Opinons on Bush & Iraq?

1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: 'Clear and present danger'

In short, the inspectors are saying that even if they could stay in Iraq, their work would be a sham. Saddam's deception has defeated their effectiveness. Instead of the inspectors disarming Saddam, Saddam has disarmed the inspectors.

This situation presents a clear and present danger to the stability of the Persian Gulf and the safety of people everywhere. The international community gave Saddam one last chance to resume cooperation with the weapons inspectors. Saddam has failed to seize the chance. And so we had to act and act now. Let me explain why:


First, without a strong inspection system, Iraq would be free to retain and begin to rebuild its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programmes in months, not years.

Second, if Saddam can crippled the weapons inspection system and get away with it, he would conclude that the international community - led by the United States - has simply lost its will. He will surmise that he has free rein to rebuild his arsenal of destruction, and someday - make no mistake - he will use it again as he has in the past.

Third, in halting our air strikes in November, I gave Saddam a chance, not a license. If we turn our backs on his defiance, the credibility of US power as a check against Saddam will be destroyed. We will not only have allowed Saddam to shatter the inspection system that controls his weapons of mass destruction program; we also will have fatally undercut the fear of force that stops Saddam from acting to gain domination in the region.
That is why, on the unanimous recommendation of my national security team - including the vice president, the secretary of defence, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the secretary of state and the national security adviser - I have ordered a strong, sustained series of air strikes against Iraq.

They are designed to degrade Saddam's capacity to develop and deliver weapons of mass destruction, and to degrade his ability to threaten his neighbours. At the same time, we are delivering a powerful message to Saddam. If you act recklessly, you will pay a heavy price. We acted today because, in the judgment of my military advisers, a swift response would provide the most surprise and the least opportunity for Saddam to prepare.

If we had delayed for even a matter of days from Chairman Butler's report, we would have given Saddam more time to disperse his forces and protect his weapons. Also, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins this weekend. For us to initiate military action during Ramadan would be profoundly offensive to the Moslem world and, therefore, would damage our relations with Arab countries and the progress we have made in the Middle East.

That is something we wanted very much to avoid without giving Iraq's a month's head start to prepare for potential action against it.

Finally, our allies, including Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain, concurred that now is the time to strike. I hope Saddam will come into cooperation with the inspection system now and comply with the relevant UN Security Council resolutions. But we have to be prepared that he will not, and we must deal with the very real danger he poses.

'A long-term strategy to contain Iraq'

So we will pursue a long-term strategy to contain Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction and work toward the day when Iraq has a government worthy of its people:


First, we must be prepared to use force again if Saddam takes threatening actions, such as trying to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction or their delivery systems, threatening his neighbours, challenging allied aircraft over Iraq or moving against his own Kurdish citizens. The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction programme, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War.

Second, so long as Iraq remains out of compliance, we will work with the international community to maintain and enforce economic sanctions. Sanctions have cost Saddam more than $120 billion - resources that would have been used to rebuild his military. The sanctions system allows Iraq to sell oil for food, for medicine, for other humanitarian supplies for the Iraqi people. We have no quarrel with them. But without the sanctions, we would see the oil-for-food programme become oil-for-tanks, resulting in a greater threat to Iraq's neighbours and less food for its people.
The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.

The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government - a government ready to live in peace with its neighbours, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.

The decision to use force is never cost-free. Whenever American forces are placed in harm's way, we risk the loss of life. And while our strikes are focused on Iraq's military capabilities, there will be unintended Iraqi casualties.

Indeed, in the past, Saddam has intentionally placed Iraqi civilians in harm's way in a cynical bid to sway international opinion. We must be prepared for these realities. At the same time, Saddam should have absolutely no doubt if he lashes out at his neighbours, we will respond forcefully.

Heavy as they are, the costs of action must be weighed against the price of inaction. If Saddam defies the world and we fail to respond, we will face a far greater threat in the future. Saddam will strike again at his neighbours. He will make war on his own people.

And mark my words, he will develop weapons of mass destruction. He will deploy them, and he will use them. Because we're acting today, it is less likely that we will face these dangers in the future.

Americans won't be distracted

Let me close by addressing one other issue. Saddam Hussein and the other enemies of peace may have thought that the serious debate currently before the House of Representatives would distract Americans or weaken our resolve to face him down. But once more, the United States has proven that although we are never eager to use force, when we must act in America's vital interests, we will do so.

In the century we're leaving, America has often made the difference between chaos and community, fear and hope. Now, in the new century, we'll have a remarkable opportunity to shape a future more peaceful than the past, but only if we stand strong against the enemies of peace.

Tonight, the United States is doing just that.

May God bless and protect the brave men and women who are carrying out this vital mission and their families. And may God bless America.
 
1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: HA! What the hell do you have to say to THAT, eh!?
 
1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: The site given below is the text of the U.N. resolution for a cease-fire of hostilities in Kuwait and Iraw in 1991. Note, this is not a peace treaty announcing the end of war, but a cease fire permitting resumption of hostilities if the conditions are not met. Read the conditions, which were to be met in 15 DAYS, I repeat, 15 DAYS. Were they ever met. No. In fact the removal of U.N. inspectors in 1998. (See the Clinton speech.) Precipitated the mini-conflict of that time. But, the inspectors did not return until 2002, and were never given the cooperation required in the U.N. resolution. Another legitimate reason Bush had to go to war:

http://www.unog.ch/uncc/resolutio/res0687.pdf
 
1

13788

Guest
Javierdude22: But...even besides that..

I dont get it...the BBC is not trutsworthy you claim...but now you quote them to discredit Clinton?

Hm...so that would mean the BBC is right (pun) when discrediting Democrats, but wrong when discrediting your side of the political spectrum?

Oh well...ill just stick to your belief that the BBC is trustworthy and quotable (as you have demonstrated) when talking about Bush. Cuase then I can quote the BBC on a two digit number of White House press reports and State of the Union to exhibit the undemocratic way Bush got an ok for this war.
 
1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: So you consider the BBC website, and the UN website untrustworthy?  Okee dokee...

No, see, I got that info from the BBC because last links I used YOU of all people claimed to be right winged bias.  I got that info from BBC to prove that my info is legit.  They are liberally biased and reported a few years ago on Clinton's speech on WMD, so they'd have no reason to be lying or stretching the truth. On top of everything BBC was merely reporting on an actually QUOTED SPEECH. Clinton really said everything I posted and if you don't believe it, you can find the sound file online.  Get it?

:D
 

jay_too

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Posts
789
Media
0
Likes
5
Points
236
Age
44
Location
CA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Gig..

Several times I have wondered:

"If you really do support making Iraqis safe and bringing democratic ideals and government to squabling Shiites, Kurds, Turkomen, and Sunnis, why aren't you over there helping? The Marines can always use a few good men as could the U.S. Army."

jay
 
1

13788

Guest
mindseye: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#82 date=01/20/04 at 15:54:42]http://www.unog.ch/uncc/resolutio/res0687.pdf[/quote]

[quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#83 date=01/20/04 at 15:55:44]http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Chronology/resolution715.htm[/quote]

Do you pick and choose the UN resolutions that you want? Would you like me to post a few others?
 
1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: By all means, mindseye, post what you want. If you have something that will educate me further, I'd like it see it. But from the research I did, and what I found, it sounds pretty convincing that Saddam gave us plenty of reason to go to war with him. Even Clinton thought there were WMD in '98. No liberals disputed his claims or called him a liar back then, but now they call Bush a liar. Could there be some kind of party power politics coming into play here? Just a thought.
 
1

13788

Guest
roedhunt: Everyone in my family was either in the military, or married to someone in the military. I was in the Army, the rest of them, Air Force. IMHO, I think it should be manditory for both women and men to serve our country for 3 years. There is no other job that gives you a sense of pride and patriotism. Plus the respect you get from civilians is unbeatable...
 

jay_too

Experimental Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2002
Posts
789
Media
0
Likes
5
Points
236
Age
44
Location
CA
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Yea, I think I have to agree that if we are moving into a period of prolonged foreign adventures, military service for all is only fair. I certainly never considered spending a few years in uniform, but in fairness, all should serve.

In recent weeks, I have read that recruitment and re-enlistments for the armed services, the reserves, and National Guard are down due to the strain that the prolonged deployments is having on family and on individuals.

Do I think the draft will be popular? Nah. With all of America's sons and daughters at risk, perhaps our elected officials will be more careful in the rhetoric and decisions that lead to war. Somehow I don't see a large political wing of the Republican Party called "Soccer Moms For War."

jay
 
1

13788

Guest
mindseye: [quote author=jay_too link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#92 date=01/21/04 at 06:12:26]Yea, I think I have to agree that if we are moving into a period of prolonged foreign adventures, military service for all is only fair. I certainly never considered spending a few years in uniform, but in fairness, all should serve.[/quote]

If conscientious objectors could perform some type of alternative civilian service (hospitals, schools, etc.), I'd go along with that. But I'd go to jail before I'd don a military uniform or carry arms.
 
1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: No objectors towards Clinton's WMD speech? No naysayers towards the UN's comprehensive and detailed list of exactly what Saddam did to initiate a conflict since the early 90's? Guess not. No one going to try to spew their mouths off at me while ignoring the blatant facts? Not yet. No one actually going to admit they are wrong and possibley change their viewpoints and opinions accordingly? Probably not. And that's why Liberalism prevails, because even when blatant facts from reliable sources are thrown at you, you still ignore it. So when a Liberal knows they are wrong, they change the subject. Lol.

We know who wrapped this one up quite nicely. :) Man it feels so good to be right, and to be cocky about it! :D
 
1

13788

Guest
Vincentr1: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#94 date=01/21/04 at 10:22:23]No objectors towards Clinton's WMD speech?  No naysayers towards the UN's comprehensive and detailed list of exactly what Saddam did to initiate a conflict since the early 90's?  Guess not.  No one going to try to spew their mouths off at me while ignoring the blatant facts?  Not yet.  No one actually going to admit they are wrong and possibley change their viewpoints and opinions accordingly?  Probably not.  And that's why Liberalism prevails, because even when blatant facts from reliable sources are thrown at you, you still ignore it.  So when a Liberal knows they are wrong, they change the subject.  Lol.  

We know who wrapped this one up quite nicely. :)  Man it feels so good to be right, and to be cocky about it! :D[/quote]


The only blatant fact is that georgie invaded Iraq because his dick's too small and his ego's too big. The man's a mental midget at best. He's dumb enough to insult an entire race by showing up at MLK's grave and saying he believes in non-violent change right after he uses an entire army just to kick one man's ass. What a punk! Your couldn't be more wrong about being right. Vote for him again and it might be your family members getting blown to bits just so georgie can thump his chest like an angry 14 yr old in a school yard fight during a state of the union address. This guy is an embarassment to this country, his family, and males in general. At least Clinton could speak well. Even if he was lying he did keep everybody entertained for awhile. And yes, somebody WANTED to suck his dick. What a fuckin crime. :D Bush is so stupid he goes on National TV and lauds himself for killing thousands to capture one. Now that's a fuckin crime. If it were just georgie and Saddam going toe to toe, georgie would get his ass kicked. Not because Saddam's a better man, because georgie's so arrogant he'd be dumb enough to lead with his face and get knocked the fuck out. Hell, the only reason why Bush doesn't get his cock sucked is it's too damn small for somebody to want to suck it, and he's too damn arrogant to ask anyone to suck it regardless of it's size! If he gets elected again the soccer moms will storm the white house and kick his ass for then turn on the rest America. God forbid! Please Sir . HAVE A FUCKIN CLUE!
 
1

13788

Guest
gigantikok: Again, when I challenge a Liberal to dispute the facts I have put forth, they just make themselves look like a 10 year. Real mature just insulting Bush with no facts and nothing to argue. No one's stepping up, the best someone can do is tease Bush like a toddler, I guess the facts speak for themselves.
 
1

13788

Guest
Vincentr1: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#96 date=01/21/04 at 14:01:28]Again, when I challenge a Liberal to dispute the facts I have put forth, they just make themselves look like a 10 year.  Real mature just insulting Bush with no facts and nothing to argue.  No one's stepping up, the best someone can do is tease Bush like a toddler, I guess the facts speak for themselves.[/quote]

YOU are an insufferable IDIOT!

Facts:

- Over 500 Americans and thousands of Iraqi's are DEAD.

- NO weapons of mass destruction found.

- Over 150 billion dollars wasted.

- Bush's State of the Union speech was nothing but braggart cliché’s

- The US economy sucks! Worst it's been since Clinton left.

Yes the facts do speech for them selves. The man is an egotistical, maniacal, self serving twit with the conscience of serial killer. I am not teasing Bush. I'm calling him a murderer who hides behind the guise of political office.


You Sir;

I would behoove you to care about humanity enough not to support this man's re-election.
 
1

13788

Guest
jerkin4-10: vincent...EVERYONE here is entitled to their own opinion...your 1st 2 facts are correct..but thats where it ends...150 billion was not wasted...a cruel, inhumane dictator is no longer in power...45 of the 55 target criminals are in custody awaiting prosecution...2/3 of al quada [whatever] known leadership are in custody...AND most important...a CLEAR message has been sent to the rest of the world...WE AINT GONNA PLAY WITH TERRORISTS ANYMORE...the state of the union...a braggart statement...what the hell do you think its for son?...economy sux...well...i guess if you are sweeping up at mcdonalds...its always gonna suck...but where im at...the economy is picking up nicely...bush didnt ask for 911...this has had a GLOBAL effect...look at the dow...i think its over 10500 still...close to a record..
the prime is the lowest its been in 40 years or something...and when was the last time greenspan talked about lowering the prime to stimulate growth?... some time back...not even talking about it...because the economy is on the mend...look at ALL the indicators...including jobs...the airlines are calling back people they laid off 2 years ago...people are FLYING again...homeland security IS working...they are CATCHING people...and certainly DETERRING people...[have i punched enough holes yet?]...gig is not an idiot...
he HAS a different point of view...and if you would take the time to look at the FACTS...you would see that...
 
1

13788

Guest
Javierdude22: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#94 date=01/21/04 at 10:22:23]No objectors towards Clinton's WMD speech?  No naysayers towards the UN's comprehensive and detailed list of exactly what Saddam did to initiate a conflict since the early 90's?  Guess not.  No one going to try to spew their mouths off at me while ignoring the blatant facts?  Not yet.  No one actually going to admit they are wrong and possibley change their viewpoints and opinions accordingly?  Probably not.  And that's why Liberalism prevails, because even when blatant facts from reliable sources are thrown at you, you still ignore it.  So when a Liberal knows they are wrong, they change the subject.  Lol.  

We know who wrapped this one up quite nicely. :)  Man it feels so good to be right, and to be cocky about it! :D[/quote]

Gig...in a weird way I respect you...you stand by what you believe in.

With that in mind though, I have to say your full of it. Lets see if this works...

The point I was making, and the issue you brought up was that the BBC and CNN were unreliable newschannels, they distort facts (when it comes to Bush, ed.) That was the point in case, the BBC and CNN being flawed newschannels.

Good. THEN however, you immediately change the subject by diverting the discussion to something Clinton said. To prove your point you quote the BBC...

The BBC that earlier was a flawed newschannel....now is your mecca of truth?

Hmmm...

So the point was not that what the BBC said about Bill was untrue...cause I believe you...wait...I believe what th BBC said. However, your a walking contradiction man...and you do tend to use the percentile of newsreports that have something good to say about someone as fact, and disregard the other percentile that talk shit about someone (even if it is 99%). You disregard newschannels and call them biased when it applies to BUsh, but use them to prove a point when it applies to Bill.

Anyways...in the past...

[quote author=roedhunt link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#91 date=01/20/04 at 22:46:48] There is no other job that gives you a sense of pride and patriotism. Plus the respect you get from civilians is unbeatable...[/quote]

No other job?...hm...I can think of a few...it might be a gOOd job to give you pride and patriottism...


[quote author=jerkin4-10 link=board=99;num=1074109950;start=80#98 date=01/21/04 at 16:02:28]well...i guess if you are sweeping up at mcdonalds...its always gonna suck...but where im atthe economy is picking up nicely..[/quote]

Im sorry but isnt that the alltime Republican perpsective...DAMN!...You should count yourself lucky to have it well man, cause millions of people who are living in a dump never asked to be, and never expected to be, or worse, they had no choice cause they were born in it. Maybe if you step into the world youd be able to see that.

look at the dow...i think its over 10500 still...close to a record..
the prime is the lowest its been in 40 years or something...and when was the last time greenspan talked about lowering the prime to stimulate growth?... some time back...not even talking about it...because the economy is on the mend...look at ALL the indicators...including jobs...the airlines are calling back people they laid off 2 years ago...people are FLYING again...homeland security IS working...they are CATCHING people...and certainly DETERRING people...[have i punched enough holes yet?]...gig is not an idiot...
he HAS a different point of view...and if you would take the time to look at the FACTS...you would see that...

Im sorry, but your story is one big hole let alone you punched a few...that has got to be the most unnuanced look at life and the current situation I have yet seen. But..sometimes living in Lalaland is a nice way of stepping out of reality.

The Dow is as much as a bubble as it was 3 years ago, the only way the US, and your household, is running is on the European, or my, savings account. You might have missed that news story that said you have got an annual budget deficit that could relieve the Third World out of poverty, and then some! But they dont have your credit rating...O and we dont give THEM the money on the grounds of a lack of 'Good Governance'. Isnt that a hoot!? I wonder if Bush knows how to spell good governance...

And here we have a 5 year old playing with Fort Knox and the ECB at the same time..hope the piggy doesnt break...