Organic Food Vs. Non-organic food

thadjock

Mythical Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Posts
4,722
Media
7
Likes
58,995
Points
518
Age
47
Location
LA CA USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Yup, that's right. It's amazing how productive a small plot can be if managed properly.

how many people are going to give up their current job in order to grow all their own food? who's gonna spend 40hrs a week growing their own food when you could buy the same for $150 instead of earning $1500/wk at their current job. we haven't been an agrarian society since the 19th c.

you really think you can raise all the beef pork, chicken, dairy, or eggs you eat in a year on your little suburban plot? or the 500 bushels of corn, and 10 acres of pasture and hay you'll need if you want it range fed?

you guys are comparing the viability of a an organic hobby garden with the technology necessary for feeding the world. organic is far more labor intensive and you'd need a radical shift of the population returning to work the land as farm labor. A scenario unlikely at best, given that here in the US almost all the farm laborers are migrant workers becasue the resident population doesn't deem that suitable employment for themselves.
 

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
Just wait thad, the price of organics will keep coming down at Your local market. It is an inevitability driven by the free market system. And more and more of your 'square miles' farms and dairies and meats and eggs are also being treated organically. The quality of 'supermarket' organics is never going to be the same as home grown, and the small farmers generally supply specific restaurants otw that value perfect flavor in their ingredients.

I am a low income 'starving artist' without enough of a yard to grow what I need to survive. However I make compost for religious reasons. It grows lovely herbs and ornamentals much healthier than ones sprayed with mineral cocktails and poisons. I cannot afford the best there is, but I know it when I taste it.

What will continue to drive the conversion to organics is common sense. Desertification of croplands cannot be halted by quick fixes or corporate hogging, any more than oil companies can halt the devlopment of alternatives to their product. They can only delay it.
 

Viking_UK

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Posts
1,227
Media
0
Likes
150
Points
283
Location
Scotland
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
how many people are going to give up their current job in order to grow all their own food? who's gonna spend 40hrs a week growing their own food when you could buy the same for $150 instead of earning $1500/wk at their current job. we haven't been an agrarian society since the 19th c.

you really think you can raise all the beef pork, chicken, dairy, or eggs you eat in a year on your little suburban plot? or the 500 bushels of corn, and 10 acres of pasture and hay you'll need if you want it range fed?

you guys are comparing the viability of a an organic hobby garden with the technology necessary for feeding the world. organic is far more labor intensive and you'd need a radical shift of the population returning to work the land as farm labor. A scenario unlikely at best, given that here in the US almost all the farm laborers are migrant workers becasue the resident population doesn't deem that suitable employment for themselves.

If you think it takes 40 hours a week to make a few acres of land produce enough to feed a family, you don't know too much about growing plants, mate. You pretty much do the ground work and leave them to get on with it apart from earthing up, maintenance pruning, weeding and checking for pests etc. You'll probably find that most smallholders, crofters and small-scale farmers have other sources of income, because while the farming's enough to feed them, it's not sufficiently profitable to allow them to buy in stuff they can't make or grow themselves and it's nice to have a few luxuries.

I'm not disagreeing with you about an agrarian society being impractical, but there's nothing stopping people, even in cities, from growing at least some of their food if they've got enough space to allow them to do so. However, growing a few veggies in your back garden/yard isn't the same as farming organically.

Right now, it's not practical for farming to go organic. Current farming practices don't really lend themselves to it. However, it would be better for the environment and people if farms became more organic, but that would mean making some simple but quite drastic changes, such as crop rotation and changes in sewage treatment among others which would cost money short-term. So many nutrients which could go back to the land are currently being pumped out to sea, causing problems there, and they're being replaced on land by inorganic fertilisers. The pesticides, herbicides and fertilisers end up polluting local watercourses, not to mention building up in the bodies of anything that ingests them, but nobody seems to be too bothered as long as there's cheap food available. Now, I wouldn't class myself as an environmentalist or a greenie, but I think we're making a lot of mistakes in how we do many things, and farming is one of them. It's a question of appropriate management of resources.
 

ubered

Experimental Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Posts
232
Media
0
Likes
14
Points
163
Location
London, UK
Gender
Male
A Farm for the Future is a really interesting documentary about a farmers daughter considering how she can make the family's farm in Dorset (UK) viable for the post-fossil fuel age.

You can watch part one here, the rest are on youtube too.
 

thadjock

Mythical Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Posts
4,722
Media
7
Likes
58,995
Points
518
Age
47
Location
LA CA USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
If you think it takes 40 hours a week to make a few acres of land produce enough to feed a family, you don't know too much about growing plants, mate. You pretty much do the ground work and leave them to get on with it apart from earthing up, maintenance pruning, weeding and checking for pests etc.


I think we're making a lot of mistakes in how we do many things, and farming is one of them. It's a question of appropriate management of resources.

well you're unrealistic to think that producing ALL of the food a family of 4 eats is anything less than a 40 hr a week job for somebody in the family. we're not talking about a little fresh veg for the salad, we're talking literally a ton of food. you don't just throw some seed in the earth and stand back. it has to be cultivated, harvested, preserved, stored, rationed, etc. when pioneers were surviving on their own crops it was a full time job for the whole family, and if they were lucky they had a little left over to sell and improve their lot.

and where exactly would the residents of nyc , LA, London, or tokyo get a few acres to grow their food?

we could be doing alot more than worrying about food depleting our fossil fuels. we could all live within a mile or two of our work, travel by foot or bicycle, and eliminate ALL personal autos as transport. but we're not going to do that either, as a species we will continue to consume the planet's resources like locusts until depletion forces us to find another way. that's the only given in this equation, our insistence on free will makes us all prisoners of inertia. embrace the suck!
 

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
Thad, in Europe cities have a thing called allotments. They are catching on in this country by the name of 'community gardens'. You are just not hearing what you don't want to hear.
 

thadjock

Mythical Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Posts
4,722
Media
7
Likes
58,995
Points
518
Age
47
Location
LA CA USA
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Thad, in Europe cities have a thing called allotments. They are catching on in this country by the name of 'community gardens'. You are just not hearing what you don't want to hear.

no, you're not reading what i'm saying

nobody's growing 100% of all their own food on allottments. get real.

what percentage of the residents in any large city--european or otherwise--even have an allotment? get back to me when it reaches 90%.
 

Viking_UK

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Posts
1,227
Media
0
Likes
150
Points
283
Location
Scotland
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
well you're unrealistic to think that producing ALL of the food a family of 4 eats is anything less than a 40 hr a week job for somebody in the family. we're not talking about a little fresh veg for the salad, we're talking literally a ton of food. you don't just throw some seed in the earth and stand back. it has to be cultivated, harvested, preserved, stored, rationed, etc. when pioneers were surviving on their own crops it was a full time job for the whole family, and if they were lucky they had a little left over to sell and improve their lot.

and where exactly would the residents of nyc , LA, London, or tokyo get a few acres to grow their food?

we could be doing alot more than worrying about food depleting our fossil fuels. we could all live within a mile or two of our work, travel by foot or bicycle, and eliminate ALL personal autos as transport. but we're not going to do that either, as a species we will continue to consume the planet's resources like locusts until depletion forces us to find another way. that's the only given in this equation, our insistence on free will makes us all prisoners of inertia. embrace the suck!


You're right in a lot of what you say, but not all of it and I fully agree with you that nothing much is going to happen until it absolutely has to.

I also never said that every family should grow all their own food. I only said it was possible under the right circumstances. That's not practical in most cases these days with people living in cities.

My background is small-scale farming. My family worked the land for generations, and some of them still do. The long and the short of it is that if you have four acres of land and access to some extra grazing land, a few sheep and a cow, you can supply most of the needs of about eight people, including a few kids. If you also have access to fishing, that number goes up. When I was younger, we didn't grow all of our own food, just most of it. However, my parents' generation and the generations before them were pretty much self-sufficient and generated enough surplus that they could buy what they didn't grow themselves.

Yes, there are times of year when it is a full-time job, planting and harvesting especially, but for most of the rest of the year, on that scale, it's a few hours a week here and there, so it's perfectly feasible to have another job. In fact these days, with modern equipment, it's possible to get all of the planting done in a day and most of the harvesting can be done fairly quickly too.

The thing is, on that kind of scale, you're not going to be able to produce enough to feed more than your own family. If you want to scale it up to a commercial level, it gets more complicated, but it can be done. The biggest problems are apathy, complacency and resistance to change. It's far easier to order pellets of fertiliser and spread that than it is to spread manure. There's also a perception that modern, artificial means are better than old-fashioned, sustainable ways. However, you only have to compare soil samples from organic and intensive farms to see the how wrong that is.

You mentioned the pioneers. They faced a lot of problems, but a lot of it was down to the circumstances under which they arrived. Very little planning and advance preparation had been done. They had to clear land for cultivation, which, if you've ever prepared virgin soil, you'll know isn't easy. It's hard enough using modern equipment. They hadn't brought enough food to keep them going while they waited for their crops to mature and some of the crops they'd brought with them weren't really suited to the soil and climate they were trying to grow them in. Of course they were going to struggle. The thing is if they'd had modern farming equipment instead of horses and single ploughs life would have been much easier for them. A small tractor can do as much in an hour as a horse would do in a full day. How many acres can a combine harvester cover in a day? On average, a scythe team can harvest about an acre a day and then you've got all the threshing and winnowing to do afterwards. That's why farming used to be so labour-intensive. However, times have changed since then. Machinery does it faster so you don't need to have dozens of people working full-time to do the job. OK, harvesting some crops is very labour-intensive because they don't lend themselves to mechanisation, but, as you say, you've got plenty of migrant labour doing the work now, so what's the difference?

Modern farming could be much more environmentally-friendly with a few changes, but that's not going to happen immediately because it would involve investment, thought and planning, and would probably be more expensive initially, but time and market forces would bring the prices back down.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,677
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
I know couple in BC that intensively farm 10 acres organically and do quite well. They have three seasonal workers (usually students), and work their land seven months per year. The rest of their time is spent Mexico. They sell their produce at the farmers market in Vancouver and to speciality stores and higher- end restuarants. They will grow to order as well. For example a restaurant may order a certain type of lettuce or tomato, and they will grow it for them.

Also, their farm is completely off the power grid. They generate power from wind and small scale hydro.

They are doing pretty good. Their net last year was over eighty-thousand dollars.
 

Brensta

Superior Member
Gold
Platinum Gold
Joined
Jun 20, 2009
Posts
517
Media
17
Likes
7,126
Points
673
Location
Sydney
Sexuality
80% Gay, 20% Straight
Gender
Male
I think with the pretty sedimentary life we lead these days, focus should just be on getting people to eat more fruit and veg, rather than worrying about whether or not its organic :)

I'm a sceptic about things generally, I can't help but feel the "organic produce" industry is just a differentiation tool to drive up sales a bit, but I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise!

For now, I'll just keep buying my stuff without checking for that organic label. I am a tight ass too so I might just go for the cheapest
 

BIGdkluver

Expert Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Posts
650
Media
0
Likes
241
Points
173
Age
34
Location
USA--Illinois
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Gee, thanks, folks, for the very "lively" responses--to say the least!

I had no idea I would be starting such a verbal battle! But you have given me a lot to think about! So, thanks again!! :smile:
 

ZOS23xy

Sexy Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Posts
4,906
Media
3
Likes
31
Points
258
Location
directly above the center of the earth
Here's a kicker for you folks: cows don't like eating corn. It makes them ill. So farmers pump them up with antibiotics.

Your McShit burger is processed from sick animals.

My son stopped eating junk food recently. His face cleared up.

A lot of the chemicals used in a say, a Twinkie, may be harmless in the long run, but what of the build up and interaction with other food additives?

And this teflon? It's made with something called C-8. You can injest minute amounts of it, but it never leaves your body.
 

EagleCowboy

Cherished Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Posts
1,278
Media
4
Likes
476
Points
228
Location
TEXAS
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
well you're unrealistic to think that producing ALL of the food a family of 4 eats is anything less than a 40 hr a week job for somebody in the family.



DUDE!! I come from a family of 5. There was a time that we were flat broke. Qualified for welfare, but mom wouldn't have any of it. With a little POS tiller, shovel, hoes, and a POS truck, 2 HOURS TOPS a week was all that was needed to grow EVERYTHING we needed and wanted. And that included taking care of the chickens, ducks and horses. We didn't starve once. How do I know how much time is required? Because I was always the one that seemed to get stuck doing it!!

My neighbor across from me has a 60x60 garden. It produces enough to feed them for 6 months. And they're STILL giving stuff away to us neighbors. I've got 3, 1 quart mason jars full of habanero salsa made from their garden alone. From their 4 chickens, I have 7 cartons of LARGE eggs that they forced on me. They've taken to selling eggs now.

On my place alone I have 22 blueberry bushes that won't stop producing blueberries year round. Blackberries too.

Your current problem is that you're trying to tell people who are actually doing it that it can't be done.
 

EagleCowboy

Cherished Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Posts
1,278
Media
4
Likes
476
Points
228
Location
TEXAS
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Male
Here's a kicker for you folks: cows don't like eating corn. It makes them ill. So farmers pump them up with antibiotics. Not only that but steroids as well so they can keep up their strength since they're corn fed and not allowed to get their exercise by grazing in the fields.

Your McShit burger is processed from sick animals. Absolutely right. And you don't even want to know about the McNuggets!!

My son stopped eating junk food recently. His face cleared up.

A lot of the chemicals used in a say, a Twinkie, may be harmless in the long run, but what of the build up and interaction with other food additives?

And this teflon? It's made with something called C-8. You can injest minute amounts of it, but it never leaves your body.


The other day I went hunting with the truck and got me a deer on the way to work. (The insurance company told me that I have to quit doing that as it's too hard on the truck and I could have been seriously injured. :tongue: ) I will be having non-poisoned, wild, free range venison road kill for months!!

Hey!! It's either that or let the buzzards have it!! :eek:
 

Pendlum

Cherished Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Posts
2,138
Media
44
Likes
339
Points
403
Location
Washington, USA
Verification
View
Sexuality
80% Straight, 20% Gay
Gender
Male
Mmm, venison.

I am by no means an expert, but I do agree that having a garden feed a family isn't a stretch, assuming they have the space to do it, which isn't the case a lot of the time. A little bit of micro management goes a long way, considering that the plant normally does everything on its own, all you really need to do is give it a little helping hand.

Also mmm, venison.
 

helgaleena

Sexy Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Posts
5,475
Media
7
Likes
43
Points
193
Location
Wisconsin USA
Sexuality
50% Straight, 50% Gay
Gender
Female
Thadjock is concerned about feeding the world. That's nice but the truth is, we cannot or will not worry about every other human. There are simply too many of us and too many horrible and opressive social systems in place that institutionalize the expendability of surplus humans. We will continue to worry about what we put into our own mouths.

I have said it before and I will say it here too-- there are too many humans. Feel free to die in large numbers, preferably in areas with spotty media coverage. Try not to take out too many ecosystems on the way. I will just hunker down here with my immediate family and vote with my tiny pocketbook.
 

Velvet

Just Browsing
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Posts
24
Media
0
Likes
0
Points
36
Here is my take on the whole subject.

Here in the West we have come to believe, in our middle class affluence, that we SHOULD be eating meat every day.
Not so long ago the working middle class was lucky to have meat 3 times a week.
This consisted of the sacred Sunday roast and the leftovers were stretched in the form of cold meats, shepherds pie and a huge pot of vegetable soup flavored with the bone that was leftover.

We waste land.
Lawn is the biggest single waste of space and resources imaginable.
Over fertilized, over watered and then cut using petrol guzzling, noisy mowers to maintain the neat appearance.
Sure it produces clippings but don't put them freshly cut onto garden beds because they form a water shedding layer over the soil, heat to extreme temperatures as the clippings break down which will quite literally cook the roots of plants. This process also robs much needed nitrogen from the soil that the plants need.

Look at the duality of useful, food bearing plants.
There is so much beauty in fruit trees and vegetables.
These plants are pleasing to the eye but also give to the table.

When an ornamental plant dies or needs to be replaced, replace it with a useful food plant.
It will use up the same amount of resources in time, water and fertilizer and will reward you with not only the beauty of it's form but food items that you would other wise have to purchase.
Nothing is more tasty or satisfying than produce you have grown yourself.
 

ZOS23xy

Sexy Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2007
Posts
4,906
Media
3
Likes
31
Points
258
Location
directly above the center of the earth
One of the dangers of current food trends is mono culture, excluding the diversity of nature for something easily raised.

Corn is easily raised but has a drawback that it is only an annual. There are type of perennial corn, but they are tropical and have smaller ears. So why isn't anything thinking of researching this? (Cause it sounds like a good idea? What?)

Mono culture also extends to NAPA valley, where a mutant virus or mold could wipe out the wine production.