Our Endangered Values

madame_zora

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aloofman said:
If it makes you feel better, American voters have been saying that for about 210 years.

Yeah, but there was a time when we had the balls to throw the Boston Tea Party. The danger increases in direct proportion to the lack of motivation from the people to do something about a bad situation, even when we can see it happening.
 

D_Salmaine Sharpshlong

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The problem with politics is that it has devolved into a winner take all sport, with ideas and truth falling prey to the need to win. The sorry educational state of the american electorate makes us vulnerable to the machinations of Carl Rove and Co. who know how to push the buttons of enough voters to win. The media is complicit in that it covers the blood sport, not the issues. The way we are going, we should just set up an arena and have the two parties fight it out with fists and weapons.

Jimmy Carter and the Dali Lama are my ideals. True peacemakers. That's my two cents.

(I posted this and then saw it pop up with my Calvin Klein bulge exhibitionism and it seemed incongruous. But I've never hurt anyone with the bulge.....)
 

BobLeeSwagger

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madame_zora said:
Yeah, but there was a time when we had the balls to throw the Boston Tea Party. The danger increases in direct proportion to the lack of motivation from the people to do something about a bad situation, even when we can see it happening.

Only a tiny group of people had the "balls" to throw the Boston Tea Party and when independence was declared, only about a third of the colonists supported it. Comparing any time's leaders to the Founding Fathers isn't really fair to anyone.
 

madame_zora

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aloofman said:
Only a tiny group of people had the "balls" to throw the Boston Tea Party and when independence was declared, only about a third of the colonists supported it. Comparing any time's leaders to the Founding Fathers isn't really fair to anyone.

I know. It's probably just my desire to believe there was a time or place less stupid. I do think that we are too pampered to be willing or able to react to much thesedays, and that has me worried. No one's doing any demonstrating or threatening the government to straighten up and fly right, and I think that until they are forced by the people, things will continue as they are.
 

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In view of the current problems with one party rule, I am beginning to think that maybe a multi-party system AND a parlimentary form of government might be better.

I have seen enough smoke and fire from the activities of those who say that they embrace fundamental religious and conservative values to conclude their political leaders are totally corrupt and lack common decency.

jay
 

Matthew

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madame_zora said:
I know. It's probably just my desire to believe there was a time or place less stupid. I do think that we are too pampered to be willing or able to react to much thesedays, and that has me worried. No one's doing any demonstrating or threatening the government to straighten up and fly right, and I think that until they are forced by the people, things will continue as they are.
And on the few occasions when masses of people gather to protest, it gets ignored or discounted by the media. But that's understandable since we need front-and-center coverage of Nick and Jessica's split.
 

madame_zora

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Yes, apparently we do. That's the problem. I remember HOW FUCKING MUCH TIME the news and media devoted to Clinton's blowjob until people simply stopped watching and buying the scandal rags. When we hit them in the WALLET, they finally got the hint that the American public simply didn't care.

The news and media are a reflection of our society as much as they are directors of public opinion. Blowjobs are easy to understand and debate but government, international economics, treaties and trade agreements are things far beyond the capacity of the average person. They're also not as tittilating. We get fuck-little from our politicians and newsmen because that's all we demand. Until accountability becomes a demand from the public, politicians will continue to use their positions as a way to amass tremendous personal wealth at the expense of the nation, and the media will play right along, for the same reasons. If we really want it to stop, we'd have to stop buying into it. We do have historical precedent, we just don't have enough desire to follow through.
 

brainzz_n_dong

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Zora said...

"The news and media are a reflection of our society as much as they are directors of public opinion. Blowjobs are easy to understand and debate but government, international economics, treaties and trade agreements are things far beyond the capacity of the average person. They're also not as tittilating. We get fuck-little from our politicians and newsmen because that's all we demand. Until accountability becomes a demand from the public, politicians will continue to use their positions as a way to amass tremendous personal wealth at the expense of the nation, and the media will play right along, for the same reasons. If we really want it to stop, we'd have to stop buying into it. We do have historical precedent, we just don't have enough desire to follow through."

One tangent I would take is...If you want to start changing society, one place to start is in school. We only have one mandatory day per year that the Constitution is taught? How whack is that? The time I spent in grade, middle, and high school was spent primarily talking about WWII and later (obv just talking history there). What about those of you that were in school in the 80's or earlier - was it much different? In high school, we had a governmental class, but it was mainly used by seniors as an easy credit and taught accordingly and ended up becoming more a "current events" class than anything.

I always figured they emphasized WWII and later was because people like Time-Life make so many videos that can serve as substitute teachers and the class teacher doesn't have to talk for 50 minutes. Last time I checked, Ben Franklin did a great many things but didn't cut any videos. How else can you get inside kids heads other than by talking to them?

Maybe if we started making it a point to try and instill more awareness in children of how things here got started and their vested interest in understanding it, just maybe it would pay off later in life? Maybe a reach, but I'd still wager more 20-year olds could write a longer paper about Nick & Jess's marriage, show, and break-up than they could about the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.

If you want more accountability from present-day government, try going back to an old idea: term limits and/or spending limits on campaigns. It would be more constitutionally profitable to tackle the spending limits from within a state versus trying to do it from a fed level. Nonetheless, we're heading to a point where we'll have 24/7 campaigns for the coming election the minute the prev one ended. One study showed that those who self-limit themselves (in the House) to a pre-set # of terms show more willingness to cut spending and "do what's right" instead of just doing what is easy.

Otherwise, we as voters reward politicos for bringing home the bacon and expect it of them. Look at Sen Stevens from Alaska or Sen Byrd from W.Va. How many roads or bridges does Mr. Byrd have named after him? Why are we spending $250 M to build bridges to nowhere in Alaska? It's where we've ended up, sadly enough.

I'm very pro-defense, but they use a version of this when appropriating $$$ for that area. A system is never built in one area. It's components are assembled in many different districts and if it ends up truly needing to be canceled, it only becomes that much more difficult because you have so many lords and lasses in Congress fighting it.
 

madame_zora

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BnD, I was in high school in the 70's and it was apparently much different. I guess I didn't really find out HOW different until the later years my daughter was in school. I was a lot more involved in elementary school with her, and it seemed pretty much the same as I had experienced. I was working "real jobs" by the time she got to high school and I didn't get to see firsthand what was being done. The things I saw happening to her were beyond my wildest expectations. Her school, which was touted as one of Cincy's finest, was more of a baby-sitting service and a place where robots are manufactured and indoctrinated. If you didn't happen to be in sports, you got no attention at all. Art, theatre, and even SCIENCE classes were cut, or made extra-curricular, what a load of shit!

My school didn't spend much time on current events, I think mainly because our books were a few years old, but we did study the formation of the government. As a matter of fact, we had a course called "government" that was a full quarter long and was required to graduate! My daughter had no such class.

You are right on target with this one. I was just talking to a Jordanian lady at the store down the street. She is a teacher and her husband owns the store. She was telling me about language and how it differs here from everywhere else. In Jordan, English is taugh as a second language, but basically every educated person learns it, as a source of pride. They frequently learn French as well. Yes, our schools teach languages too, but we never really use them. I don't know many people who can use the language they learned in school. Of course, this is just one small example, but when we lose our educational advantage globally, I think we are going to find ourselves in an undesirable and rueful position of inferiority. None of the turdballs in our government who were only interested in keeping us stupid enough to be easily controlled will be taking any of the blame either.

How on earth can we have people voting who don't even know how our system of government works? This boggles my mind. I think every person who wishes to vote should have to pass a basic test about the functioning of the government. No names or dates, but one should have to prove a general knowledge of the branches of government and their proper interaction with each other, or lose their voting priveledges pending taking a refresher course on the subject. Why not? We do it for a driver's liscense, isn't voting as important as that?

Classically, Democrats have been more interested in social issues such as education and healthcare, perhaps they'll run on such a platform this time. I hope they will lobby for what they want to do that's good and profitable for the people rather than what the repubs did to fuck up. That part will be abundantly clear by then (in case there's anyone alive who can't see it now). I want to hear a leader come out and say that what has happened here should never have happened and that we must do what we can with as much effort as we can to correct the flow. I want to hear a PLAN for retreat from Iraq (since I'm sure we'll still be there, no way bush and cheney would stop bilking the American people or the Iraqis any sooner than necessary) and I want to hear a well-spelled out PLAN for what is going to be done about our huge national debt. Perhaps we can start saving money by not picking fights with other sovereign nations who aren't attacking us, there's a start. THEN, I want to see OUR money being used to help OUR poor, needy, our children get proper educations, a national healthcare plan. As a cherry on top, I'd cream myself if a politician said something about looking into capping profit margins on drug companies and opening up trade for drugs to foreign competitors. This situation of forcing senior citizens to pay top dollar for drugs or just DIE has got to stop. If Canada can sell drugs for less, it is ONLY in the interest of fucking drug companies that we don't allow them to market here. I'd also like to see profit limits places on oil companies. There's no excuse under the sun why they were reporting record profits while we were paying top dollar at the pumps. I'd love to know how much bush and cheney made PERSONALLY, as in, for themselves. Not that I'd believe info presented by them, but I would love to know the reality of it.

People my age are really fucking pissed off. We smoked pot during high school and didn't pay as much attention to our classes as we should have, but we learned a little by accident. The younger people don't even get the opportunity. Yes, something has got to be done about that, or the current trend will inevitably be our undoing.
 

dlcs

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Right on, Madame Z. Our twelve-year-old Governor here in Missouri decided to balance the state budget by cutting out programs for the disabled and closing care centers across the state. Head Start, a program for underprivileged children who might not have access to early childhood education otherwise, was the first to go up on the block. And yet, our baseball team is getting a new stadium.
We've got the highest number of Meth labs in the country here, but barely a task force to deal with them.

This in the state in which John Ashcroft lost to a dead man.

As for responsible voting, I overheard a bunch of giggly girls talking about how excited they were to have voted in their first election. So I asked them who they voted for.
"Bush. *giggle giggle*"
"Why?"
"Because he's so much cuter than John Kerry! *giggle giggle*"

Damn near bit my tongue in half.
 

rawbone8

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You know sadly it may all come down in the end to people in their gut simply believing that one guy could take the other in a fight

The perception deep down that people never articulate that fear drives people to support those they instinctively feel could protect them and the nation

Smarts, philosophy, integrity, vision are all what people talk about, but there are so many people who vote the way their dad voted, and his dad and so on.
 

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SpeedoGuy said:
Well, GWB clearly doesn't have any other leadership qualities.

SG
Oh, honey, it was SO hard to hold back from smacking one of them upside their perfectly peroxided heads. If I hadn't been at work...
 

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madame_zora said:
I saw former president Carter on the Jay Leno show a couple nights ago, did anyone happen to catch that? He has recently written his first political book, his twentieth offering. I couldn't find a transscript of that interview, but the book itself is a noteworty discussion topic. While opinions about his presidency are divided and often not stellar, I doubt that many would question either his personal integrity or his honesty. He was one of the very few presidents to leave the White House in debt, so clearly he was not about the business of amassing personal wealth, as has been the custom.

Several of us have been saying that the Christians are the only ones who could put an end to this loathsome neocon movement, and we just may have our champion here. As a man who has spent the last two decades of his life in devoting himself to easing human suffering and recipient of the Noble Peace Prize in 2002, I doubt the words could be as resonant from anyone else.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4984885
Funny, nobody ever mentions that he is the largest Lumber baron
in the U.S. I wonder where habitat for humanity buy their wood from ?
 

Matthew

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Shelby said:
Been there done that. Outlawed by the Voting Rights Act of 1965
Careful, Shelby. Someone night mistake you for a liberal.
 

madame_zora

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jakeatolla said:
Funny, nobody ever mentions that he is the largest Lumber baron
in the U.S. I wonder where habitat for humanity buy their wood from ?

Honestly, I wouldn't find that to be a conflict of interest for someone who has dedicated his life to helping ease the suffering of others, he hasn't taken a vow of poverty, you know. I WOULD call it a problem if he was overcharging for the wood, but that's hardly likely.
 

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madame_zora said:
Honestly, I wouldn't find that to be a conflict of interest for someone who has dedicated his life to helping ease the suffering of others, he hasn't taken a vow of poverty, you know. I WOULD call it a problem if he was overcharging for the wood, but that's hardly likely.
How much is too much to charge for wood?