Owning guns a right but education and healthcare isnt?

Klingsor

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Are you talking to yourself? Do you remember the Equal Rights Amendment? It failed to be ratified. However, subsequent Court decisions have pretty much made it the law of the land. One case at a time. Find the term gay marriage in the constitution. Law of the land. Try to pass an amendment to enshrine that. DOA.

Exactly. Some aims that never gained traction as proposed constitutional amendments have been achieved by other means. That aren't amendments.

It is nice to go to a party by way of the front door. However, going by the back door, or the side door still gets you into the party.

Again, you're exactly right: different doors. One of them is an amendment. The others aren't.
 
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temptotalk

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I agree. And if Americans can't give a shit about them killing each other, I'm not sure why anyone else should.

I don't think americans in general care if other countries care about americans killing americans...for the most part. I think they should though cause geography doesn't change the fact that we're still talking about humans. Meaning just about anyone or any country can turn into america (gun wise). Thats why other countries should care. At least enough to understand why it's happening. Cause given time and some other things it could happen in other countries too.

Businesses in other countries can fool people into believing complete an utter bullshit enough for them to hand over every last dime they have to a cause that not only isn't in their best interest but actually allows them to harm themselves much more often and effectively. Not only can it happen but i'm pretty sure it already is happening. Just maybe not so much with the guns.

So no. No one HAS to care. Just don't be upset when something similar happens in your country and you don't have enough information to do anything about it (not that information is all that effective regarding america's gun problem...cause damn...this shit is insane). We human beings are cyclical like that. Many of the same tactics we use can be found in many many different catagories/issues/problems/revolutions/coups/whatever.
 
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Well, gee, let's think about it. Are guns provided at taxpayer expense?

There's your answer.

A right to something doesn't mean you're entitled to have someone else pay for it.

It's not complicated.

Of course guns are provided at taxpayers expense. You have a military and forces to protect your arse don't you? But no provision for those who need health protection, but plenty of wealth protection.
 
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Drifterwood

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I don't think americans in general care if other countries care about americans killing americans...for the most part. I think they should though cause geography doesn't change the fact that we're still talking about humans. Meaning just about anyone or any country can turn into america (gun wise). Thats why other countries should care. At least enough to understand why it's happening. Cause given time and some other things it could happen in other countries too.

Businesses in other countries can fool people into believing complete an utter bullshit enough for them to hand over every last dime they have to a cause that not only isn't in their best interest but actually allows them to harm themselves much more often and effectively. Not only can it happen but i'm pretty sure it already is happening. Just maybe not so much with the guns.

So no. No one HAS to care. Just don't be upset when something similar happens in your country and you don't have enough information to do anything about it (not that information is all that effective regarding america's gun problem...cause damn...this shit is insane). We human beings are cyclical like that. Many of the same tactics we use can be found in many many different catagories/issues/problems/revolutions/coups/whatever.

We banned handguns, period, after a mass shooting in Dunblane twenty years ago and really tightened the licensing of shotguns and rifles.

Perhaps instead of patronising other people, you could have the humility to learn from others.
 
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StormfrontFL

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We banned handguns, period, after a mass shooting in Dunblane twenty years ago and really tightened the licensing of shotguns and rifles.

Perhaps instead of patronising other people, you could have the humility to learn from others.
Sadly it'll never happen. We have leaders who tell us that we are the ideal the rest of the world aspires to be so the ideas are planted that we shouldn't change no matter what. The mentality needs to change first.
 
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Drifterwood

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Sadly it'll never happen. We have leaders who tell us that we are the ideal the rest of the world aspires to be so the ideas are planted that we shouldn't change no matter what. The mentality needs to change first.

@Jason can give you a considered opinion on American exceptionalism. I do however agree that unquestioning nationalism can be a by product of nation building. The U.S. Is certainly not alone in this, but the label of being un-American for any type of re visionary history to the prescribed dogma is not helpful. I did read an Americam commentator make the observation that the U.S. Is a first world nation with a third world gun and crime problem. The only first world nation with this condition. I am fairly sure that those who penned the constitution did not intend it to become almost akin to sharia law.
 

keenobserver

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@Jason can give you a considered opinion on American exceptionalism. I do however agree that unquestioning nationalism can be a by product of nation building. The U.S. Is certainly not alone in this, but the label of being un-American for any type of re visionary history to the prescribed dogma is not helpful. I did read an Americam commentator make the observation that the U.S. Is a first world nation with a third world gun and crime problem. The only first world nation with this condition. I am fairly sure that those who penned the constitution did not intend it to become almost akin to sharia law.

In America guns have been woven into our fabric for generations. The settling of the West - fighting Indians, killing off the Buffalo, protecting individuals from thieves in the absence of law enforcement, etc. It is also stressed that gun ownership is vital to keeping an oppressive government in check. The theory goes that a few well armed militia men will keep the US Marines at bay when they come to make sure we have the worse than slavery Obamacare. The clincher is the propaganda that as soon as they put any limit on gun ownership at all it means the commie takeover has begun. Amazingly many people buy into this crap on an epic level.

I don't have an issue with guns for protection, sport, and hunting. I think background check should be stringent and required for every single gun transaction any where. We need to have more information about mental health issues available to identify people who should not be in possession of a butter knife, let alone a gun. The gun interests own nearly every state legislature - this is why carry laws are passing at a record rate. Their influence in Washington is already well documented.

If any single school shooting has not motivated enough voters to throw these bastards out - I sure as hell do not know what will. Even very reasonable efforts to address this problem have failed. It is against Federal law to use Federal money to ever study gun violence. Think about that. You are right that the founders did not intend what we have become - the NRA did.
 

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In America guns have been woven into our fabric for generations.

In the UK cigarettes have been woven into our fabric for generations.

Until quite recently men smoked. I suppose there were exceptions, but most men smoked and not to smoke was odd, not macho, not sociable, even not British. This view has now completely changed. It's now a minority who smoke and even that minority are aware that what they are doing is damaging to them and others. Social norms can change.

The USA has to change the norm about gun ownership, and just how it does this is up to the USA. However it has to change. It is a difficult issue for other nations to put pressure on the USA, but maybe this has to be done.
 
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temptotalk

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We banned handguns, period, after a mass shooting in Dunblane twenty years ago and really tightened the licensing of shotguns and rifles.

Perhaps instead of patronising other people, you could have the humility to learn from others.

Pretty sure it's a little deep into the game for america to learn from others with regards to guns. I was hinting at other things but when it comes to guns, america is of course number one. And thats because of business/corporations an what not. The "from my cold dead hands" thing was nothing but a marketing phrase. Something most human are susceptible to but america more so. That seems to be the larger problem. Businesses and corporations in america being able to push agendas in the political realm and the public just following suit.

I don't know at this point i'm beginning to think it's a psychological issue.
 
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keenobserver

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In the UK cigarettes have been woven into our fabric for generations.

Until quite recently men smoked. I suppose there were exceptions, but most men smoked and not to smoke was odd, not macho, not sociable, even not British. This view has now completely changed. It's now a minority who smoke and even that minority are aware that what they are doing is damaging to them and others. Social norms can change.

The USA has to change the norm about gun ownership, and just how it does this is up to the USA. However it has to change. It is a difficult issue for other nations to put pressure on the USA, but maybe this has to be done.

I agree but change will have to come from within. We rarely respond to external pressure.
 

vince

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Everyone keeps saying it's a "mental health issue". "America needs to address the mental health issue". "Guns don't kill people, peopel kill people". Et cetera, et cetera..... Given the gun death rate, does this mean Americans are 5 times crazier than the rest of the world?

I think not and that the argument point the gun lobby's toadies make (looking at you, Paul Ryan), is a bs diversion. The kid who killed at Newtown had a Dad who was an executive at General Electric and had the wealth to be seeing two shrinks. There was no lack of resources for Adam Lanza, yet he still killed 20 little kids. The other thing he had was easy access to guns and that's what gave him the means to act out his dementia.

Sadly it'll never happen. We have leaders who tell us that we are the ideal the rest of the world aspires to be so the ideas are planted that we shouldn't change no matter what. The mentality needs to change first.

Not only leaders. You tell it to each other.
 
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Everyone keeps saying it's a "mental health issue". "America needs to address the mental health issue". "Guns don't kill people, peopel kill people". Et cetera, et cetera..... Given the gun death rate, does this mean Americans are 5 times crazier than the rest of the world?

I think not and that the argument point the gun lobby's toadies make (looking at you, Paul Ryan), is a bs diversion. The kid who killed at Newtown had a Dad who was an executive at General Electric and had the wealth to be seeing two shrinks. There was no lack of resources for Adam Lanza, yet he still killed 20 little kids. The other thing he had was easy access to guns and that's what gave him the means to act out his dementia.



Not only leaders. You tell it to each other.
^^^This is why US citizens need their guns, to protect themselves from the crazy people who are able to have easy access to guns.

Bring in laws to prevent crazy people from accessing guns is crazy, it might be one less reason to need a gun.... therefore it translates into threatening the right to own a gun..... which mutates into the government taking away the rights to own any and all guns to protect people from crazy people with guns. Perfectly sane argumento_O, not the slightest little bit paranoid at all[/QUOTE]

Who needs healthcare when you have yer gun to solve mental health issues.
 
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beverly-hillbillies.jpg
The Law and Grannies healthcare in Beverly Hills :)
 

Fuzzy_

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Thomas Jefferson supported rewriting the Constitution every 19 years, equated not doing so to being 'enslaved to the prior generation'.

And the ability to amend it is built in. But the constituionalists treat it as a holy document that cannot be altered.... even though it was... 27 times.

For you to say that human rights are not limited by laws is true. Our rights are natural; antecedent to any government or constitution. Our rights do not come from the Constitution, which is what you then seem to imply.

The sky isn't falling, The Walking Dead
isn't real, and guns are not inalienable.
 
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Bigwhiteschlong

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I'm thinking maybe this thread started off on the wrong foot. Are we talking the right to own/purchase a gun or the idiocy of not having guns controlled?

What do you mean by having guns "controlled"? (I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just asking).


Cause theres a large difference.

Is there? There have been assault weapons bans in the name of gun control that obviously infringe on the right to own/purchase guns, so again what do you mean by gun control?

Guns will never be banned completely but should we create some sort of control over those guns because well.. people are being murdered left and right?

People are murdered brutally even in countries which completely ban guns.

Personally though... yeah i think people should have just as much a right to healthcare, education and etc as guns. Problem is, it's easier to kill someone/buy a gun than to help/teach/care for someone. It's also cheaper. I'm guessing thats the point. America would rather kill each other then to have to pay for each other in any way shape or form.

Probelm is the right to healthcare involves money coming out of other people's pockets to pay for you. If the Government forced others to pay for peoples guns then those three things would be identical.