OUTING. who's fair game?

[Bbucko]

I certainly hold no stigma against HIV, having several friends who are positive and watching my aunt die from AIDS related complications.

I am sorry for you loss, I truly am.

Don't be afraid to come onto my side of the fence, it seems as if you're taking a hands-off, babyish approach.

There is nothing "babyish" in attempting to separate morality and a sexually transmitted virus. It's a very pragmatic and realistic way of dealing with reality.

The husband who's deceiving his wife and spreading the disease may not be textbook "guilty" but he's clearly irresponsible and REsponsible for the spreading of the disease. It's not as easy as guilty/innocent infections, but there are people out there who are DIRECTLY spreading the disease by employing deception and poor decision-making.

Yes, there are sociopaths who care for no one but themselves and their pleasure. There are idiotic bugcatchers and "gifters" who make my skin crawl.

But 95% of the people I know live with HIV/AIDS carry two burdens of stigma: that imposed on them by society and that imposed on them by themselves. You can't change the world, but you can change yourself by eliminating the internalized stigma as much as possible.

I have several female friends I've met through AIDSmeds.com, all of whom were infected by husbands/boyfriends on the DL. To the last, they've all moved on from the circumstances surrounding their infections. Otherwise, life would have no meaning for them.

It would be very easy for me to fall back on "innocence": I was infected very early in the epidemic, certainly no later than 1983. At that point, it wasn't even called HIV (it was called HTLV-3) and no one was certain how it was transmitted.

No one attaches a moral stigma to HPV, but it's spread the same way and can lead to cervical and rectal cancer, which is deadly.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss. I stopped counting my losses at 60 (and that was in 1992).

 

[marleyisalegend]

I am sorry for you loss, I truly am.

That means more coming from you than it would anywhere else, and you're one of the few who I believe are genuine in expressing this sentiment.

There is nothing "babyish" in attempting to separate morality and a sexually transmitted virus. It's a very pragmatic and realistic way of dealing with reality.

Babyish was a knee-jerk reaction but it felt like you were offering general sympathy without taking into account people who were directly responsible for spreading the disease, people which live within a subtext of the OP. Even the ones who are responsible, I still feel for them and offer no less sympathy than I would someone in a different case, I pray for everyone one of them without bias. However, in the context of this thread, the people being referred to are more on the responsible end.

 

[DC_DEEP]

But we've let this thread get sidetracked onto a totally different issue.

Marley, I'll ask again: is it more "morally reprehensible" to know that someone is actively working to destroy the lives of many others (anti-gay legislation or anti-gay sermons) all the while engaging in those very same behaviors, or is it more "morally reprehensible" to expose that one person?

Personally, I think it would be more "morally responsible" to expose such a hypocrite.

 

[Bbucko]

However, in the context of this thread, the people being referred to are more on the responsible end.

People who are long-term survivors of HIV/AIDS have learned to forgive themselves for being infected, regardless of the circumstance of infection. Otherwise a sudden storm would have carried them off years ago.

It's difficult for someone on the "outside" to accept (or even comprehend), but ultimately each of us is responsible for his/her own infection. That's what happened, that's how it happened, so deal with it. Some do and survive, others don't.

 

[Bbucko]

But we've let this thread get sidetracked onto a totally different issue.

Quite right. My apologies. Carry on.

 

[marleyisalegend]

But we've let this thread get sidetracked onto a totally different issue.

Marley, I'll ask again: is it more "morally reprehensible" to know that someone is actively working to destroy the lives of many others (anti-gay legislation or anti-gay sermons) all the while engaging in those very same behaviors, or is it more "morally reprehensible" to expose that one person?

Personally, I think it would be more "morally responsible" to expose such a hypocrite.

LOL the way you've worded it has left only one correct answer but coincidentally I agree. I think BBucko and my back-and-forth did raise some relevant points that ultimately support you. Right/wrong aside, there are some very real, very dire consequences to people who choose to live double lives. These consequences can range from emotionally damaging someone to transmitted a terminal (well, semi-terminal) disease. Not to mention the chaos that ensues when their self-hatred manifests itself into anti-gay promotion.

 

[killerb]

When is it ok for you to tell the world about another persons sexuality?
Im including just about anyone in this;

A friend
Person living in same area
person at work etc etc but also...

Well known public figures; actors, singers and politicians etc

Who is fair game and at what point do they become fair game?
Is it ever justifiable to expose someone in that way?

It's never ok for you to "tell the world" about another person's sexuality.
However, there are cases where you might need to inform someone who is directly affected by it.

Example, you might know someone who is living in the closet, carrying on a hetero relationship, and having homo sex on the side. You might feel the need to inform their mate so they are prepared to make an informed decision as to whether to continue the relationship...

There are many who say that someone who leads a secret life deserves to be dragged out of the closet...

Personally, I would rather let people decide on their own to be honest about who they are...but it is very hard when someone you care about is in that situation and are unaware that their mate is leading a double life.

 

[DC_DEEP]

It's never ok for you to "tell the world" about another person's sexuality.
However, there are cases where you might need to inform someone who is directly affected by it.
<...>
There are many who say that someone who leads a secret life deserves to be dragged out of the closet...

Personally, I would rather let people decide on their own to be honest about who they are...but it is very hard when someone you care about is in that situation and are unaware that their mate is leading a double life.

I still have not seen a convincing argument against someone who makes a living by condemning people for doing the same things they do. I'm not saying that every person who is closeted should be outed. I am saying that every closeted person who villifies gay people should be outed.

 

[killerb]

I still have not seen a convincing argument against someone who makes a living by condemning people for doing the same things they do. I'm not saying that every person who is closeted should be outed. I am saying that every closeted person who villifies gay people should be outed.

there is no argument to support that...

 

[MuscledHorse]

The only person who is fair game for outing is the one who makes anti-gay comments or takes anti-gay stances or actions (e.g Ted Haggard). Hypocrites are always deserving of discovery. Beyond that, as much as it pains many in the gay community, a person's sexuality is not public business unless they choose to make it so. We don't go around outin people who are left handed.

 

[alex8.5]

I only agree with it when its some nut job in washington that has voted anti gay again and again.I love when those clowns are outed.If its just some shmo from everyday,Than thats his our her buisness

I tend to agree with this post. And yet part of me does not agree. It is not just the person your outing, but to some extent his /her entire family, especially if they are public.

But to out someone just because you want people to know they are gay, i would never, never do that to someone.

 

[killerb]

It's NEVER okay to tell people about a persons' sex life if they don't want it to be revealed, regardless of orientation or gender.

If the person wanted everyone to know they were gay, they would have already told them. Anybody who purposely outs their friend is a stupid, nosy bastard. Really? Based on what besides your opinion?



It's not your business to break up a friend and the person he's seeing. If he's cheating on her, she'll find out, trust me; women always notice the way a man changes, and she always has a way of finding out the truth. If you can't offer your support, you shouldn't get involved at all.

Offer support for what, exactly? The cheater who's deceiving everyone or the person being cheated on & lied to? Whether you agree with it or not, some people would appreciate being told their mate is cheating.

 

[mindseye]

If the person wanted everyone to know they were gay, they would have already told them. Anybody who purposely outs their friend is a stupid, nosy bastard.

It's not your business to break up a friend and the person he's seeing. If he's cheating on her, she'll find out, trust me; women always notice the way a man changes, and she always has a way of finding out the truth. If you can't offer your support, you shouldn't get involved at all.

If being a "stupid, nosy bastard" potentially saves someone's life, I'll be as stupid and nosy as it takes. If it helps to ensure that someone's kids don't end up losing both parents to a fatal disease, well...

I made the decision once to keep a confidence when I knew that a closeted gay man at my workplace was having unsafe sex outside of his marriage, and I've grown to regret that decision.

 

[marleyisalegend]

It's NEVER okay to tell people about a persons' sex life if they don't want it to be revealed, regardless of orientation or gender.

If the person wanted everyone to know they were gay, they would have already told them. Anybody who purposely outs their friend is a stupid, nosy bastard.

It's not your business to break up a friend and the person he's seeing. If he's cheating on her, she'll find out, trust me; women always notice the way a man changes, and she always has a way of finding out the truth. If you can't offer your support, you shouldn't get involved at all.

This gets the award for most illogical post ever.

 

[Viking_UK]

As someone who's been outed twice, I have to say that it has plus and minus points. An ex of mine outed me when I told her I was leaving her for a man. It caused a lot of problems at the time, but it gave me a chance to find out who my real friends were. Luckily for me, she only told our friends and my boss at the time, who was more interested in the quality of my work than my sexual preference. I'm still not out to a couple of relatives, like my dad -officially at least. I think he knows, but doesn't want to deal with it and I'm not going to force him to.

My second outing was when one of the guys I used to work with bought my first porno and told most of my colleagues about it. That actually went quite well. As far as I know, the boss never heard about it, but most of the staff did. I got whispered about in corners and certainly got a lot more attention from the gay guys I worked with than I'd had before then, but the scandal blew over in about a week when something else came up.

It's different for someone who's in the public eye who's closeted. I think everyone is entitled to a private life, so I'm completely against it from that point of view, but if someone's being a hypocrite, they're asking for it.

When it comes to gossip columnists, I think people who make a living from bitching about and outing celebrities are vile, slanderous parasites who should really try to find something they love about themselves rather than trying to make themselves feel better by destroying other people's lives and/or self-esteem.

If someone's screwing around behind their partner's back, then yes, their partner should be told. And before anyone asks, no, I didn't screw around behind my ex's back before we split up. I wanted to, which was why I left.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Viking, I also find gossip columnists, gossip tabloids, and the people who support them, to be vile.

 

[Deno]

If the peoples in this world were far more honest and open there wouldn't be an issue of outing. It would be a non issue.

this type of honesty can get you killed in some countries. Just 50 - 60 years ago the US government was raiding business's looking for this type of promiscuity. Even the don't ask don't tell stance of the military tells ya that.

 

[marleyisalegend]

Viking, I also find gossip columnists, gossip tabloids, and the people who support them, to be vile.

A-fucking-men. People say "celebrities shouldn't do this" and "how can they do that," I can't imagine living a normal life when every facet of it is constantly scrutinized. The worst part is how the press has no reservation going after your family or loved ones, friends, associates, anyone you know is put on the chopping block. I can't imagine the world knowing the ins and outs of my family, and walking around having to explain that to every jerk who wants to ask if what they read is true.

 

[DC_DEEP]

this type of honesty can get you killed in some countries. Just 50 - 60 years ago the US government was raiding business's looking for this type of promiscuity. Even the don't ask don't tell stance of the military tells ya that.

And that's part of the point of outing hypocrites. The ones "making the rules" are often the very one who break those rules. And part of the problem with guys who suck cock and call themselves straight. How effective do you think JE Hoover's witch-hunts would have been, had the public known that he was also a witch?

 

[killerb]

And that's part of the point of outing hypocrites. The ones "making the rules" are often the very one who break those rules. And part of the problem with guys who suck cock and call themselves straight. How effective do you think JE Hoover's witch-hunts would have been, had the public known that he was also a witch?

excellent point...