Omigosh I love Sweden and Switzerland!! No estate tax!!

[Wyldgusechaz]

As Mercurialbliss so aptly suggested, lets pick and choose the best from Europe. Those blond headed bastards the Swedes and Swiss have it going on when it comes to estate taxes! I love them bastards especially the Swedes and their hot promiscuous women! And I know everyone here has a total love crush on the Swiss, those secretive munchkins and their wonderful country. And lets see if we can't get the French medical system!! You neo rads love it to death (and in truth it seems darn good)

However our Socialist Prez wants to keep the estate tax in America at 46% even tho it is scheduled to die. WTF? If we get to pick lets do it right, doncha think? You on board Mercurial? I mean monies that go into an estate have already been taxed at least once. Why smack it again? Whats fair in that? Prez Obama is looking more and more like a confiscatory wolf in sheep's clothing raiding whatever dough he can get his greedy mitts on. He says he wants to be more like Europe well then prove you aren't a political money grubber, show us your stuff and repeal the estate tax, just like our European buddies.

 

[D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse]

Wild Goose:

I'm glad you're slowly coming around to the idea of Sweden. Sweden just voted to legalize gay marriage yesterday, by the way. So, if you ever find yourself switch-hitting and getting involved with a gander, then Sweden's a place that Mr. & Mr. Wildgusechaz can legally tie the knot.

 

[Novaboy]

Check out the income tax rate in Sweden. At one time the highest tax bracket was 85%! I always feel that estate tax is a crime. Everything that the deceased person bought in his/her life time was already taxed. No justification for it what so ever.

 

[HazelGod]

I always feel that estate tax is a crime. Everything that the deceased person bought in his/her life time was already taxed. No justification for it what so ever.

I agree.

I also feel the government has no claim to gambling winnings. I put up my own money and assumed all the risk in a game of chance...if I lose the game, I eat the loss, but if I happen to win something, Uncle Sam stands there with his hand out for a percentage? Fuck that.

 

[deleted15807]

Every time money changes hands Tony gets a cut. How fuckin hard is that to understand?:duh:

 

[B_starinvestor]

As Mercurialbliss so aptly suggested, lets pick and choose the best from Europe. Those blond headed bastards the Swedes and Swiss have it going on when it comes to estate taxes! I love them bastards especially the Swedes and their hot promiscuous women! And I know everyone here has a total love crush on the Swiss, those secretive munchkins and their wonderful country. And lets see if we can't get the French medical system!! You neo rads love it to death (and in truth it seems darn good)

However our Socialist Prez wants to keep the estate tax in America at 46% even tho it is scheduled to die. WTF? If we get to pick lets do it right, doncha think? You on board Mercurial? I mean monies that go into an estate have already been taxed at least once. Why smack it again? Whats fair in that? Prez Obama is looking more and more like a confiscatory wolf in sheep's clothing raiding whatever dough he can get his greedy mitts on. He says he wants to be more like Europe well then prove you aren't a political money grubber, show us your stuff and repeal the estate tax, just like our European buddies.

Truly a burglar's tax. How many times can the Democrats tax the same dollar? Jesus Krist. A responsible citizen coughs up oodles of his income to the pathetic government, and the fucking Democrats chase him around in the afterlife for more taxes.

Tax his corpse too. So the druggers can collect that public assistance with a free mind.

Fucking pathetic.

 

[earllogjam]

Estate tax as in inheritance?
Why do you deserve money that you never earned but were just lucky to be born into?

Knowing some trust fund babies that have grown up without knowing how to make a living is it tragic how lost and utterly tragic these people are and what little they have accomplished in life. You would think that getting free money like being on welfare a whole world opens up for you but unfortunately the ones I know have just become complacent self absorbed depression ridden failures in life.

 

[B_starinvestor]

Estate tax as in inheritance?
Why do you deserve money that you never earned but were just lucky to be born into?

Knowing some trust fund babies that have grown up without knowing how to make a living is it tragic how lost and utterly tragic these people are and what little they have accomplished in life. You would think that getting free money like being on welfare a whole world opens up for you but unfortunately the ones I know have just become complacent self absorbed depression ridden failures in life.

Earl, do you really think that trust fund babies are the only ones that are subject to an estate tax?

Think again.

If one truly draws income from a trust, there will not be an estate tax. An irrevocable trust is its own entity - it has its own tax ID number. Those folk have outsmarted the gov't.

Uh, anyone that has a half-wit financial planner will avoid a great portion of the estate tax in most cases.

Won't bore anyone with the details, but if a wealthy individual has good health, he/she has a number of options. If he/she isn't in good health, its still a crime to tax their [already taxed] dollars again.

But then again, we do have a Democratic majority; which is more concerned with the welfare recipients than those that create jobs and taxes.

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

However our Socialist Prez wants to keep the estate tax in America at 46% even tho it is scheduled to die. WTF? If we get to pick lets do it right, doncha think? You on board Mercurial? I mean monies that go into an estate have already been taxed at least once. Why smack it again? Whats fair in that? Prez Obama is looking more and more like a confiscatory wolf in sheep's clothing raiding whatever dough he can get his greedy mitts on. He says he wants to be more like Europe well then prove you aren't a political money grubber, show us your stuff and repeal the estate tax, just like our European buddies.

Actually the tax isn't set to die, it's taking a year off. Then it's coming back again at a higher rate(55%) with a lower exemption cutoff(from 3.5mil to 1mil). That law was passed in a Republican-majority congress with a Republican president.

See: U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home > Votes > Roll Call Vote

Truly a burglar's tax. How many times can the Democrats tax the same dollar? Jesus Krist. A responsible citizen coughs up oodles of his income to the pathetic government, and the fucking Democrats chase him around in the afterlife for more taxes.

Well Republicans designed the sunset provisions of the law, go argue with them about it. Republican presidents such as Teddy Roosevelt have been strongly supportive of the estate tax.

"A heavy progressive tax upon a very large fortune is in no way such a tax upon thrift or industry as a like would be on a small fortune. No advantage comes either to the country as a whole or to the individuals inheriting the money by permitting the transmission in their entirety of the enormous fortunes which would be affected by such a tax; and as an incident to its function of revenue raising, such a tax would help to preserve a measurable equality of opportunity for the people of the generations growing to manhood. "We have not the slightest sympathy with that socialistic idea which would try to put laziness, thriftlessness and inefficiency on a par with industry, thrift and efficiency; which would strive to break up not merely private property, but what is far more important, the home, the chief prop upon which our whole civilization stands. Such a theory, if ever adopted, would mean the ruin of the entire country--a ruin which would bear heaviest upon the weakest, upon those least able to shift for themselves.
"But proposals for legislation such as this herein advocated are directly opposed to this class of socialistic theories. Our aim is to recognize what Lincoln pointed out: The fact that there are some respects in which men are obviously not equal; but also to insist that there should be an equality of self-respect and of mutual respect, an equality of rights before the law, and at least an approximate equality in the conditions under which each man obtains the chance to show the stuff that is in him when compared to his fellows."

As far as double taxation, many assets that are taxed under the estate tax only are taxed upon their sale, so the tax accounts for the appreciation in value.

Earl, do you really think that trust fund babies are the only ones that are subject to an estate tax?

Think again.

If one truly draws income from a trust, there will not be an estate tax. An irrevocable trust is its own entity - it has its own tax ID number. Those folk have outsmarted the gov't.

Uh, anyone that has a half-wit financial planner will avoid a great portion of the estate tax in most cases.

Won't bore anyone with the details, but if a wealthy individual has good health, he/she has a number of options. If he/she isn't in good health, its still a crime to tax their [already taxed] dollars again.

But then again, we do have a Democratic majority; which is more concerned with the welfare recipients than those that create jobs and taxes.

Not sure what you're saying, here unless you're saying that the estate tax is regressive, and if so, LOL.

Unless you're very rich, you don't have to pay the estate tax. Even if you're moderately rich, you find the way around. Less than 3% of all inheritances pay an estate tax currently, but the ones that do are large enough to present some significant tax income for the US.

Repealing or lowering the estate tax is nothing more than a handout to the rich, so it's not surprising that a Republican/Conservative shill would be supporting it. I know you're against progressive taxation, and there's nothing I can say to make you change your mind.

 

[Flashy]

I agree.

I also feel the government has no claim to gambling winnings. I put up my own money and assumed all the risk in a game of chance...if I lose the game, I eat the loss, but if I happen to win something, Uncle Sam stands there with his hand out for a percentage? Fuck that.

presumably you are against Capital Gains taxes as well, Hazel?

same principle (just curious)

 

[HazelGod]

presumably you are against Capital Gains taxes as well, Hazel?

same principle (just curious)

Same principle only in the roughest understanding. In reality, the differences are vast. For a quick illustration, my blowing $500 at the craps table in Vegas doesn't do a whole lot for the economy as a whole. My investing that same $500 into stocks or commodities, on the other hand, does. Now scale that out as big as you like. Gambling is also much more dependent on chance. I can memorize the payout structures of every bet on the felt and study the probabilities of two cubes, but my ultimate win or loss will be determined by how someone rolled those dice at one moment. Investment vehicles can also be studied for probabilities, but the volatility (and attendant risk) is much less because the influential factors are more distributed across both time and vectors.

To your question though, I am actually fine with our current model of CG taxation. Given that most small businesses are not profitable all the time, particularly during their startup phases, I believe the current tax code that allows business owners to write down capital losses is an equitable offset to the increased short-term gains tax rate. That loss write-down provision, plus the short/long term gains distinction serve to encourage entrepreneurship and continued investment, as opposed to hit-and-run speculation.

 

[Flashy]

thank you for expanding on it.

I too have less of a problem with Capital Gains tax as they are now which is not too bad at all (15% in my bracket)

i was just curious, because the line below, even if it is "gambling" is still tantamount to the investment you make in the stock market, ultimately for "capital gains" (i.e. win or lose)

"I put up my own money and assumed all the risk in a game of chance...if I lose the game, I eat the loss, but if I happen to win something, Uncle Sam stands there with his hand out for a percentage? Fuck that."

Capitalism in and of itself, as well as investment, is technically, rather close to the definition you wrote in the first sentence (which i happen to agree with wholeheartedly)

I have very little problem with reasonable capital gains taxes as they are now, but a much bigger problem with exorbitant income taxes (i favor progressive taxation but i believe nobody should have to give the federal government more than 30% of their total pay) and the estate tax infuriates me on every level, no matter the percentage.

IMO, there should be absolutely zero tax on estates under 25 million, and on estates over that amount, it should not be over 15% (roughly)

 

[B_starinvestor]

To your question though, I am actually fine with our current model of CG taxation. Given that most small businesses are not profitable all the time, particularly during their startup phases, I believe the current tax code that allows business owners to write down capital losses is an equitable offset to the increased short-term gains tax rate. That loss write-down provision, plus the short/long term gains distinction serve to encourage entrepreneurship and continued investment, as opposed to hit-and-run speculation.

This is the essence of capitalism.

If you truly are a proponent of this principle, I am baffled by your posting patterns.

 

[HazelGod]

i was just curious, because the line below, even if it is "gambling" is still tantamount to the investment you make in the stock market, ultimately for "capital gains" (i.e. win or lose)

Capitalism in and of itself, as well as investment, is technically, rather close to the definition you wrote in the first sentence (which i happen to agree with wholeheartedly)

Surely they're similar in principle...but I think the distinction is that a successful investment benefits both me and the broader economy around me, and that effect scales with the number of investors/entrepreneurs in play. A gambling win just puts money in my pocket. Since the greater society isn't directly affected by my gambling outcome, I don't see where Uncle Sam has any claim to any of my profits of chance.

the estate tax infuriates me on every level, no matter the percentage.

IMO, there should be absolutely zero tax on estates under 25 million, and on estates over that amount, it should not be over 15% (roughly)

Honestly, I see the estate tax in the same light as the gambling tax. There isn't really any rationale for the government to claim a portion of my family's assets simply because they're changing hands. The liquid funds have already been taxed, and taxes were paid on the capital assets when they were purchased...so I don't see where people should have to pay any further levies.

 

[B_starinvestor]

I have very little problem with reasonable capital gains taxes as they are now, but a much bigger problem with exorbitant income taxes (i favor progressive taxation but i believe nobody should have to give the federal government more than 30% of their total pay) and the estate tax infuriates me on every level, no matter the percentage.

IMO, there should be absolutely zero tax on estates under 25 million, and on estates over that amount, it should not be over 15% (roughly)

And get rid of that ridiculous gift tax, which is a limb of the estate tax anyway. Penalizing someone for transferring wealth to family before or after death is rather disturbing.

 

[earllogjam]

Earl, do you really think that trust fund babies are the only ones that are subject to an estate tax?

Think again.

I believe the cap of Federal untaxed inheritance allowed is now $3.5 million up from $2 million in 2006-08.

Most people don't inherit $3.5 million so the Federal estate tax does not affect the majority of American.

Can you not get by on $3.5 million untaxed inheritance dollars?

 

[B_starinvestor]

I believe the cap of Federal untaxed inheritance allowed is now $3.5 million up from $2 million in 2006-08.

Most people don't inherit $3.5 million so the Federal estate tax does not affect the majority of American.

Can you not get by on $3.5 million untaxed inheritance dollars?

Not trying to split hairs, but the individual receiving the inheritance is not taxed. The tax hits the estate before the estate is transferred.

I guess another way to look at it is this.

You build a company with hundreds of employees. You make a good living, but your not liquid-rich. Your company is worth 10 million dollars on paper due to its annual profits.

When you die, your kids need to get around $3 million in cash together within approximately 9 months to pay the estate tax. Otherwise they are forced to sell your business at a fire-sale price to pay the tax.

You worked your entire life building that company and it is sold away at a fraction of its value due to an invasive and cruel tax.

there is this perception in the liberal community that conservatives are a bunch of trust fund babies wlking around with cash falling out of their pockets and yachting around the eastern seaboard.

Its ridiculous. There are farmers that live like peasants, whose farms are 'worth' 8 million dollars according to some tax assessment, and their families are forced to sell the farm because they suddenly owe $3 million in estate tax after pa dies.

Those are the real victims in this estate tax scenario. Farmers.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

To am extent I am with Hazel on the gambling tax. Its a form of recreation. It truly is not investing. It could be just the thrill of the win. No different than sky diving or landing a marlin or a hole in one. How can I say his recreation should be taxed, just because he gets a monetary reward? Now if it were his profession that is different but a recrational gambler?

Plus I believe the gambling losses are deductible only if you claim yourself as a pro gambler. The wins are taxed and the losses are not? Hmmm? Plus if you win a big score of $20000, they take the tax out right there. If you lose $20k you really can't deduct it today and get the loss today, it waits till April 15th.

 

[B_starinvestor]

To am extent I am with Hazel on the gambling tax. Its a form of recreation. It truly is not investing. It could be just the thrill of the win. No different than sky diving or landing a marlin or a hole in one. How can I say his recreation should be taxed, just because he gets a monetary reward? Now if it were his profession that is different but a recrational gambler?

Plus I believe the gambling losses are deductible only if you claim yourself as a pro gambler. The wins are taxed and the losses are not? Hmmm? Plus if you win a big score of $20000, they take the tax out right there. If you lose $20k you really can't deduct it today and get the loss today, it waits till April 15th.

But what about horseracing? I know professionals that created an algorithm based on the show pool and odds. They are killing it. It has become a full time job.

BTW, when Hazel hits it big on the craps table, he should be sticking those chips in all kinds of places...and only cashing a few at a time.

 

[earllogjam]

Those are the real victims in this estate tax scenario. Farmers.

Are farmers and owners of companies excluded from creating trust funds?

There are many ways to get around estate taxes it would be surprising that these enterprising folks fail to take advantage them.

I agree with you that this would be devastating for the small family farm. But the demise of those farms is much more complicated than just blaming estate taxes. Unregulated foreign competition, taxes and subsidies favoring mega ag corporations, and economies of scale probably have much more to do with the disappearing family farm. I have personally seen that the farmer's kids are giving up the family farm because of easier more lucrative work elsewhere or they just end up selling out to housing subdivisions or to a mega ag company, not because of unwieldy estate taxes.