Our Senators and Congressmen are ALL idiots.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by lucky8, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. lucky8

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2006
    Messages:
    3,716
    Likes Received:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, they are mentally retarded. They don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that if you help the business, you must help the consumer as well for the simple fact that most of these businesses are suffering because consumers are suffering. We must help the consumer, or else these businesses are going to come back half a year from now, asking for more money because consumers aren't spending.

    Beyond the bailout of the financial sector, it is obvious to anyone with a clue that there is a greater underlying problem than mortgage defaults and foreclosures. Look around. The auto company is going bankrupt, retailers like Circuit City are going bankrupt, manufacturers are going bankrupt, and it is 100% NOT because of subprime defaults. Subprime defaults were caused, largely, by people not having enough money; we don't have money to spend, and the money we do have, isn't worth shit anymore. As much as people would like to believe we need to save business to save consumers, we actually need to save the consumers so we can save business. If consumers aren't spending, businesses will fail no matter how much money we throw at them. Wake up. There is a money shortage amongst both businesses AND consumers, and the consumer money shortage, if not taken care of, will be the downfall of business as we know it.

    The worst thing we can do right now is bailout businesses and do nothing for the consumer. If we bailout the automakers, and people still don't have much discretionary income, these companies will be begging for another bailout Q2 of '09 because no one will be buying their products; it will be a waste of money, period. Example: AIG. Already asking for more money. It is rediculous to think that just because we bailout a business, consumers are just magically going to have the kind of extra income they used to. We have a very serious problem here in America, and it seems our leaders only want to address one side of the issue. If our leaders don't get their shit together real soon (as in the next month), Americans, we will be severely screwed for the long haul. Better start stocking up on Ramen noodles and Chef Boyardee, because the storm is about to hit and level the entire middle class
     
  2. faceking

    faceking Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,445
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    25
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
    I've been saying this over and over amidst and inbetween the "it's all and always Bush's fault" drivel.

    Noone is buying cars now, wait till unemployment REALLY hits, and so forth. I was thinking a miraculous recovery for the auto industry would be Q3, and that's like 1:100 chance. This is purely political for a union handjob, ...problem is the auto makers are anorgasmic.
     
  3. B_24065

    B_24065 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    1
    Businesses create jobs, and jobs create money for people to spend. You dont want to help consumers by simply giving them money because much of that money will likely not return to the market because it will be used to pay of debt (credit cards, mortgages, car loans, etc.) and thus be absorbed in interest rates. The way to fix is by radically reducing taxes (and govt spending) across the board which will free up billions in capitol. this will lead to more consumer spending, more business and job creation, and more money returning to financial institutions that will inturn free-up credit markets again. The most amazing thing about all of this is how simple the problem is and how simple the solution is. The reason its become so complicated is because we have an overgrown power hungry federal gov't who is attemting to seize the opportunity to extend its arrogant power, even though it was their intrusion into the free market system that got us in this mess in the first place.
     
  4. mindseye

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    5,685
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Republican talking-point claptrap.

    Your statement of the problem: money provided to consumers will be "absorbed in interest rates".

    Your statement of the solution: "radically reduc[e] taxes across the board".

    Your solution -- if implemented -- would give money to businesses (their taxes were reduced), and then give more money to businesses (consumers' taxes would be reduced, and by your own statement of the problem, that money would be "absorbed in interest rates"). In other words, businesses win twice, consumers gain nothing.

    If the problem is excessive interest rates, why not impose a solution that addresses the problem by reducing the cap on interest rates that lenders can charge?
     
  5. ieatcats1426

    ieatcats1426 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2005
    Messages:
    56
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Northern Ohio
    In a nutshell you're right.

    Unfortunately, the "fix" doesn't happen overnight, much like the interest rates set by the feds take time to hit the market.

    Too bad the government is going to keep basing their heads into the wall. Hopefully the democratic Senate won't create 1,000,000 new government programs from our tax money.
     
  6. B_24065

    B_24065 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2006
    Messages:
    651
    Likes Received:
    1
    I didnt say interest rates were the problem and you know nothing about economics so move on to another thread. consumers are helped when

    1. they have a job and

    2. they get to keep more of their own money rather than giving it over to the govt.

    What is your rabbid hatred for business anyways? are you unaware of the fact that oh 99% of americans who have a job are employed by a business. If businesses are broke because people are not buying their product or services then they have to lay off jobs, which then turns into a vicious circle. the only way to reverse that cycle is to free up capitol by reducing taxes across the board which will allow more money for businesses to develop job creation=more jobs=more money peoples pockets=more spending=more business growth=more jobs and so on. i owned my own business before. when your business grows financially you can do 1 of 2 things. 1. keep all the profit or 2. hire more people to increase your output which increases your profit. This is elementary school stuff here.

    it doesnt matter how you cut it libtard, if you raise taxes, ESPECIALLY on businesses, you will slow the economy. If slobama does it in this current enviroment, it will prove catastrophic.
     
    #6 B_24065, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  7. 1BiGG1

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The in-the-nutshell version = it started with subprime. When that mess started investors ran causing a crash and the government quietly stepped in letting FHA/USDA Rural and state sponsored programs pickup where subprime left off allowing subprime borrowers to continue both buying and refinancing.

    Now that the investors were gone from subprime they also starting looking at the stated income and other loans people should not have been getting and as soon as defaults on those started raising a pinch they ran quickly from them as well.

    The house of cards was teetering now and the market started slowing as Fannie/Freddie were tightening up lending guidelines while the investors were still running to the point where the house of cards finally fell.

    The credit markets in retail also started tightening their underwriting guidelines considerably fearing recession as nobody knew where the hits from housing would end bringing us to today. When credit markets are stabilized investor/consumer confidence will return and we will be back rollin’

    Handing out money to consumers will help a very-little-bit for the very-short-term but the answer is getting the credit markets stabilized and helping businesses ride out the storm.

    Business will keep people out of the homeless shelters, not government handouts and if we do not support businesses here there is a long line of other places that will. It seems some liberals keep forgetting that.
     
  8. mindseye

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    5,685
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    You've squeezed five negative attacks into this post; I'll limit myself to one: Can you read?

    My post didn't mention raising taxes. It mentioned capping interest rates, which is something completely different.
     
  9. lucky8

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2006
    Messages:
    3,716
    Likes Received:
    17
    Gender:
    Male
    Listen to what I am saying. This mess did not start with defaults; subprime defaults are a direct result of a money shortage in our country. Got it? Good. There is a much larger problem in America: the devalution of the dollar and the shortage of cash. This shortage of cash is having a profound impact on consumers. It's the catch-22 of this whole thing. Consumers aren't making enough money to cover their expenses, and in turn, businesses are hurting because their isn't any extra money for consumers to spend on their businesses. If businesses are suffering because people don't have money to spend, they lay people off and slash wages, adding even more fuel to the fire. I'm not talking about loans here, I'm talking about average income in relation to average costs. Since businesses are hurting, they aren't paying. Which means consumers have less money to spend to keep these businesses going.

    Businesses are suffering for one reason and one reason only: they aren't making profits. Why aren't they making profits? Because CONSUMERS don't have money to spend. Should I just keep repeating this phrase until some of you decide to comprehend it?

    There is a HUGE problem on both sides of the coin here, and only helping businesses will, in the end, do nothing if you don't help the consumer as well. This reaches FAR beyond the housing market, and you guys can keep that discussion in another thread. Lowering taxes isn't going to do much. It's too late for that. That might have helped prevent this if they were lowered about 4 years ago, but lowering them now, will have a minimal effect. There is no "easy fix" for what is happening right now.
     
  10. ZOS23xy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,073
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    directly above the center of the earth
    Another added item is the cost of gas. When it was 3 dollars a gallon, people cut back on their purchases in order to drive. This spilled over to the consumer goods, which cut back orders and the spiral started.

    And a lot of money is tied up in conglomerates. This should not be.

    More neologism crack heads....*sigh*
     
  11. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Midwest
    All above have made valid arguments. A few other details are critical, however:

    1. A substantial amount of consumer spending that has occurred over the past 5 years has not come from 'money in their pockets,' it has come through credit. That is, credit cards, cash-out refinances/equity lines, and installment loans for purchases such as automobiles and boats.

    These credit avenues are dried up - all of them. A consumer-based stimulus package will be a short-term bandaid that will boost retail numbers for one quarter. The end result will just be another giant debt on our nation's balance sheet.

    2. Bumping up capital gains taxes is simply foolish. Its a disincentive to the private sector to invest in assets, and very few people are sitting on gains right now anyway - it won't provide much tax revenue.

    3. I hate be the one to say this, but the U.S. auto manufacturers are done. The per-employee cost of the Big 3 is $72 per hour. For Toyota employees in America, the hrly cost is $48. You cannot compete under those circumstances. Further, nobody is buying the profitable SUV's. There aren't enough profits in selling Ford Focuses to cover the labor costs for US automakers. Oh, and people can't get loans to buy them anyway.

    They need to go to the ee's, and cut pay and benefits. If the ee's don't agree, the pay package will be zero. I'd rather have less pay and less benefits, than zero pay and zero benefits.
     
  12. OldPArtner

    OldPArtner New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2006
    Messages:
    173
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    ee's? Still, I get the idea...GODAMN UNIONS!!1

    (seriously, it's because of those union contracts that the big 3 are bleeding money)
     
  13. curious n str8

    curious n str8 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    941
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The big AK
    We need to build a consumer and business friendly environment. Lowering taxes, make it easier for manufacting companies to compete in the USA. That being easing environmental issues but not dramatically.



    I have said that long ago in my earlier posts.
     
  14. ZOS23xy

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,073
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    directly above the center of the earth
    Industry should not aim for growth, but maintained sales. A growth industry tends to calculate on sales in the future while it hasn't made back the funds for previous investing.
     
  15. HazelGod

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    7,531
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    The Other Side of the Pillow

    This has a lot more to do with starting the avalanche than people are discussing. You can argue the various merits and pitfalls of a debt-based economy, but ours ran relatively smoothly for decades.

    It wasn't until one of our significant sunk costs (fuel) tripled within the span of a couple years that the wheels started falling off the wagon. That increase not only drove up retail prices as shipping costs ate up profit margins, it also ate up what little disposable income consumers had. Savings rates were already ridiculously low, and the fuel increases cut them further.

    Only ONE industry...ONE group of businesses profited from all this. You know which one. You've seen the headlines for the past several quarters, as their profits continue to break records they previously set.

    That said, much blame still lies with the consumers themselves. Deficit spending is largely stupid, but it's become the norm...people pay interest-only mortgages (rent, anyone? Oh, that's right...renters don't pay property taxes, sucker!) on homes they can't afford, lease cars they can't afford to own, buy expensive shit they neither need nor can afford, blah, blah, blah.

    I sit back and watch this dispassionately because I enjoy the luxury of youth. I've watched my retirement portfolio take a 25% punch in the nuts this year so far...and do you know what my financial adviser tells me? That I'm doing pretty good, comparatively. Isn't that a riot? But since I won't be looking at retirement for a couple decades anyhow, this isn't costing me any sleep. In fact, I'm buying the hell out of undervalued equities right now.

    Anyhow, I don't trust this Congress (or the upcoming one) to fix the problem. It's going to take a lot of shift in consumer thinking to weather this storm.
     
  16. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    4,409
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Midwest
    Exactly.
     
  17. BobLeeSwagger

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,481
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    You're just now figuring out that our elected officials are morons? You might want to get your eyes checked.

    :rolleyes:
     
  18. stratedude

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,864
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    53
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ohio
    In reponse to the OP, Circuit City is going out of business because they are getting their asses kicked by Best Buy. Period, end of story. This recession is just the last nail in their coffin.
     
  19. alpinepaul

    alpinepaul New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2004
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    1
    As a believer in democracy: If your politicans are idiots, get your ass moving and engage. engage. engage. If you know the solution to only one problem, go out, convince people, go get elected and change the wolrd. either on your local level or elsewhere.

    PEOPLE HAVE THE POWER!

    And for the Economy: How about "The system's wrong"?? Consume in Western Countries is too high, not too low, maybe we just should start to repair things instead of buying new ones, we also can live without a new mobile phone every second month; and to replace private consume let's build schools and hospitals and roads and subways worldwide; let's share the work that has to be done and not some working 50h/week and the others none, worldwide; let the robots do the work so we have time for our families and friends, for learning and health and luck

    3 - 6 billion people in ongoing competition who produces most and cheapest -> neither society nor the planet cant stand it
     
Draft saved Draft deleted