One of the world's biggest dicks . . .

[D_Martin van Burden]

[quote author=Pecker link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=0#17 date=12/16/03 at 05:06:22]Dee, would you have Mr. Bush homogenize the country into a U.N.-type entity, an irrelavent, powerless, ass-kissing stooge that bends over when a terrorist says, "F**k you!"?[/quote]

No, Pecker. I would rather have a leader who's fully cognizant of how the billions dumped into a "war effort" could have been better spent elsewhere -- you know, domestic medical care, bolstering the economy (what... the Dow closed over 10,000 for the first time in eighteen months, was it?), health care, social services funding, job placement programs, children's welfare, families (in the real life sense as opposed to this never-say-die American prototype -- WASP, 2.4 kids, the dog, the picket fence).

And I'd rather have a leader with a sustainable command over the English language who could be straightfoward and honest about his ideas, rather than resort to freedom-laced rhetoric. Not that I have a transcript of his speeches on file, but I cringe at the thought of redundancy and vagueness weaved throughout.

And if you read my last post carefully, notice that I'm not upset that Sadaam is in custody. It's about damn time. Of course, and I'm sure more would agree... the American public has been looking for some kind of "progess" for a long, long, long time now. Until Sadaam was captured, soldiers were dying rather needlessly everyday, were they not?

So, if a leader who "homogenize the country into a U.N.-type entity, an irrelavent, powerless, ass-kissing stooge that bends over when a terrorist says, 'F**k you!'?" is really guilty of taking care of his own people and addressing their needs, by all means, give me that leader. Rather that leader than a madman who's so hellbent on such a narrow and skewed perception of what it means to have American freedom, that he neglects his populous.

 

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mindseye: Hear, hear!

...and give me someone who's selfless enough to organize the rebuilding of Iraq based on what's in Iraq's best interests rather than based on 'which countries do I want to snub today?'

...and give me someone whose opposition to terrorists isn't based on how much oil they have; someone who'd be working just as hard to find a humane peace in Burma, Colombia, and The Congo (for example) -- all of whose people are experiencing atrocities as grotesque as anything Saddam Hussein did to his people.

 

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Donk: [quote author=DeeBlackthorne link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#20 date=12/16/03 at 07:42:25]
. . . bolstering the economy . . .
[/quote]

It should be noted that the economy is currently growing at its fastest rate in nearly 20 years (i.e., since Reagan was president) and most economists have revised their forecasts for 2004 sharply upward. That fact will also address all the other domestic issues you mention.

 

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lttle1: On second thought, never mind.

 

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bradleeM: Dee, Sven, rrrrrr,

If any of you can do a better job then do it!!! The Germans are still living in freedom because of our soldiers blood, sweat, and tears, otherwise you would be speaking Russian today, and the Frogs to!!!

 

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bradleeM: Dee,

When was the last time you put your life on the line for another person's freedom? It is easy to sit and listen to socialist profs tell you how bad it is to live in this country but they don't tell you that freedom is not free, someone has to sacrifice their lives for everyone else. You people will not be satisfied until the terrorists are the streets of this country doing more suicide bombings. Maybe when you lose someone at the hands of the terrorists you will change your tune and wish a leader like Bush was in office.

BTW Howard Dean is going nowhere..........the majority of americans are not stupid yet.....he is an idiot like the rest of dimwits running for the dems nomination. Hillary has a bigger dick and balls than all of them put together, and she only has a clit. That is the state of the Dem Party......very ironic that Dean has Gore's support.........at least he will know who to turn to when he writes his concession speech.

All of you should be happy you live in the freest country on the planet and do not have to depend on leaders like Putin, Chirac, Schroeder and Chretian to protect your freedom, or on the sanity of people like Bin Laden and Hussein. If you do not like it here there are 170 other countries you can try your beliefs in.......see how tha goes over in those countries.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

Brad,

I would never, ever, EVER fight for this country.  I would never put myself on the front line unless I had full confidence, love, support, and loyalty to his nation, and as it stands now, I don't.  You say it's so much easier to sit on the sidelines and mock the war efforts, when in reality, I'm one of many, many people who have to comfort the loved ones of the people who die overseas.  These families understand that sacrifices must be made for freedom, but at the same time, the families still ask, "Why did my son (or daughter) have to die today?"  Brad, do me a favor.  Go up to someone who lost a child in war and say, "...someone has to sacrifice their lives."  Death, casuality, and warfare are never that clear-cut.

But hey... don't take my word for it.  You can read Rev. Tandy Sloan's interview [link=http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2704823/detail.html]here[/link].  

As far as "people like me" go, we won't be satisfied until Bush comes clean with what drove the war effort.  

It's so easy to say "freedom."  It's easy to say "America."  It's sad to remember those killed on 9-11.  But, last time I checked, even with the rise in terrorism, Americans weren't and were never in danger of losing their constitutional rights, their freedoms, and their liberties.  We can still vote, walk the streets, learn, protest, and participate in politics (though, now more than ever, I question who's really running things around here).  Even though our international relations are going to shit, hey, we're big bad ass Americans (insert thumbs in pockets and straw in mouth), ain't we, pardner?

No.

Terrorism is on a list of social atrocities with a much more lengthy history, including, but certainly not limited to racism, sexism, classism, the drug war, class consciousness, the wage gap -- and now more than ever -- leadership that's driven by its own agendas.  I suppose "socialist profs" are the ultimate drudge because they remind us that, even with Bush's big ol' Texan let's-get-'em foreign policy (a.k.a. invade first, come up with the logistics later), these real problems AREN'T going away.  Oh, that's right, Brad.  The poor and the disenfranchised are supposed to pull themselves by their boot straps, eh?  Is that right?

We live in the land of the free, but I'm not easily deceived by that line.  We're not free, Brad.  We have a hell of a lot more privilege than most nations, and we don't have to worry about starvation or famine.  But at the same time, all our country has done is contribute to 320 deaths.  We're making enemies, burning bridges.  We're not cooperating with nations.  We're financing the Iraqi reconstruction because we can get at some of the oil that's still out there, and Hailburton, et. al., have some millions to make.  

Oh, and if getting Sadaam was our way of chipping away at the terrorist block... well, who knows... I might see more bombings in the street as of yet.

We've caught Sadaam, but unrest still remains.  People like Donk say the economy's rising, but I'm more familiar with people who are desperate to get off of welfare and can't live on $5.15 an hour.

Oh, and thank you for your lovely commentary on Dean.  That's real sweet considering that, in three lines, you just bashed him on ad hominem level.  Just keep denigrating... that's about as substantive as your political arguments can get...

I'm done.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

[quote author=Donk link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#22 date=12/16/03 at 17:46:10]That fact will also address all the other domestic issues you mention.[/quote]

Thanks, but I'll believe it when I see it. Fair enough?

 

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hawl: [quote author=bradleeM link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#24 date=12/16/03 at 19:07:15]Dee, Sven, rrrrrr,  

If any of you can do a better job then do it!!!  [/quote]In case there's any genuine confusion: like skeptical old non-"born again" George Bush I and his cronies (Colin Powell, James Baker, etc.,) back in the day, I have never claimed that I could do a better job running Iraq or other Arab countries. I think Karl Rove would like me to update conservatives here on the direction the Bush family is finally returning to-www.antiwar.com/ips/lobe121303.html.

 

[Ralexx]

[quote author=bradleeM link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#24 date=12/16/03 at 19:07:15]Dee, Sven, rrrrrr,  

If any of you can do a better job then do it!!!  The Germans are still living in freedom because of our soldiers blood, sweat, and tears, otherwise you would be speaking Russian today, and the Frogs to!!![/quote]

Very nice, very nice indeed, that's a famous motto for boosting some historical vanity  ;D. I heard it over and over again this year... I should perhaps reply with another famous motto for boosting historical vanities : without France, there would have been no US. Now that's cool, isn't it ?

PS - of course I could tell you why they (the Frogs and the Germans) wouldn't have spoke Russian after all, but I do prefer letting your childish ego intact...   It's more amusing. ( : That's my Froggy pride speaking.)


As for the rest : Dee - kudos !!!!!!

 

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tracksuitboy: It is the nature of debate that partisan arguments are always on yaa-boo, "I'm right and you're wrong" basis.

[quote author=Donk link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#22 date=12/16/03 at 17:46:10]It should be noted that the economy is currently growing at its fastest rate in nearly 20 years (i.e., since Reagan was president) and most economists have revised their forecasts for 2004 sharply upward. That fact will also address all the other domestic issues you mention.[/quote]One part of this statement is true; third quarter GDP in the US is up to just over 8%; however, it is also true that there are 2.5 million less jobs in the US since Bush took office.

[quote author=bradleeM link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#24 date=12/16/03 at 19:07:15]The Germans are still living in freedom because of our soldiers blood, sweat, and tears, otherwise you would be speaking Russian today[/quote]I have no idea where the Russian comes from!  Surely I would be speaking German?  However, you typically present this in true America-won-the-war style.  May I remind you that from 1939-1941 the Brits, Australians, Canadians and others, as well as the  French & Norwegian underground were fighting the war, London and Plymouth were bombed to an extent which no non-Brit could understand unless you experienced it (Plymouth - where I live - suffered more bombing and death per capita than London or anywhere else in the UK).  The USA finally turned up in 1941 and I will admit that the co-operation of your country did make a huge difference.  The UK had been recovering from the first world war when millions of our young men were killed - a generation virtually wiped out.  The war began in 1914 and ended in 1918 but the USA did not join until 1917, therefore you did not suffer the same degree of loss as the British and their allies did. Germany had been preparing for a war since the thirties so they were better equipped than the UK.  I do think we managed to hold our own until the Americans joined in - which you only did because of Pearl Harbour; had that not happened, Roosevelt would still have had oppostion to his belief that the US should enter the war.  I am not quibbling that the presence of America and it's war machine certainly made a huge difference, but I do object strongly to your inference that "the Yanks won the war" as if you bloody well did it on your own.  On a tanget: films such as "U-571" don't help either.  The film shows Americans stealing the Enigma machine which, by general consensus among people who study these things, cut a good five years off the war.  The only problem with the film is that the Enigma machine was stolen by the British, not the Americans.  This kind of barefaced Hollywood lie just reinforces incorrect beliefs


[quote author=bradleeM link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#25 date=12/16/03 at 19:17:51]You people will not be satisfied until the terrorists are the streets of this country doing more suicide bombings.  Maybe when you lose someone at the hands of the terrorists you will change your tune and wish a leader like Bush was in office. [/quote]The hunt for bin Laden, the bombing of Afghanistan and the removal of the Taliban are part of the fight against terrorism.  The US, UK, Australian, Isreali (and other) intelligence agencies are doing whatever-the-hell-it-is-that-intelligence-agencies-do behind the scenes to gather information and move in on these terrorist cells.  Two weeks ago, a man was arrested in the UK who had bomb making equipment and who was linked to the so-called "shoe bomber" (Richard somebody-or-other).  So these things constitute The Fight Against Terrorism.  However, the invasion of Iraq and the removal and subsequent capture of Saddam are not part of that fight.  Dee did not criticise the fight against terrorism, nor have I and nor has anyone else on this board to my knowledge.  But you berrate him as though he did in true "if you're not with us, you're against us" style.  There is no logic in your statement.

BTW Howard Dean is going nowhere..........the majority of americans are not stupid yet.....he is an idiot like the rest of dimwits running for the dems nomination.  Hillary has a bigger dick and balls than all of them put together, and she only has a clit.  That is the state of the Dem Party......very ironic that Dean has Gore's support.........at least he will know who to turn to when he writes his concession speech.

If this is the state of political argument in the US, then no wonder only 50% bothered to vote in 2000.  This is nothing but a rant with no facts or carefully constructed opinion to back it up.

All of you should be happy you live in the freest country on the planet and do not have to depend on leaders like Putin, Chirac, Schroeder and Chretian to protect your freedom, or on the sanity of people like Bin Laden and Hussein.  If you do not like it here there are 170 other countries you can try your beliefs in.......see how tha goes over in those countries.

I could claim that Britain is the freest country ... or the Aussies could ... or the Swedes, the Swiss or practically anyone else in the West.  You are no more free than I.  Our countries are controlled by 'the establishment', those with money and power, all we - as ordinary citizens - can do is vote every now and then and decide which bunch of self-interested twats we put into office.  Our respective countries are controlled by the big corporations ... the big money ... not by you and me.  We either choose to believe the lies we are fed by the establishment or we don't.  American believes Castro and Cuba to be Evil and you won't trade with them because it is a communist dictatorship.  But China is also a communist dictatorship and you do trade with them.  That's a typical double standard (and the rest of The West is no different).  You chose to invade Iraq on the basis that it had WMDs and it represented a terrorist threat and yet 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia which is a dictatorship with ruthless laws and where women are treated as third class citizens but the US/The West did not invade that country.  Why? Well, we know why, they sell us oil and the Saudi royal family become very rich in the process and our companies can continue their various trades and make huge profits because of that oil.

 

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tracksuitboy: [quote author=MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=0#16 date=12/16/03 at 04:15:01]Dubya, ( That's George W. Bush!) has gone after these motherfuckers with an unparalleled vengeance! And you sayHe should be in jail as a war criminal? What kind of stupid statement is that anyway?! Learn your history before you go shooting off your mouth again.
[/quote]
[quote author=Pecker link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=0#17 date=12/16/03 at 05:06:22]Give me a leader who not only believes in "freedom," "justice," "fairness," "security," and most of all, "America[n]," but proudly announces it to the world.  I follow him with pride.[/quote]
[quote author=Donk link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=0#18 date=12/16/03 at 05:42:37] I guess it was somewhat naive of me to think we could all just agree that capturing one of history's most brutal tyrants was a good thing and that some people could resist the temptation to add their potshots at the man most responsible for bringing him to justice.[/quote]


So, the US can take great delight in removing an evil dictator.  Then please consider this:

1953: US overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran and installs the Shah as dictator.

1954: US overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala (200,000 were killed in the process).

1950's: CIA trains Saddam Hussain to remove British-installed ruler of Iraq.  Saddam subsequently uses this knowledge and CIA backing to become dictator.

1963: US backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.  1963 - 1975 US military kills 4 million people in southeast Asia.

1973: US stages a coup in Chile and democratically-elected President Allende is assassinated.  Pinochet is installed as dictator and 5000 Chileans are killed.

1977: US backs military rules of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans are killed along with 4 American nuns.

1980's: US trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets in Afghanistan and gives them $3 billion.

1981: The Reagan administration trains and funds the contras.  30,000 Nicaraguans die.

1982: US gives billions of dollars in aid to Saddam Hussain for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to kill Iraqis.  Donald Rumsfeld visits Saddam Hussain in Bagdhad and provides the US installed dictator with chemical weapons.

1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega as serving President of Panama disobeys orders from Washington.  US invades Panama and removes him from office; there are 3000 Panamanian civilian casualties.

1990: Iraq invades Kuwait using arms supplied by the US.

1991: US enters Iraq but President Bush effectively keeps Saddam Hussain as dictator.

1991 to present day: US bombs Iraq on a weekly basis.  UN estimates that 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.

2001 / 2001: US gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in aid.

September 11th 2001: Osama bin Laden uses his expert CIA training and US provided funds to murder 3000 people.

 

[MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK]

[quote author=bradleeM link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#24 date=12/16/03 at 19:07:15]Dee, Sven, rrrrrr,  

If any of you can do a better job then do it!!!  The Germans are still living in freedom because of our soldiers blood, sweat, and tears, otherwise you would be speaking Russian today, and the Frogs to!!![/quote]
What a completely unbiased opinion you have there, Bradlee. :-/

 

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hawl: [quote author=bradleeM link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#25 date=12/16/03 at 19:17:51]  
BTW Howard Dean is going nowhere..........the majority of americans are not stupid yet.....he is an idiot like the rest of dimwits running for the dems nomination.  Hillary has a bigger dick and balls than all of them put together, and she only has a clit.  That is the state of the Dem Party......  If you do not like it here there are 170 other countries you can try your beliefs in.......see how tha goes over in those countries.[/quote]By the way, that is the thanks John Kerry and other Democrats who have risked their lives for this country get? I hope you overcome whatever personal difficulties you are going through, because you are the one acting like a hot potato that likely not one of "170 other countries" would want as a citizen.

 

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tracksuitboy: Being a li'l old Brit, I haven't a clue who John Kerry (or the others mentioned above) is but do I gather that he / they served in the Army? Whereas Dubya didn't (mind you, nor did Clinton!).

 

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longtimelurker: [quote author=rrrrrr link=board=meetgreet;num=1071422232;start=20#33 date=12/17/03 at 07:27:22]
By the way, that is the thanks John Kerry and other Democrats who have risked their lives for this country get? I hope you overcome whatever personal difficulties you are going through, because you are the one acting like a hot potato that likely not one of "170 other countries" would want as a citizen.
[/quote]

That's one fact that I've always found quite interesting - all the anti-war politicians (Chirac, Schroeder, Powell (OK, a bit dubious but he did try to pull all the stops to go via UN), Dean etc.) had actually been involved in the front line in some war or other. The major pro-war politicians (Bush, Blair and undoubtedly a large number of other current admin members) had never been involved in military conflict.

OK, a bit over-simplified, but interesting none-the-less, no?

Oh, and TSB, Kerry is one of the current Democrat candidates and yes, he is also a war veteran (Vietnam, I think).

 

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bradleeM: To Tracksuitboy and rrrrrrr:

One thing that the rest of the world knows is this.........the American taxpayer pays for the defense of their countries. European Union knows that and in the next few years their citizens are going to have to make a choice between their socialist programs and defending themselves. They have already been told by this administration they are going to have to foot the bill when it comes to defending themselves. Then we shall see what their citizens think of America when they have to choose between their "Cradle to Grave" social programs and footing more of the bill for their own defense. What the Iraq situation has brought to the table is the fact that America has to pay to make the whole world safe for freedom, otherwise there would not be any. Remove America from the scene and you will see a whole different picture, and everyone knows it. What everyone fails to see is the fact that if Germany, France, and Russia had joined the coalition from the beginning to oust Saddam and his henchmen, there would not have been a war. And Bin Laden would have been put on notice that the world was coming after him and his henchmen, and peace to that whole region would come much faster. But it will take a terrorist bomb somewhere in Europe to finally wake up the europeans to the real threat. In 1998 or 1999 the terrorists had hijacked a plane from North Africa and were headed for Paris to crash the plane into the Eiffel Tower. It failed for one reason.....the pilot told them that they had to refuel in Malta, which they allowed him to do and their plot was thwarted. How many people on this site were aware of that?
One thing I do not like is the fact that Bush is demonized by a lot of people on this site.........and when one hits back at their favorite leaders with the same verbage, they cry foul real fast!!!!
As far as America winning the wars, that has never been in dispute by any historian writing about WW I or II. That is not to say that others roles were not critical, obviously they were. American, Australia, and England, will always be on the same side when there is a major war. We all came from the same source.
I believe that Terrorism is the greatest threat to Western Civilization. If Bin Laden had been successful in attacking 30 targets that were planned on 9-11-01, the world would be even more different than it is today.
What that attack showed was how vulnerable free societies are. If that is not enough to shake up even the most hard core cynic, then, there may not be any hope for anyone. If we are not willing to fight for a peaceful world, then, we do not deserve to have one to live in. When your enemy tells you that he wants you dead.........there is no room for negotiation. You cannot negotiate with those you cannot see and you cannot negotiate with those you can see, but still hate you. Chamberlain found that out the hard way. I am glad Bush is our President, and unless the dems nominate someone that is willing to fight for this country, I will not even consider their candidacy. I have voted for dems in the past, but do not foresee voting for them in the present.
I see 2004 as potentially being a horrible year.........the terrorists will strike again and this time it could make 911 look really small.
Hopefully Bin Laden will be captured soon so it will all end, but that does not look like a big possibility.

One last statement....the economy will recover all 2.5 million jobs plus add millions more before the next economic downturn. If more terrorists incidents occur in this country, then the economic downturn will occur sooner.

 

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Inwood: Actually I believe the German Enigma code was first broken by the Poles in the early 30s. It was only after Germany invaded that the machines and Polish code breakers first went to France and then onto Britian.

The British contribution was to continue the work and break the new codes which the Germans developed. But this work was based on what the Poles had already done.

 

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Inwood: Per BradleeM's post it might be interesting to see who on this particular thread has actually fought for their country or at least served in their countries military.

But, to be fair, I guess there are other ways to serve your country, to fight for someone's life and freedom, so if you were in something like the Peace Corp., Americorp or some type of community service like a suicide hotline I think that should qualify also.

I can say I haven't. However I was "rushed" by the Air Force when I was in High School for their officer's training school. Apparently those tests we took showed I had leadership capabilities (who knew). But my father and I both knew I wasn't suited to a "hurry up and wait" type of life. As it is, it sometimes takes all I've got not to push people off the sidewalks here in New York to get them out of my way.

And Raal Lexx, even if you won't spill it on this thread, can you let me know what you would have said about not speaking Russian? I always love to find out new things.

 

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jerkin4-10: TSB...you are real good about quoting facts...and i see you have most of them correct...yep...the CIA has done some really shitty, embarassing things...and i suppose the upper levels of the government at some point has had to know about most of what goes on...and approve...or maybe turn a blind eye to it...unfortunately there have been some bad mistakes made...the worst of which was in my opinion the first...the CIA aided coup of the Iranian democratic government to install the shah back to power...if that blunder wouldnt have been made...maybe this arguement wouldnt be taking place...
but it did...and we are...you and your buddies from across the pond are real good about throwing rocks from afar....and sitting there like your government has no faults...and it really pisses me off...the brits have a real problem too...about thinking they own the damn world...until enough people finally got mad enough and kicked your asses out...i remember a quote from history class in grade school...'the sun never sets on the british empire'...ill bet all those campaigns were bloodless, humane, efforts by you brits to 'better the world' , 'bring civilization to the savages'...or maybe...loot, rape and plunder with impunity...just because you could...the way i look at it is...errors have been made...at all periods of time...bad judgement, miscalculation, greed, lies...the world has tons of horrible people in it...that would love to cause as much destruction and chaos as possible...choosing any means necessary...at any cost...
but one thing i know...is the war on terror is a just one...
and the terrorists got away with it for some time...with our wimpy former president...but this one aint playin...and its about time...