One step closer to banning abortion?

AlteredEgo

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Webster said:
_______________________________
With only people with the financial means having babies, there would be little or no need for the welfare glut.
I respect your opinion.
There's no need to insult me..........

BTW, I can't understand why many women think that men should have no say in the matter.

I'm not talking abouut welfare. I'm talking about the beaureaus of child welfare, each state has a BCW or some similar set of initials, an agency which places children in foster care, oversees adoptions, removes children from abusive situations, an so on and so forth.

I didn't call you any names, or insult you. I merely issued a wake up call. You either wake up, or hit snooze, your choice. This is not a perfect world where every little baby gets the love and resources he needs. If you felt insulted, that indicates a personal problem. I am uninvolved.
 

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Man I love it when Bronx kicks a little ass!, I know this post is serious, I know its important to a lot of people but you gotta give respect to the strong willed woman.
 

Webster

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BronxBombshell said:
I'm not talking abouut welfare. I'm talking about the beaureaus of child welfare, each state has a BCW or some similar set of initials, an agency which places children in foster care, oversees adoptions, removes children from abusive situations, an so on and so forth.

I didn't call you any names, or insult you. I merely issued a wake up call. You either wake up, or hit snooze, your choice. This is not a perfect world where every little baby gets the love and resources he needs. If you felt insulted, that indicates a personal problem. I am uninvolved.
______________________________
It's up to the recipient of your comments to decide if he has been insulted. You did indeed insult me in your last post and you have just insulted me again.

From your original post, it would seem that your boyfriend has learned from his previous behavior and has the good sense to not want to bring any more children into this world for whom he does not have sufficient resources to properly raise.

You have stated that abortion is "unethical, murderous, and and abomination". Statistics show that the vast majority of Americans disagree with you.

Welfare is welfare regardless of how it is titled. And, my taxes end up paying for it.

If you are against abortion, that is your own personal decision. I hope that you can afford to raise the children on your own.

I want all children to have the best upbringing that money can buy.
It's my opinion that, in all fairness to the children, only people who can afford it, should have children.

You are correct that this is not a perfect world where all children get the love and resources they need. That is exactly why I would not bring a child into this world if I could not afford to do so. And I advocate everyone else to do the same.
 

Freddie53

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Webster said:
______________________________
I want all children to have the best upbringing that money can buy.
It's my opinion that, in all fairness to the children, only people who can afford it, should have children.

You are correct that this is not a perfect world where all children get the love and resources they need. That is exactly why I would not bring a child into this world if I could not afford to do so. And I advocate everyone else to do the same.
While, I am not interesting in getting into the little spat between Bronx and Webster, I have to agree with the last part of what Webster said.

I am not pro-abortion, I am pro-choice. There is a vast difference. I think that the issue of what to do with a pregnancy is between the woman, the doctor, and her god if she has one. A spiritual advisor and father can also be invited by the woman if she so chooses t do so.

Quite frankly, it isn't anybody else's damn business. Sure people can express opinions in general how they feel about the subject. But in the end, the choice should belong to the woman who is pregnant. If her god doesn't like it, that god can take it up with the woman without anybody else's help. If her god can't do that, then what pray tell, is any revelance about that god in the woman's life anyway.

I have been fixed, I can't father children anymore. So unless a pregnant woman asks my advice, it isn't any of my damn business.
 

madame_zora

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People laugh at me for suggesting couples TALK about sex before they do it, "Why not just let nature take it's course and everything will be hunky-dorey" attitudes make me want to vomit, profusely.

If a WOMAN is against abortion, she knows that before she ever fucks a man. Period. IF she chooses to have sex, a MAN should in no way be responsible for HER personal opinions! This is bizzarre to me, and I find it disgusting that women claim to want to be respected as equals on one hand, but still expect men to pay for dates and support their accidental children (whether they want to or not). Hell, there's plenty of women who get pregnant on purpose to try to hook the man into a relationship. Oh, that's unpleasant? Why don't we just not talk about that then. Fuck, I know at least three women who have done that, and it makes me hate the human race.

Final analysis:

IF you're against abortion, then it's YOUR responsibility to stand up for YOUR beliefs, no one else's! NO ONE owes you financial support for YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS! Yes, it's a child not a belief, YOU better remember that before YOU spread your legs. Takes two to tango? Pick someone who thinks like you, or STOP FUCKING. Naughty is the only woman on here that advocated a woman taking responsibility for her own morals. Kudos to you girl.

If you're against abortion, DON'T HAVE ONE. That doesn't give you the right to impose your views on others. By a landslide, the reasons for this legislation are religous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know someone's going to pop out of the woodwork to assure me that they are only moral, but it will be an uphill battle convincing me that most morals are not based on religion. The pro-lifers who are NOT religous are the extreme minority. Yes they exist, but so do 12" dicks- just very rare.

I hate our pass-the-buck society where people feel it is acceptable to pass laws to make other people live their way. What goes on inside other people's homes that is done consentually is NONE OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS, and furthermore I don't care. Horrifying, I know, that we should mind our own business, because then we may actually have to pay our own business some mind. So much more satisfying to judge others and find them lacking than to look hard into our own lives IN SEARCH OF our own flaws to correct. If we did that as a hobby instead, we wouldn't be arguning. Just a thought.



As an aside, I also HATE LIKE FUCKING HELL that the whole world is expected to be non-smoking and G-rated to protect other people's children! Why aren't PARENTS responsible for monitoring what their kids do? Oh, I see, it's okay to limit MY rights so some lazy bitch won't have to PAY ATTENTION to what her kids watch on tv or on the computer. :rolleyes: I hate bad parents.
 

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Zora, it is funny you would bring up the one thing that I forgot to put in my post here and that was the religious issue.

It boils down to this. The ones that are adamently opposed to abortion believe that at conception a soul from God is given right then. And if a fetus self aborts three hours after conception then there will be a baby in heaven. So for those of that faith and thought, abortion is murder. That folks IS RELIGION pure and simple. I am devoutly religious and a Christian at that. But this is fostering religious beliefs on others. Why not the Jehovahs Witness say that no one can get a blood transfusion because it send the person to hell in a hand basket. Or the group that beliefts all modern medicenes are sinful and God said don't take them. Or the person who believes it is morally wrong to cut on the human body for any reason. And the group that believes that vaccines are from the devil.

That would shut down modern medicene completely. Deaths would skyrocket. Disease would be rampant. No, we should not base something like this on religion. No no but hell no. I might decide that God said every person should be terminated on their 60th birthday. Give us a break. Abortion is a religious issue and a religious issue only.

I'm with you Jana on this. As well as the other issue you brought up. Women do have to take responsibilities for their actions.
 

AlteredEgo

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madame_zora said:
People laugh at me for suggesting couples TALK about sex before they do it, "Why not just let nature take it's course and everything will be hunky-dorey" attitudes make me want to vomit, profusely.

If a WOMAN is against abortion, she knows that before she ever fucks a man. Period. IF she chooses to have sex, a MAN should in no way be responsible for HER personal opinions! This is bizzarre to me, and I find it disgusting that women claim to want to be respected as equals on one hand, but still expect men to pay for dates and support their accidental children (whether they want to or not). Hell, there's plenty of women who get pregnant on purpose to try to hook the man into a relationship. Oh, that's unpleasant? Why don't we just not talk about that then. Fuck, I know at least three women who have done that, and it makes me hate the human race.

Final analysis:

IF you're against abortion, then it's YOUR responsibility to stand up for YOUR beliefs, no one else's! NO ONE owes you financial support for YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS! Yes, it's a child not a belief, YOU better remember that before YOU spread your legs. Takes two to tango? Pick someone who thinks like you, or STOP FUCKING. Naughty is the only woman on here that advocated a woman taking responsibility for her own morals. Kudos to you girl.

What am I? Chopped liver? I specifically said that I talk to my guys about this before we have sex, and after we discuss disease control. Any man who has ever had sex with me has known in advance that I neither believe in abortions nor adoption, and I have no idea why so many women are afraid to be firm about this. Remember my booty call with the three out-of-wedlock children, and all the fancy gear? Every once in a while he reminds me that if we get a surprise he wants me to have an abortion of put the infant into the system. I always remind him that i already told him we'd go to court to establish how much child support he'd be expected to contribute and to set up a visitation schedule if he'd like some involvement (he's not much for involvement) in the upbringing. I'd want our baby to know his or her brothers and extended family. I find that the conversations are easy enough to have, just like my semi-annual reminders to all my boys to get me their updated test results so we can keep on keepin' on. When I was 15, my mother told me that if I got pregnant I'd have to have an abortion or give up the child. I'm no longer 15, and my mother is long dead. I have made a decision, I have made it plain to those who wish to be in my life, and anyone who doesn't like it can lose my number. They all know this. I don't know why more people find this simplle series of chats which protect their bodies, their lives, and their futures harder than playing Russian roulette with their bodies. I don't know, Jana.
 

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Bronx, I applaud you highly for having those conversations! Believe me, it's far more than most women do. I don't have a great deal of respect for "most women" though, as you may have gathered.

Your decisions about your body and your wishes are clear enough, and they have nothing to do with me, but don't you find it even slightly uncomfortable that a man has clearly stated his wish NOT to be a father, yet you clearly told him he WOULD be if it went that way? Like I said, your decisions, but I'd prefer to find partners that agree with my point of view on this, it seems unfair to force someone into a role they've been honest enough to state they don't want.

It's true that he could also choose not to have sex with you, knowing how you feel about this, but that's exactly what I was talking about. If women ARE really equal and want OUR views to be respected, don't we owe that to men as well? If a man comes right out and says he doesn't want to be a father and would want an accidental pregnancy aborted, why is it still okay to force parenthood on him? At that point, for me, my only decision would be whether or not I could have sex with him under those terms, not whether I should ignore his wishes to push my view.
 

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Pirate Wench said:
Sovereign land isn't subject to state laws and a reservation in SD is opening an abortion clinic.

Anyone can go there....you don't have to be a resident of the reservation.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12101999

Good for them! This is what happens when sane, level-headed women are put in positions of power.
 

AlteredEgo

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madame_zora said:
Bronx, I applaud you highly for having those conversations! Believe me, it's far more than most women do. I don't have a great deal of respect for "most women" though, as you may have gathered.

Your decisions about your body and your wishes are clear enough, and they have nothing to do with me, but don't you find it even slightly uncomfortable that a man has clearly stated his wish NOT to be a father, yet you clearly told him he WOULD be if it went that way? Like I said, your decisions, but I'd prefer to find partners that agree with my point of view on this, it seems unfair to force someone into a role they've been honest enough to state they don't want.


It's true that he could also choose not to have sex with you, knowing how you feel about this, but that's exactly what I was talking about. If women ARE really equal and want OUR views to be respected, don't we owe that to men as well? If a man comes right out and says he doesn't want to be a father and would want an accidental pregnancy aborted, why is it still okay to force parenthood on him? At that point, for me, my only decision would be whether or not I could have sex with him under those terms, not whether I should ignore his wishes to push my view.
I'm not forcing him. The offer is always on the table for me to go home. I almost never invite myself over either. If you invite a woman over for the express purpose of having sex with her, and she's already told you that if that sex results in a pregnancy, you will be a father, and that you can choose your level of physical involvement with your new child, but that a judge will choose your level of financial involvement, you are agreeing to her terms.

I'm not pushing my view on him any more than I'm pushing sex on him. He knows my position. The first time we talked about this, we ended up just cuddling and going to sleep. The next morning, he made his decision by penetrating me. He's not the most responsible person I've ever met. But he's tons of fun to be around, I always learn something amazing from him, and he's great in bed. At least I've been honest with him from the word go. I wonder what the three women he's fatherd boys with told him.
 

AlteredEgo

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Webster said:
______________________________
It's up to the recipient of your comments to decide if he has been insulted. You did indeed insult me in your last post and you have just insulted me again.

Still sounds personal. Let me know when I start making inapropriate ethnic jokes. Or make some more of your own. Whatever.

Webster said:
From your original post, it would seem that your {friend} has learned from his previous behavior and has the good sense to not want to bring any more children into this world for whom he does not have sufficient resources to properly raise.

He has the resources, just not the desire. But he obviously wants to fuck me (and other women) more than he wants to make sure that he's never a father again. I recently found out about a third baby. His kids are 10, 8, and 1. He still drives a two-seater, and he still has two motorcycles. This year he was only able to get a custom chinchilla jacket. He didn't get himself any new jewelry. The man has a voracious sexual appetite, and is extraordinarily self-absorbed. But he'll never have any trouble drawing women to himself, and he'll never not take care of his sons. Financially. I suspect that the speech he gave me is just something he says in the hopes the woman will bite. If he was serious, he wouldn't proceed.


Webster said:
You have stated that abortion is "unethical, murderous, and and abomination". Statistics show that the vast majority of Americans disagree with you.

You are 100%correct about that.

Webster said:
Welfare is welfare regardless of how it is titled. And, my taxes end up paying for it.

Um... Even wealthy people who abuse their children end up having them removed by this agency. Your taxes are supposed to take care of the utterly defenseless.

Webster said:
If you are against abortion, that is your own personal decision. I hope that you can afford to raise the children on your own.

I don't know if I could right now or not. I don't know how much it costs. I know my mother was sick all the time, and as a result our money only went so far. my mother worked from the time she was 16 years old. She was a college graduate. When her sick leave ran out and she was still rehabilitating after losing a limb and suffering two (more) heart attacks, we went on public assistance for almost a year. I'm sure glad it was available. I was glad for free breakfast and luch at school, too. Oh, my father? He once gave me his tips for pocket money. I bought him tons of stuff when he was dying. I have no idea how much money my mother spent on food, clothes, toiletries, housing, transportation, my education, my vacations, my summer camps, my friends' and relatives' gifts from me, my pets, and my books and toys and the ice cream truck, or how much I impacted the price of her health insurance. Whatever it was, she found a way to pay it, mostly on her own. It kind of sucked. I think she did it that way because she hated my father. I was their second surprise. I have no idea what became of the first one. I only found out a week ago. Whatever did happen, my father charged $300 to my mother's credit card and split. So ends a decade of love and romance. :rolleyes: I don't know what it costs, and I hope not to find out too soon. So I take precautions. But if it happens, I will be a mother, a very good one, like my own mother was. There will be one difference. My child's father will pay his share, whoever he turns out to be, he will already have known that before going in, as it were. I have the social security numbers of about half the men I've slept with. People trust me. I say, "What's your social security number? Mine is, ***-**-****." They look at me funny, and then offer up the digits. Obviously people trust me to be honest. I say, "If we get preggers, I'm keeping it, and you have to help me financially, and I'd like you to help me emotionally, and practically too, but those last two will be up to you. Also, I would like to have our child welcomed to get to know your family." They agree or I go home. I have yet to be sent home. I also have yet to be not invited back.

Webster said:
I want all children to have the best upbringing that money can buy.
It's my opinion that, in all fairness to the children, only people who can afford it, should have children.

And then, when he woke up, the real world was waiting. It was ugly, it was poor, and it was crumbling.

Webster said:
You are correct that this is not a perfect world where all children get the love and resources they need. That is exactly why I would not bring a child into this world if I could not afford to do so. And I advocate everyone else to do the same.

You are right. People who can not afford to have children should not. It would be nice if emergency contraception were available without a prescription. It would be nice if all high schools gave out free condoms instead of pretending that teenagers do not have sex. It would be nice if every woman on the pill remembered to take it at the same time every day without fail. It would be awesome if all children were born to intelligent people with the time and financial resources to properly raise a human being. All these things would be sweet. Unfortunately, at this juncture, that world can only be seen by people who have their head in the sand.
 

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Chuck64 said:
Freddie - You are a very wise man.

I heard this finally got signed in to law in South Dakota. I hope it's challenged and gets up to the supreme court as soon as possible.

I find it odd... no hypocritical, when I see banter about sparing the life of Moussaoui... yet we get this sort of uprooar about abortion. When I see Berkeley libs in the media spouting "the United States is above death penalty, despite what this man did".. is laughable.

Why do libs want to save and protect the guilty (terrorists) and kill the innocent (unborn babies). And spare me the technicalities, because any logical argument will find the 995 argument why Moussaoui should live CERTAINLY hold true for unborn children.

And by the way, I'm unbiased on anti-life/pro-choice... I just call hypocrisy when I see it.
 

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BronxBombshell said:
Still sounds personal. Let me know when I start making inapropriate ethnic jokes. Or make some more of your own. Whatever.



He has the resources, just not the desire. But he obviously wants to fuck me (and other women) more than he wants to make sure that he's never a father again. I recently found out about a third baby. His kids are 10, 8, and 1. He still drives a two-seater, and he still has two motorcycles. This year he was only able to get a custom chinchilla jacket. He didn't get himself any new jewelry. The man has a voracious sexual appetite, and is extraordinarily self-absorbed. But he'll never have any trouble drawing women to himself, and he'll never not take care of his sons. Financially. I suspect that the speech he gave me is just something he says in the hopes the woman will bite. If he was serious, he wouldn't proceed.




You are 100%correct about that.



Um... Even wealthy people who abuse their children end up having them removed by this agency. Your taxes are supposed to take care of the utterly defenseless.



I don't know if I could right now or not. I don't know how much it costs. I know my mother was sick all the time, and as a result our money only went so far. my mother worked from the time she was 16 years old. She was a college graduate. When her sick leave ran out and she was still rehabilitating after losing a limb and suffering two (more) heart attacks, we went on public assistance for almost a year. I'm sure glad it was available. I was glad for free breakfast and luch at school, too. Oh, my father? He once gave me his tips for pocket money. I bought him tons of stuff when he was dying. I have no idea how much money my mother spent on food, clothes, toiletries, housing, transportation, my education, my vacations, my summer camps, my friends' and relatives' gifts from me, my pets, and my books and toys and the ice cream truck, or how much I impacted the price of her health insurance. Whatever it was, she found a way to pay it, mostly on her own. It kind of sucked. I think she did it that way because she hated my father. I was their second surprise. I have no idea what became of the first one. I only found out a week ago. Whatever did happen, my father charged $300 to my mother's credit card and split. So ends a decade of love and romance. :rolleyes: I don't know what it costs, and I hope not to find out too soon. So I take precautions. But if it happens, I will be a mother, a very good one, like my own mother was. There will be one difference. My child's father will pay his share, whoever he turns out to be, he will already have known that before going in, as it were. I have the social security numbers of about half the men I've slept with. People trust me. I say, "What's your social security number? Mine is, ***-**-****." They look at me funny, and then offer up the digits. Obviously people trust me to be honest. I say, "If we get preggers, I'm keeping it, and you have to help me financially, and I'd like you to help me emotionally, and practically too, but those last two will be up to you. Also, I would like to have our child welcomed to get to know your family." They agree or I go home. I have yet to be sent home. I also have yet to be not invited back.



And then, when he woke up, the real world was waiting. It was ugly, it was poor, and it was crumbling.



You are right. People who can not afford to have children should not. It would be nice if emergency contraception were available without a prescription. It would be nice if all high schools gave out free condoms instead of pretending that teenagers do not have sex. It would be nice if every woman on the pill remembered to take it at the same time every day without fail. It would be awesome if all children were born to intelligent people with the time and financial resources to properly raise a human being. All these things would be sweet. Unfortunately, at this juncture, that world can only be seen by people who have their head in the sand.
_____________________________
Someone has kidnapped the lovely, brilliant,
sensible, BronxBombshell and replaced her
with an imposter.





What?! What ethnic joke?
 

Freddie53

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faceking said:
I find it odd... no hypocritical, when I see banter about sparing the life of Moussaoui... yet we get this sort of uprooar about abortion. When I see Berkeley libs in the media spouting "the United States is above death penalty, despite what this man did".. is laughable.

Why do libs want to save and protect the guilty (terrorists) and kill the innocent (unborn babies). And spare me the technicalities, because any logical argument will find the 995 argument why Moussaoui should live CERTAINLY hold true for unborn children.

And by the way, I'm unbiased on anti-life/pro-choice... I just call hypocrisy when I see it.
Oh really now! Since when does Moussaoui have anything to do with abortion? So some think his life should be spared. Those same people may or may not be for or against abortion. The Roman Catholic Church which almost a 1/4 of the world is a member of is both against abortion and against capital punishment. They are on the side of life in both caes. Many people who are ranting so about abortion taking a life are jumping at a chance to kill through capital punishment even a teenager who commits certain crimes.

Abortion is still a religious issue. That is calling a spade a spade as well. Does a fetus less than a week old have a soul that is eternal? We know that Moussaoui does, according to Christina dogma. But not all Christians would say an unborn fetus has a soul. And the state is totally neutral on religion, souls, and the afterlife.

One definition of life is a organism that doesn't have to life off the life of another. A fetus is totally dependent on the mother. It is a group of cells all right and human tissue as well. But so is the gall bladder and we remove it when it is necessary. Not everyone agrees that a sperm and egg that have united is right then a human being, but rather a one cell organism that has potential to be one. So where does that maigical moment happen when it is human with a soul? Let that be a religious decision and leave the state out of it.

i'm not so sure that we have any business killing adult people. But then the state has that right to do so. And if the court that decides this is not a kangaro court then it is legal. It can be a religious issue to oppose that as well, or support it as well. There is religious feeling about capital punishment on both sides.

But please spare us the using a different issue that has as many differences as this one does and putting all of us in a camp that we may not belong in.

I for one deplore the use of capital punishment, but I think it is legal and constitutional. I am not going to fight it as my reasons for being against capital punishment are religous reasons, not legal reasons. As I see it, capital punishment interupts God's opportunities to reach this person. That is it. That is not a good enough argument for me to go and try to make the rest of the United States go along with me as it is totally religious. And I am a very strong proponent of religious freedom for those who agree with me and for those who DISAGREE with me.

And one thing about religion and those who have religious beliefs: They don't have to make sense to anyone except the person who believes them.
 

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Pirate Wench said:
Sovereign land isn't subject to state laws and a reservation in SD is opening an abortion clinic.

Anyone can go there....you don't have to be a resident of the reservation.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12101999
And has been predicted right here at the good ole LPSG, plans are underway to circumvent the new South Dakota law right there in South Dakota. No real surprise here. And for those just tuning in to how things are done here at the good ole US of A. Native Americans have "sovereign land" in many states including the state I live in and every state surrounding it.

Translation: The Native Americans will have abortion clinics in practically every state in the union if Roe vs. Wade is oversturned just by this often overlooked stlipulation on sovereignty for Native Americans.

We may chose who does the aborotions. We aren't likely to change who gets them.

If you dont' believe it look at the states that have laws against gambling except....on "sovereign Indian/Native American" land where certain US and state laws do not apply.
 

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BronxBombshell said:
You know what I'm talking about. Let's not hijack this thread.
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You're the one making the accusation.
This really bothers me a lot.
Seriously.
 

Webster

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BronxBombshell said:
Read your own history. I already called you on this in private.
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...and then, you made no reference as to what you were talking about. When I replied to your PM, I asked you what it was that troubled you because I truly wanted to understand what you were talking about. You ignored my PM.

????????:confused: