of wasting their time playing stupid video games, and now waste their time texting and saying "like" every three seconds.

    I will take the african americans who fought for their civil rights and for their respect, who joined the army to fight for a country that denied them their rights, yet still fought...who fought for equality so their kids could one day go to school and have the same rights white children did, as opposed to the african american kids today who drop out in record numbers and choose to speak ebonics as a first language, guaranteeing they will NEVER get a high paying white collar job and feeding into the common stereotype so often seen today.

    I'll take the older americans who knew that you do not get something for nothing, you have to earn it, as opposed to the new generation, who seem to think you deserve everything BEFORE you earn it.

    this is a spoiled, soft, new generation, that has had to deal with none of the hardships that the previous generations did yet expects things merely because they live in america...

    I don't care for McCain at all, but the whole "Obama represents new america" may just be right...the new, get something for nothing, whining about our place in the world, demanding that the successful be penalized, failing schools because it is not fair to demand that kids actually study hard or even show up for school, america...where everyone gets something on someone else's dime, where the rest of the world's view of us is more important than our view of ourselves, and all the rest of the nonsense that states somehow people who are not citizens deserve healthcare paid for by citizens etc. etc....

    it is a bullshit vision of america. it is as bullshit a vision as those the far rigth with their absurdist views about religion, and laissez-faire, sink or swim society.


    both these visions of "Old" and "New" america, are totally wrong, because they are both wrapped up in their own selfish visions, incapable of seeing anything outside their own shells...

    the Democrats can't seem to acknowledge the successes of the past, and the Republicans can't seem to stop living in them.

    they are both a joke, and neither truly represents america.

    Obama is just the same tired old liberal rhetoric, in shiny new wrapping
    McCain is just the same tired old conservative rhetoric, in bland new wrapping


    i can't believe that people who consider themselves to be smart, look at voting for Obama as "change" or McCain as "experience".

    they both suck and neither has anything new to say.

    they both represent status quo american failures...nothing old or new.

    simply broken, backwards, corrupt machine politics, business as usual.

    shocker.
     
  7. VeeP

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    Like, I'm so totally writing in "Flashy for Prez" this year.

    Great post, man.
     
  8. b.c.

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    While you make some valid observations here I never saw it as a choice between "old America" and "new America" and I certainly never got the feeling that this was the choices being offered, or at least not in Obama's case.

    Now before you think this is going to be another Obama can do no wrong spiel, I'd ask you to consider the man's ideology from the very start, as set forth in his own book.

    He himself said there was too much politics involved in decision making, too much partisanship. He spoke (and wrote) of a need for politicians to put the needs of the country ahead of party politics and partisan interests. That concept alone struck an appeal with me.

    Now maybe by your apparent defiinition of the "new America" people are all about getting something for nothing, that older black Americans rate more highly with you because they fought on behalf of a country that didn't even offer them equality of treatment back home, while the younger generation "choose" to speak non-standard English (a rather broad brush you "paint" us with but with some truths)...

    But even that doesn't translate to me (nor apparently to many) in quite the analogy you draw for "new America". While there are those who may aptly fit your description of new America, there is another picture as well. And I think that picture is of one based on HOPE for a better future, and not based on the despair, pessimism, and misguided values you seem to suggest.

    Your analogy of the successful being penalized, of schools encouraging failure, and of everyone expecting something for nothing is imo not an accurate reflection of America at all, only of some of the problems we face, problems that have existed under Republican leadership and Democratic leadership alike.

    But still some hope. Hope for an America where yes, how the world feels about us is just as good as how we feel about ourselves. Hope for an America where healthcare is affordable not because someone is trying to "get something for nothing" but because it is the right thing to do. Hope for an America where the successful are not penalized, but neither are we.

    Maybe Obama is not the perfect candidate that can offer or fix all of the above. Certainly his predecessors haven't. I'd suggest that there is no such thing as the perfect candidate. Only just the better choice.

    Maybe some of us embrace Obama because he comes closer to our vision of a kinder, better America. Closer to our vision of HOPE.
     
    #8 b.c., Sep 27, 2008
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2008
  9. unabear09

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    I don't think I could have said it any better b.c. When I say I see Obama as representing the 'new' America, I mean a progressive America. McCain doesn't really present any hope, happiness, or warmth.

    Now, I whole heartedly agree with flashy on most of his arguements. I hope that one day my generation and the generations following my own can be 1/2 as great as the 'Greatest' generation. While I will say the title given to this generation is a accurate and much deserving title, I will say that their children are what started the majority of the mess we're in now. I'm talking about the baby boomers, and the children of the baby boomers.

    The baby boomers were one of the best things that happened to this country. They demanded change and thru protests, marches, demonstrations and so forth, they obtained these changes and helped to make our country even better for the generations to come. However, they did not instill their values or their parents values into their children. Their children (I guess these would be the Gen X'ers) grew up and learned to be complacient, to be greedy, to think of themselves only, and so on.

    Now here we are in the 21st century, and the people that helped to make this country great, and stood up and protested what they felt was unfair and unjust, have completely lost their spines. They have made their money, lived nice lives, raised children, and so on, and have completely lost what made them great. They now line up with the rest of society, and don't question authority. They do as they are told for fear of rocking the boat.

    Now, the Gen X'ers are coming into power, and they are doing the same as the now aging baby boomers. They are go with the flow type of people.

    What I am getting at I suppose is that Americans have lost their spines and balls. In the 60's and 70's, if people were treated unfairly or unjustly, they got up and they fought for their rights.

    This thing of gas being as high as it is, and no real legitimate explanation for the people in charge.....well 40 or 50 years ago (when the baby boomers were in their teens and twenties) that would not fly. They would boycott the gas companies until prices went down. Same goes with the skyrocketing cost of food, the lack of cost of living pay adjustments, and so forth. We've become a nation of complacent people with out the back bone to stand up to authority and tell them.....'NO MORE.'

    People, if we want better things for ourselves, not just material things, good paying jobs, healthcare, education, etc. we have to stand up and make our voices be heard.

    Sometimes we have to sacrifice, but my question is, does anyone know the defination of sacrifice any more?

    Is Obama the perfect candidate? NO Is Obama going to succeed at everything he tries? NO Unfortuntately, there is no better candidate out there who can get this country back on the right track, but Obama gives us hope.

    People the future of our country is grim at this point, to put it lightly. Right now, we need someone, like FDR, who can bring hope back into our country, so we as citizens can suck it up, tighten our belts, and work hard to bring this country back to the way it was, and take it to new horizons...to be bigger and better than it ever has been.

    With McCain, it feels like more of the same. More of the same arguments, plans, and so on. I greatly admire the man, and praise him for all of his accomplishments in the past, but I just don't see him having the presence of mind and strength of character to turn things back around.

    Please excuse my rant. If it doesn't make a whole lot of sense (which is highly possible, as its late and I'm terribly tired), I apoligize. I'll hop down off my soapbox now
     
  10. Flashy

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  11. Flashy

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    Not every rich or successful person is a wall street shark, a predatory lender, a cruel callous slumlord etc...much of my family and friends all work in the Stock market...most are some of the most wonderful caring people you will meet, who work hard, are successfull, pay their taxes, donate to charity, adore their kids and don't rip anyone off...it is always a bit difficult when i hear over and over how bad the rich are over and over...(not saying you say this, but there certainly is a promotion of class warfare by certain political elements for their benefit)

    I am not saying schools are encouraging failure, but there is only so much a school or a teacher can do, if a child does not show up for school, or does not work hard enough, or does not care. frankly, it is the home environment that encourages more failure IMO, but then the schools are blamed for the kids not learning...free education is a privilege of being an American.... (or european or asian or other modern coutnries) to not take advantage of it is disgraceful


    I do nto believe everyone expects something for nothing...but there is a healthy portion of the population who does...and they need to realize, that for whatever many faults America has, the safety nets, however imperfect here, are something that hundreds of millions, and dare i say, billions of less fortunate folks around the world would die for, while most here take for granted that they get free schooling, housing assistance, food assistance, unemployment insurance, medical coverage, all in some degree, which are far from pe4rfect and not always working properly, but let's face it, i hate to use this analogy, but if you do not want your spot in america because you are unhappy, or dissatisfied, there are 10 folks who are dying to get in for your ciitizenship if you don't want it and would gladly trade their citizenship, in say, Somalia, for American citizenship...(simplistic yes, but a fact nonetheless)

    and yes, those problems exist under both republican and democratic leadership, (which it is still baffling why anyone actually votes for these two corrupt machines anyway)



    It is lovely language, Hope...i could not agree more...but if htat is what you want, why vote for a democrat or a republican for that matter? Neither offers it...they offer the status quo, and nothing more...not true hope.That is a very different thing entirely...hope comes from the premise that something better looms just over yonder...and i believe it does as well...but i am sorry to say, hope does not rest in the democratic party, and not in the republican party either....

    if you want hope to fix what is broken, then why turn to the same people that seemly break things over and over again?


    I would agree...but you will not find affordable healthcare in either the Republican or Democratic parties. Simple fact.

    I am a social liberal and an economic conservative, as i have said before. I totally support universal healthcare, for the uninsured. (there are 42 million uninsured folks...14 million of those are not american citizens, and as such, american citizens should not being for their healthcare when 28 million americans are uninsured)

    but how do you pay for that, without them getting literally "something for nothing"? Neither party offers a solution.

    I have no problem with universal healthcare, as long as two things happen

    1. It does not affect *MY* rights to my own private, high quality health plan that i choose to participate in. That is my right. If i can afford my own, i should not in anyway have my rights impeded...if others need to have socialized medicine to survive, i support that...but that does not mean that my health care needs should be affected.

    2. That i do not have to pay extra for their health plans that they are getting on my dime, while i get nothing in return...

    so how do you do that?

    the democrats and replublicans don't offer a reasonable solution. Neither works.

    And neither would consider the alternative that i would propose, which serves my needs, and will also help the uninsured get coverage. It is radical, and it will work, but the Democrats and Republicans will never pass it:

    My idea has always been to legalize marijuana and tax it heavily. Myself and plenty others enjoy smoking pot...I am not a drinker, but many others enjoy drinking.

    legalize and heavily tax pot and you have a revenue flow in the 10s of billions per year, not to mention jack up taxes on alcohol.

    28 million uninsured americans, could be covered under my personal plan (I pay about 4000 a year for my high quality private health care plan)

    I am quite sure that a deal could worked out to cover the uninsured in a very basic health care plan, which would cover most major medical, probably for 2,500 dollars a year. I do not think any of these uninsured should have dental covered...they should have basic healthcare for themselves and their children.

    according to my calculations that would be 70 billion a year that is needed to create a separate nationalized plan for the uninsured. It is a quid pro quo...not something for nothing...if there are some folks who are uninsured who want Healthcare, what are they willing to do for someone else to insure they get it? This is not a charity country, it is about survival, comfort, and happiness...so i ask you this, if you do not smoke pot, you do not like pot, and are against legalizing it, but you have no health insurance and you want that pretty badly, what can you do to make this work? simple. Offer someone the same tolerance and compassion you want for yourself. i want to buy my pot legally, so does my friend "Danny" and approximately 60 million+ other americans who smoke on a regular basis.

    Is it worth it to you to say, hmmmmm...if i let Flashy and Danny smoke pot legally, they each will be paying about 20$ in tax on it, on weekly basis, together that is over $2000 a year, and bingo i have my health insurance, is that worth it to me?

    what do you thingk? America is about personal freedom, responsibility and pursuing what makes you happy...if you want something that will help you in your life, it stands to reason, that you will mroe likely get it if you help someone achieve what they want.

    it is that simple...add to the taxation of marijuana, the money saved from the enforcement of ridiculous and draconian drug war laws, and then add in a tax on alcohol (do you think anyone who buys a 38$ bottle of wine at dinner is going to care if it is now a 39.50$ bottle of wine? is it going to stop them?

    or a beer that is 2.50 with a 25 cent surcharge on it?


    but neither the republicans or democrats are willing to do something so "radical" that makes perfect common sense, and will work almosot immediately.

    we could have everyone covered within 3 years by my estimation...

    is that worhth it?

    it is to me...but not to the democrats, and not to the republicans.

    the democrats wants to take my money and give it to someone else for health care while giving me nothing in return. the republicans don't want the uninsured to have health care if it takes my money, but the republicans don;t want me to smoke pot either

    so, sorry, but neither party truly wants "hope" or "change" because that is not what they want...they want control and status quo...it is not as unpredictable.
     
  12. Flashy

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    I would agree with that...but that is not what in fact happens...and Obama does not believe that either.

    Example: when my parents die, my sister and i, according to Obama's plan will have to surrender 45% of our family's lifetime earnings and savings, which have already been taxed as income, as capital gains as well our whole lives every year.

    so answer me this, if this is not your money,(so you are not being penalized anyway) but it is my family's money, and 45% (and more in some cases, not to mention state inheritance/estate taxes) of it is taken from us and given to you and others, how is it that you and others who are not penalized deserve to get money from me and my family that we have been penalized for?

    There is only so much one can have taken from them and given to others before it begins to look less like others who are not being "penalized" are then being given my money after it has been simply taken from me.

    it is hard for people to feel sympathy for "the rich", but i ask you, I believe in progressive taxation, i do not mind paying more than someone earning 30k a year, since i am fortunate to make a very good living, but at one point, as i said earlier, does "progressive" become "punitive"? where is the line?

    If someone came to you and demanded a bit over 1/3rd of your money, you might be pretty upset by that...especially if you lived in a state like i live in (NY) that has high state income taxes as well...(nearly 7%)

    all told i pay nearly 42 percent of my money in taxes...i do not know about you, but i have a much harder time feeling badly for someone else when over 40 % of my money is taken from every year, and then when my parents eventually die, I will have to surrender over half of what our family has spent a lifetime accumulating...

    so how are others being penalized daily that justifies the forced and armed confiscation of that amount of my year and life's work in anyway relevant to what another person might do in their life.

    I don't want the "we" you mention to be penalized, but let's face it, if you are being "penalized" for something, (i do not know what you are referring to as being penalized, so it is hard for me to draw a comparison) it is not my fault, so why should it be at my expense?

    If are young, you have a job that pays you 30-40k a year, you have a health care plan, are you being penalized? I am just fuzzy on what constitutes being penalized...

    I chose a profession that had the potential for a large amount of money (wall street) so hopefully i could do really well, make a bundle of money, invest, learn about money management, and then leave later on to pursue some of my more creative pursuits, and to travel and live and experience and see the world...that is what i did...I made my money, and left Wall Street, and still dabble, but do so on my terms...

    now, i have no quibbles with what people choose to do with their life, but it is not my fault if someone didn't do as well as me...I have sympathy for people who have been unjustly treated, or had their money stolen, or have been exploited...but i have a difficult time feeling that people are being penalized simply for living a life that offers less financial reward than the path i chose to take.

    (sorry for the elongation, but seriously, when you a make a nice pile of cash, then every one talks about the "rich", and then you surrender over 40% of your money per year, you might feel a bit "persecuted" or "penalized" too)


    That is the point...he is not the better choice. Neither is McCain. the better choice is to not vote for the people who have been destroying this country for the past century

    Indeed there is no perfect candidate...but that candidate is even less so when he (or she) chooses to run as the figurehead of either party that stands for corruption, tired ideas, status quo, lies, graft and the downward spiral of our government and our country.



    Maybe so, but if you want a better, kinder america, maybe you should not vote for one of the two parties that embrace the notion of a nasty, partisan, backwards, corrupt, dogmatic and constant war between two very imperfect ideologies, that does nothing to serve the interests of this country, but merely their own selfish dogmas of partisan politics and dust-covered, ineffective solutions.

    He represents the democratic party, who are just as corrupt, and backwards as the republicans.

    if you want to embrace a vision of hope, convince a friend of yours who votes republican to vote libertarian...and at the same time, promise him that you will vote for the Green PArty.

    that is hope. New ideas....not other party-old ideas masquerading as a change from the current other party-old ideas.

    going back and forth between two broken messed up political idelogies is not change, or hope....it is a car that constantly gows down one side of the gully and then up the other, and back down and repeats...till finally, all momentum is gone, and the car lies there, stuck in the gully with no way out, while each side says they can see hope over the horizon if we just take the car to the lip of the opposite side from where it just was, and let it go...

    then everyone is surprised when the car winds up in the gully again.

    you want change and hope, don't vote for the two parties who don't offer it.


    :smile:
     
  13. Flashy

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    thank you...

    i am far too radical for the average american though :wink:
     
  14. VeeP

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    Long term associations with the likes of Rev. Wright, Fr. Pfleger, and William Ayers, eh? No, wait... that's another 'mainstream' candidate.... :rolleyes:
     
  15. stratedude

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    I'd just like to point out that I noticed in the debate that Obama seemed a little obsessed with his opinion that the decision to go to Iraq was a bad one. I'm not sure if he wanted to re-debate that issue or if his policy was to build a time machine to go back in time, but either way, I think McCain showed who was living in the past when he challenge him on it. While Obama wants to relive his glory days of saying that he was opposed to the Iraq war in 2003, we'll elect McCain to actually DEAL with the facts as they are right now.
     
  16. Flashy

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    i am not touching that one...:biggrin1:

    i like to maintain a fairly balanced quota of disgust and dislike for both democrats and republicans alike :wink:

    I am an equal opportunity loather of politicians

    :smile:
     
  17. Flashy

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    well, strate, my friend...i would just like to say that i was busy attempting work on my new cumshot compilation...which was infinitely more stimulating than watching the debate i am sure. :biggrin1:

    Hot chicks & cumshots > Obama & McCain arguing over the same crap
     
  18. VeeP

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    Fair enough... wasn't trying to draw you in... :wink:

    Now that might cause a bit of angst for your campaign if it goes public. Just don't include face and cum in the same pic and you'll be fine... :biggrin1:
     
  19. Flashy

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    my campaign will be cumshot free to the point i will have political blue-balls.

    and with that, i away to bed.

    nighty night all :biggrin1:
     
  20. stratedude

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    Well we all have our priorities, lol. While new porn is always welcome from you, I might not need it when Palin is on next week!
     
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