Openmindedness And Interpersonal Drama

Discussion in 'Relationships, Discrimination, and Jealousy' started by D_Martin van Burden, Aug 28, 2005.

  1. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    While I would agree that people tend to appreciate others who are openminded and can accept people for their differences, more often than not, there are those out there who make being openminded very difficult.

    Don't get me wrong. I like standing out. I like being different. I just don't appreciate when people get the wrong idea about me -- sexuality-wise, personality-wise, etc. -- based off of snap judgments. And although I tend to be openminded to other people and let them be whoever they want, it seems that I run into a fair number of people who won't return that courtesy.

    So, the question is, what to do? How do you all handle people who give you grief just because you like being who you are? And how do you deal with people who won't express their differences with you, only resulting to that behind-your-back crap?
     
  2. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    Easy. I post my replies to you here at LPSG.
     
  3. headbang8

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    Don't know if I'm gonna answer your question, Dee. But this sort of stuff looms huge in my life, too. And even though it's pretty basic, I haven't got a clue how to deal, even though I'm in my late 40's.

    Maybe the answer is so simple we overlook it.

    Human nature makes snap judgements about people. That's highly adaptive behavour. Back in more primitive times, if you meet a stranger coming down the road, you needed to decide, in a split second, if he be friend or foe. To do this, we pick up on all kind of cues that neither we nor the sender are aware of.

    Fast forward to the modern day. Complex social situations, fluid roles. Individuals routinely hold many different "tribal" affiliations, often competing, where there used to be just one. We find it hard to know what's in our own self-interest. Who's harmful, who's harmless, who's helpful, who's a waste of time? The friend-or-foe instinct goes haywire.

    People often misjudge us, and we misjudge people. We complain that it's harder to connect, relationships are more stressful, and people are more fucked up.

    Why? Even though most of us know the merit of an open mind, our minds are programmed to close as fast as possible, in the name of self-preservation. As a human being, it takes a lot of work to keep an open mind. Only the most virtuous amongst us resist our visceral reactions, and manage it.

    So, people are going to make snap judgements about you. Especially if there's something surprising or different. Whether they mean to or not, they're working out if you're a threat. I suspect that they really can't work you out, and so default to feeling threatened.

    In the words of the art critic Robert Hughes, you're The Shock of the New.

    Do like all shockingly new artists do--even if your only work of art is the way you live your life. From Wolfgang "Too Many Notes" Mozart, to Pablo "Three Tits" Picasso, to Damien "Half a Cow" Hirst. Tell your critics to go fuck themselves.

    (That's really what I wanted to say at the start. But couldn't resist a good liberal-arts-type wank.)

    Does Dee want to close his own mind in retalliation? Well, it'll help you tell people to go fuck themselves. You don't want to be so open-minded that you ignore your instincts.

    As Groucho said, "There goes a man with an open mind. I can feel the draft from here."

    Gossip behind your back? In our fathers' and grandfathers' day, it would be fisticuffs outside the local pub. Count your blessings. And be happy. That'll really piss them off.

    Love ya,

    hb8
     
  4. Lex

    Lex
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    Dee--I tend to believe that most people are supremely intimidated by those of us who are truly comfortable in our own skin and who speak and live with conviction. I believe that the best reponse for those who can not and/or will not accpet you for who you are is to unapologentically continue being you and not give a fuck outwardly (even though you might

    People love company, and the insecure masses want you to be as timid and group-think minded as they are. Open minds are really rare--so cherish those that you and encounter while taking solace in the fact that most of the close-minded among you wish they had your confidence and openess deep down.
     
  5. steve319

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    Dee, between your topic and your blog entry, I think I'm seeing something of where you're going here.

    HB8 has it together, doesn't he? The bit about these categorizations being a sort of social shorthand really rings true (background in sociology, HB?). For a lot of humanity, that tendency to box people in just makes life easier. Less thinking involved (and really, let's admit it, we all are looking for ways to make life simpler sometimes).

    What you wrote (in the blog) about how being Mr. Laidback Openguy has gained you exactly nothing in your interpersonal relationships (other than lots of opportunity to help those wrestling with something big and ugly--more opportunity to GIVE till you're empty) hit me hard. Honesty and openness just aren't as valued in our society as we'd like to think they are. Being a good ear? Always welcomed. Letting your own secret shit out for public consumption? Prepare to be shut down.

    That double standard makes it hard to keep finding the energy and desire to be the sounding board and confessor for the rest of the world's supposed fringe dwellers. But of what use is the alternative? Man, I was raised to be as judgemental and closedminded as possible, and tearing down those habits is one of the life accomplishments of which I'm most proud. No, it's not an easy road to walk, especialy when environmental issues make you the social outcast in many ways, but consider the other path? Living your life spewing condemnation and judgement, denying a legitimate part of yourself, remaining smug in your own "rightness" without regard to the paths walked by anyone different from yourself? Hell, Dee, you couldn't do that if you tried.

    People let us down. That's the way life is. And we're no different: I let people down, you let people down. We're always going to run into people who aren't equipped to handle what we're dishing out or to connect with where we're living our lives. Or they aren't equipped YET. Maybe that's our greater role--to drag their asses (kicking and screaming, if need be) to the next step of their personal evolution?

    Or maybe we're destined to be taken into the town square and stoned to death. I don't know. I know that being the most enviably cool and grouded guy I can be sometimes just isn't enough to clear the path for me in regards to my living outside the norm.

    Walking the road less taken is not an enviable task, and it makes life its own kind of hell sometimes, but we all know it's just what we have to do. It's the hand you've been dealt, man. Gotta play with it.

    Just know that in terms of your own life, you make the rules for the game. We just have to work on teaching our playmates to play by those rules.

    :pals:
     
  6. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Easy. I post my replies to you here at LPSG.
    [post=338706]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]
    *clears throat*
    Go fuck yourself, Jacinto. :evilgrin:

    (...thanks for the wake up call, HB.)
     
  7. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Moving on...

    Heh. Thanks for your replies, gang.

    :grouphug:

    I suppose it uplifts me a bit to know that grown men who still have a number of years than me are, in some ways, grappling with the very same issue. Never mind that most of you, even the ones who haven't responded yet, have still gotten over a few of those Eriksonian identity contests like marriage and fertility and generativity and stuff like that. I'm in awe.

    It's just tiring, I guess.

    It's up to the guys like you and me and us to become educators. We've got to wake people up, snap people out of those judgments, get others to think a little bit differently. And wouldn't you know just how tiring that task can be?

    The easy part is being myself, sure. I can't help it. And I'm not gonna change for anyone. And hell -- "not changing" isn't all that difficult either. It's being able to do that and weather the storm of the judgmental and teach the judgmental who want to come around -- all that put together -- is tiring.

    And I suppose it's only human to admit that people, especially openminded people, have to derive some sort of pleasure out of waking up people from their unconscious hate and loathing (just like I get a kick helping people through their problems). People appreciate others who appreciate themselves, like their qualities, find joy in their companionship. And certainly people want that validation from the very others whom they hold close and care about the most.

    It's easy to disregard. It's easy to act like nothing's wrong. It's easy to stiffen your lip. I guess I just needed to feel okay with, you know, after putting up with enough crap and realizing that I am weathered in some ways. Will I come around? Of course. First and foremost, I have to be okay with experiencing a "trough" in my emotions. Can't be sunny and happy all the time, can't be carefree all the time. And who the fuck is really happy and up and sunny and all that shit 24-7, anyway?

    Lex: You remind me of a passage I read in The Zen of Oz about how there are some folks who are so mired in guilt and hatred that they just want to drag everyone else down with 'em.

    All in all, if Jacinto can make a (not even funny, witty, or useful) wisecrack and I can respond with an :evilgrin: then I guess I'm on the right track -- at least around here.

    I suppose I need to recharge and maybe talk this out some more. Or maybe I should just do what I really want to do and call people out and confront them immediately if they've got unpleasantries to share behind my back.

    One thing I readily admit, no matter how small of frame I may be, my mouth and wit really intimidate the hell out of people. Most tend to back down and stop the gossip altogether if I just make it known, and perhaps I'll feel better if I am more reluctant to let things slide. Not every little thing. Just the important ones. Just the important issues.

    In Unrelated News:
    Ok, so I'm watching the E! True Hollywood Story on Paula Abdul. Why does she sound drunk on camera, anyway?
     
  8. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Dee, I let it roll off my back like rain on a duck. I'm a laidback, calm sort who too often trusts others to be as honest as I am only to occasionally find that there are some who just plain don't get it.

    That's okay. I'll outlive them all.
     
  9. steve319

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    Yeah, we all need those times to bitch and moan and blow off steam. That's recuperative time. I'm just now coming up out of "selfish mode" and ready to face fall semester with the energy to keep up the fight.

    I think. ;)

    The boorish masses get us all down from time to time. I wonder why there are so many of them (and why they seem to reproduce with such abandon). And, to tell the truth, sometimes I wonder if it's even worth the energy to fight it (witness the ongoing "race" topic in "et cetera" :eyes: ).

    I think that might be a good way to look at it---the view that so many others are carrying their own baggage and scars and expressing their pain by lashing out at everyone else.

    Well, maybe that p.o.v. will get you through this bout anyway. We'll find another rationalization next time. ;)
     
  10. Lex

    Lex
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    Remember Dee, it's a marathon, not a sprint. The journey to self-fulfillment is a LONG one. You're on the path.
     
  11. DC_DEEP

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    Dee, I have to agree with Lex on this one. In junior high school, I was pretty unpopular - my parents didn't belong to the country club, I didn't wear the "in" clothes, didn't pander to the "popular" kids. I never did allow other peoples' opinions of me shape my self-esteem. Eventually, a few started to realize that I had a lot of strength to resist peer pressure and to dismiss the notions of social popularity - I was just who I was, with no apologies to anyone, and I did well in school. In about 8th or 9th grade, the other kids started seeing me as actually cool, probably because I refused to adhere to the herd mentality. Those who insisted upon being detractors? They were not worth me wasting precious time and energy worrying about them.

    You must learn to be able to pass them by. It does feel difficult at times, but it really is not. Now, in a different part of the country, in a different social climate, at a different age, I am running into the same thing - the gay "A-list" folks here in the Washington DC area. I don't wear Prada, I don't drive a Miata, I don't live in Dupont Circle, I don't hang out at the "proper" clubs. The interesting thing is, those who don't want to associate with me because I don't fit their mold are generally those who really have nothing of substance to offer as friends. Fuck 'em. In my advanced old age of 46 (that's 657 in queer years) I have no difficulty telling someone to their face "You are a shallow, worthless excuse for a human. Talk about me if that's the only way you can feel good about yourself, but please neither claim nor attempt to be my friend or even my acquaintance. I will return the favor."

    Hope this helps at least a little.
     
  12. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    Some people caught my point. Does this sound familiar? "Some other members and I were gossiping behind the scenes and decided that Jacinto must be a fake. So I took it upon myself to investigate him. I couldn't find out anything about his offline life, so I knew that he must be a phony. I don't mind standing by myself on this one, and I'm glad that I did it! Good on me! Big shout-outs to so and so!" And now you want to know how we handle grief from people who don't want us to like who we are and who resort to 'behind-your-back crap'? I can't agree with Steve when he wrote:

    You do so withouttrying, and do it quite well. Of course, Steve doesn't notice it: he's not one of your favourite targets. We all like to think we're open-minded, but we're human and have blind spots when it comes to people we don't like. That was my point. You were complaining about people who do the exact things that I perceive you to be guilty of. Note that I said "I perceive". You will see things differently. I have been pretty open here. Yes, I misrepresented where I live in a misguided attempt to protect something that I want to keep private, but I am happy enough with being me that I don't feel the need to hide who I am. Remember that you're the one who once told me, "I don't know why you need to act like you're something more than just a stripper." You're not someone who gives me grief for being happy with myself? Oh, please. And the 'go-behind-your back' crap: you could've asked me to point you in the direction of evidence of who I am, and I could've provided you with quite a few site URL's that would've, at the very least, confirmed my existence. Of course, knowing now what you might've done with it, I'm glad that you didn't ask. So you tried 'investigating' me yourself with less than sufficient information. You didn't find anything on me, but you sent the message that snooping on someone is okay. The are some would-be sleuths here that are better at it, and they picked up on enough clues to find out things about me that I'd prefer people not find out. Two lurkers here actually called a cousin of mine looking for me! Dee, you don't leave much of a trail, and there's not much to be found googling the name Dee Hill, and even less under Dion Hill, but there are enough clues out there to lead the dedicated snoops right to your front doorstep. Then you'd know how I feel about 'behind-your-back crap'.

    Can you really not see why I find you judgmental? Really?

    <!--QuoteBegin-DeeBlackthorne

    Or maybe I should just do what I really want to do and call people out and confront them immediately if they&#39;ve got unpleasantries to share behind my back.[/quote]

    You&#39;ve admitted to sharing &#39;unpleasantries&#39; about me behind my back with Monty and who knows who else ... yet you want to call others out for doing what you yourself have admitted to doing, and were glad about it?

    Well, I&#39;ve said my peace, knowing that it will fall on deaf and smug ears. So, Dee, go fuck yourself as well.
     
  13. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    I wrote what I wrote about openmindedness because it was on my mind, and some of the more gracious patrons on the site wanted to offer some feedback, some guidance, some support. And like a good pair of boxer briefs, God damn it, these guys were there for me and wanted to lend an ear, hear me out. And I&#39;m really thankful for that because some of the wise words on here can readily translate into my real life. Not that LPSG or some of its fine folks aren&#39;t real in the metaphysical sense, but...

    You just get a lot more out of advice if you can connect it to your own feelings, experiences, how you see things.

    Your mini-tirades notwithstanding, I&#39;ve found this thread to be very helpful, warm, and insightful -- even with your yammering.

    And I won&#39;t let you ruin it for me, Jacinto. I won&#39;t give you the satisfaction. In fact, I&#39;ll do everything... no... I&#39;ll let you make an ass out of yourself. You&#39;re doing a terrific job right now, and I&#39;ll just let you keep at it. And no matter how many times you hijack a thread just to make a slant about me, you can never, ever, ever, ever take back what you&#39;ve done or said... undo your fraudulence.

    You made your own fate. I can&#39;t be held responsible for your poor choices.

    I would try to learn something from you now, bro, but all you&#39;ve shown me are bitterness, trifle, and frustration. What greater purposes have your postings served here, man? Hmmm? I&#39;m still looking...

    "We&#39;re human and have blind spots..."
    "happy enough with being me..."

    Not bad.

    But hey, it sounds like you really got some damage control ahead of you. Sorry for your grief. Better come up with some quick doozies to head off the relations, eh? And for record, I left this bullshit behind more than sixty days ago. That was the last of my drama. I don&#39;t accept or take blame any additional responsibility. I fueled some fire, but that flame burned itself out a while back -- at least that&#39;s how I "perceive" it.

    If you&#39;re still knocking flint together, then maybe it&#39;s time to let go, kiddo.

    But hey... in the meantime... just change your avatar. It&#39;ll help.
    *kiss on forehead* :evilgrin:
     
  14. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    DC, that&#39;s really cool of you to add. I&#39;ve seen a few gay male clients at the Center and some of these very same issues of acceptance, support, and trust come up for them, too. I was talking with one guy today actually who said that it&#39;s really distressing to look at advertisements for HIV medication because it conveys this "invincibility" message about the disease -- that it feels really unreal -- one pill a day is gonna make you ok.

    I laughed and said that some straight people probably feel the same way about the genital herpes promos on television.

    But people still get on you about the car you drive, way you dress? I would&#39;ve expected that from folks my age -- oi&#33; -- but I assumed people would wise up shortly thereafter. Some do, and maybe they&#39;re the lucky ones. I kinda pity &#39;em, I guess.
     
  15. madame_zora

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    Wow, what an amazing post.

    I have to admit that I was aghast about the turn of events you chose to post about in your thread about Jacinto. Up until then (over a year) I had not seen a cross word exchanged between the two of you, and had enjoyed many of your posts. But then YOU decided to make a change- unprovoked, uncalled for and unrepentant. If you honestly believe you are "taking the high road" now because you feel DMW has no right to be upset about you and Monty shitting on him, you are in error. That you continue to justify your own bad behavior does not speak well of you as a member of your chosen profession.

    If you really want less drama in you life, you could start by not initialing it&#33; I know, it seems simple, but it works.

    Oh yeah, and when you are wrong, admit it once in a while, it will help people to gain respect for you. There&#39;s no shame in saying "I made a bad judgement call", we all do it, it just means we&#39;re human, but to continue to proclaim pride in a bad judgement reeks of hypocrisy. To point a critical finger at someone YOU have wronged makes you look mean spirited and false. I hope I am getting through.

    I don&#39;t think you are a stupid person, or intrinsically bad at heart, but I do think you lack some self-awareness that would be of benefit.
     
  16. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Good advice. I agree with it. I just don&#39;t agree with squandering it on people who don&#39;t and haven&#39;t earned that respect. When it&#39;s put that way, the notion hardly sounds farfetched or unrealistic. If I may, I think a good number of posts prior to this one would agree.
     
  17. madame_zora

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    Difference- Jacinto apologised for having given the misleading information that *so* incenced you, when he was only trying to protect his privacy, but you have never apologised for your own part, or anything else for that matter, since I&#39;ve been a member here. You never apologised for accusing him about lying about his dick, or for turning loose the would be sleuths on him that called his families&#39; home&#33; That was very bad decision making on your part, and yes- feel free to laugh at me or say I&#39;m just jumping on the bandwagon, but it really hurt me that you would do that. I was "outed" by my infamous snackdud and it did some actual damage to me in real life. I didn&#39;t expect him to apologise, as he&#39;s insane, but I did expect better of you.

    I think a lot of us are able to communicate as well as we do, in part due to the anonymity we enjoy here. We choose our level of revelation. Mine is now an open book but not by choice, I would have much preferred to maintain some privacy, but when everything short of my address was published, there was no point. Why would YOU do that to someone who hadn&#39;t spoken a word to you or about you in over a year? You told me yourself you were just getting your rocks off- Dee, that&#39;s filthy.
     
  18. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    It&#39;s unfortunate that someone in your real life took advantage of your sensitive information and chose to stalk you. I can&#39;t imagine how rough that would be, and I wouldn&#39;t know what to do if I were in your situation back then.

    However, I refuse to take responsibility for "turning loose the would-be sleuths." A mastermind, I am not. I don&#39;t mind-control, trick, or compel anyone to do anything; just like I didn&#39;t trick anyone into turning against Jacinto or give permission for people to act on their own accord. To do so would to insinuate that I&#39;m such a charming and charismatic person that I could make people do things against their will is absolutely off-the-mark.

    And, for that matter, if you&#39;re going to use the "permission / floodgate" argument, then Jacinto is as equally culpable for giving other members of the forum permission to not just fail to disclose, but to lie and misrepresent themselves. I fully agree that people should be the ones to control their level of representation around here.

    As we can see, however, there is an incredibly fine line between failure-to-disclose and lying. "Trolls" aren&#39;t permitted to lie, whether we talk dick stats or pictures. Why should our members not be subject to the same standard of honesty?

    But while we all tend to agree with the goose-gander argument (e.g. holding everyone accountable to the same standards), so long as we all perceive the situation differently, so then will we either have to agree to disagree further (which worked fine for me), or we&#39;ll just have to keep squabbling on a regular basis. I don&#39;t see much more resolution than that because none of us are in a position to "give."

    And until we "give" --

    I&#39;m allowed to be a witch hunter.
    Jacinto can be a decentful, pitiful excuse for a man.
    And you can be a highly unapproachable bitch.
    -- No harm, no foul.
    -- Live and let live.

    But I will end on this note, you two.

    I really wanted to hear more people talk on this thread. I really did. I needed a friendly ear and, obviously, you two don&#39;t qualify. That&#39;s okay. You can say whatever the hell you want about me, and I refuse to get hurt by it.

    Just remember that when you two wanted to start up some asinine responses, you didn&#39;t just threadjack from me. You took something away from Steve, Lex, DC, Pecker, and those who were content to read and just think this over for themselves, even if they didn&#39;t feel comfortable or desirous to add their own two cents.

    You&#39;re right. I am responsible for answering you two bozos and look what happened. Unless someone referees or picks up the slack, this good thread has gone to web waste, and that really sucks...

    I should&#39;ve just ignored you guys. Whether I ignore you jackasses or dignify your petty words and your attempts at ridicule with a response, my respect for anything you have to say and anything you have to offer is practically nonexistent. And while I begrudge no one who finds anything redeeming or likeable in either of you, I would hate to see all that love and positive energy go to waste on bastards who don&#39;t deserve it.

    Now, if you&#39;re done here: Don&#39;t you have a flesh pile to initiate elsewhere? :spank:
     
  19. madame_zora

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    Yeah, I figured as much. No real defense of your own behavior, so just throw insults. I am sure my tenure here has revealed plenty about my character to reveal that I do not lambast anyone without provocation. You did, and continue to act as if it&#39;s okay- it&#39;s not.
    And you can&#39;t read- the stalker HERE gave me problems in real life. When you did that to Jacinto in very much the same manner, it made me feel vulnerable, you were way out of line.
     
  20. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    That it&#39;s only okay to "bother" you once a user has passed the necessary 245-post threshold, and has dedicated at least 10% of his or her posts to flattering you without calling explicit attention to your breasts, right? Check.

    You may not require provocation, but let&#39;s be honest, dear. You hardly give anyone who doesn&#39;t earn your express approval post-haste a chance. Gee golly gosh, I may write people off too, but at least I pretend to be approachable...

    <!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora
    @Aug 30 2005, 01:42 AM
    And you can&#39;t read- the stalker HERE gave me problems in real life. When you did that to Jacinto in very much the same manner, it made me feel vulnerable, you were way out of line.[/quote]Quit making me your stalker by proxy, Jana. I suggest that you confide in a good friend, a loved one, or a therapist if your vulnerability is so acute that it causes you significant distress in other facets of your life.

    Since you didn&#39;t seem too surprised at my last couple of posts, I figure I wouldn&#39;t need to apologize this time around for being and liking who I am.
     
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