Oliver Stone; an opportunist?

jeff black

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I am really torn about this movie.

On the one hand, I like what it is standing for. It seems like there has been enough time between 9/11 and now. But I am bothered that they had to bring in Nick Cage, who I am not a fan of, as his actings skills are dry and he brings little to the screen.

the film should have been about the story and not about the actors.
 

SpeedoGuy

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ORCABOMBER said:
These people who died were VICTIMS! Not brave souls, not heros, not people who should be trivialised so easily. OK so films should be made in time as were with the holocaust and other tragic moments, but I smell cash-in.

Orca, are you saying its not possible to be both a victim and a hero? The WTC office workers who were incinerated at their desks were certainly helpless victims. No question about that. But the fire/rescue personnel who rushed into the towers and then were crushed acted bravely and heroically. Doubtless London fire fighters found themselves in the similar situations time and again during the blitz.

But anything to do with Hollywood smells like cash. That's why I'm a bit skeptical about this, like you.
 

mainer1

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Artists creat art. Stone is an artist. Whether or not his work has touched me, I trust his artistry. We all were moved in so many ways by that attack. I have nothing but sympathy for people's freaked out , stunned feelings. I hope that sensitive people still so moved by the attack. I don't think Stone was being an opportunist.
 

davidjh7

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Is he an opportunist? Probably---aren't all people whow are trying to make a buck off of something opportunists? Maybe his motives had some level of nobility to them, but not knowing him, I will never know. I can not watch a movie about 9/11 yet. I watched the PBS made dramatization, and that was enough. I am still too angry at those in the administration, from SEVERAL administrations, for not only allowing the event to occur, but for whoring the event, and the lives lost, for their personal gain. Hell, Reagan CREATED the damned Taliban, and Bin Laden, and basically armed and trained them. THis shit goes so far back, including what the potical administrations do to the US's own citizens, for as long as America has existed. THink Lincoln was a saint? Go read your history about the policies he put in effect. Washington? Jefferson? Roosevelt? Hoover? THe list goes on and on. Everytime a US president has gotten war crazy, the people on ALL sides of the question have suffered, and lost. I am most pissed about the recent crop of American presidents, republican and democrat, who once in power, decide that they just HAVE to say "Hey, I'm the US president--I have a powerful, expensive military--I think I'll use it" Feh---talk about the big cock syndrome...it's like they suddenly gained this enormous penis, and just HAVE to show it off, and wave it in everybodies faces, and fuck the world with it.....unfortunately, given how much other countries leaders have often done the same thing, both male AND female leaders, I'm not sure what the answer is to keep the egos in check......
 

D_Humper E Bogart

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davidjh7, well, I believe in a simple idea. It's called DON'T GET FUCKING INVOLVED!!! Seriously, we're going to spend the next 1000 years trying to solve the mess of the last 100.

SpeedoGuy, the firefighters did their duty, not to take anything away, but I believe that they are heros, every time they decide to walk into hell for the sake of some stupid moron who left the fire on overnight. It's interesting how few adverts they are for the job of firefighter, but I'm buried in BE A HERO! KILL PAKIS! army adverts. Heck, if I compete in the Olypics, I'm a hero! :tongue: Those firefighters did well and honourably, I concede. I was referring to the plane passengers TBH...oh well, at least I'm unlike 90% of the population who care more for the fact the towers collapsed!

ClaireTalon, I love War Comedy, although I feel the US style tends to make if far too weird, it's my broken sense of humour really. I haven't seen any of the 9/11 films as they haven't been shown abroad, but are they documentaries, or is it just "well, this looks cool, so we'll add this" kind of film? If it's that kind, then I think if IS offensive that the facts are being altered for the sake of entertainment. And that is what it seems to me.

Good thing I'm not a New Yorker or had people killed in the incident, I mean talk about RUBBING IT IN! I wouldn't be able to sleep for years after 9/11, yet hear we go, another scene of my "uncle Herb" being disintegrated..:biggrin1:

Well, it's nice to be compared to the great comedy greats! I thankee. And to answer your question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_time should solve it.

Oh, and Newgrounds.com has tons of parodies that make mine seem absurdly tame, although I like my humou black, but I don't think it's for all.

Come to think of it.. http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=1971

It's cruel, but I can't help myself!
 

Hatched69

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Before we go off on a rant calling Oliver Stone an opportunist, we should not forget the biggest (physically and ego-wise) opportunist of them all - Michael Moore. If you recall, his so-called "movie" was released in less than a year after Sept. 11, 2001, and it was the buzz of Tinseltown. Then we found out just how "truthful" things really were. I am not defending our current administration, just pointing out the fact that all is not as it appears. At least Oliver is focusing on the heroes of the day (an attempt to view from a positive perspective), not the follies of everything that went wrong.
 

SpeedoGuy

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Hatched69 said:
Before we go off on a rant calling Oliver Stone an opportunist, we should not forget the biggest (physically and ego-wise) opportunist of them all - Michael Moore.

Agreed. That's part of the reason why I didn't see it. I'm not interested in opportunistic polemics from either the left or the right.
 

ClaireTalon

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ORCABOMBER said:
<.>ClaireTalon, I love War Comedy, although I feel the US style tends to make if far too weird, it's my broken sense of humour really. I haven't seen any of the 9/11 films as they haven't been shown abroad, but are they documentaries, or is it just "well, this looks cool, so we'll add this" kind of film? If it's that kind, then I think if IS offensive that the facts are being altered for the sake of entertainment. And that is what it seems to me.

Good thing I'm not a New Yorker or had people killed in the incident, I mean talk about RUBBING IT IN! I wouldn't be able to sleep for years after 9/11, yet hear we go, another scene of my "uncle Herb" being disintegrated..:biggrin1:
<.>

Haven't you, really? Already two years ago, late-night program here featured a BBC documentary drama on the story of flight 93, it was about an hour and put together from acted scenes and narratives of involved persons on the ground, relatives and so on. I'm not sure about it, but I guess the title was "LET'S ROLL - THE STORY OF FLIGHT 93", or anything in that way. It had one of the main flaws of TV documentary dramas, it was filmed on a pretty cheap set and I guess a little "beefed up" too, if I compare it to United 93. You're right about one thing: Facts must not be altered for the sake of increasing the entertainment value, which is why I liked United 93 so much, it clearly didn't take any active action to become an entertaining movie.

However, there's always a line where good taste ends and tastelessness starts. And beyond that line, I don't mind whether it's just "a bit past the line", or far past it. You're right, yours is harmless compared to the rest, but still tasteless.
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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Stone may or may not be an opportunist, but he is definitely what I consider a "new historian." Prior to the nineteen hundreds, historians revised (aka reinvented) history, usually after no one was left alive to rebut them. Today the pop culture defines history, shaping our perceptions of events in movies and on TV. Bono has more credibilty than any living historian, and when he makes pronouncements about the causes of Africa's problems, for instance, millions listen and accept his word as fact. He can influence even George Bush's thinking and get billions of dollars in aid from world leaders. Pseudodocumentaries like Moore's are accepted as fact by millions of Americans (does anyone read anymore?). An alarming poll revealed that millions of Americans under thirty get their "knowledge" of politics from Jon Stewart. A satirist, for crissake! News anchors have enormous power to shape perceptions simply by what they choose to showcase. They can create a nation sympathetic to or hostile against Israel with this manipuation, for example. Since pop culture now has assumed the role of historian, we have to keep a wary eye on filmmakers in particular. Stone has already tried his hand at creating history with JFK. Hollywood has churned out hundreds of movie about wars that are accessed far more than historians' analyses. Henry Luce made no secret that he aimed at manipulating the public in Time. I guess the most I can hope for is a little credibility and due dilgence in gathering facts from filmmakers. I can say with certainty that many Americans will have their views about 9/11 shaped by Oliver Stone even if he focues on the human drama, and though he is a talented movie director, after JFK, I don't hold high hopes for objectivity or careful analysis of a complex problem. I don't place blame on Stone or others in the pop culture or news media, though. As Pogo said, We have met the enemy, and he is us."
 

SpeedoGuy

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COLJohn said:
...I don't hold high hopes for objectivity or careful analysis of a complex problem. I don't place blame on Stone or others in the pop culture or news media, though. As Pogo said, We have met the enemy, and he is us."

Agreed. I generally don't hold high hopes for anything really objective coming from Hollywood. Facts too often get manipulated to enhance drama. That's what bugs me so much about much of the current rhetoric surrounding the occupation of Iraq and conflict in other hot spots in the middle east.

With my gripes, though, I have to ask: Was objective analysis in cinema or print ever really possible for a popular audience? Has anyone ever been able to accomplish it?