Pelosi: VAT Tax for Healthcare

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Trinity, Oct 9, 2009.

  1. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Oh come on, you knew it was coming! Don't act surprised. Pelosi dropped a bomb and let it slip or rather floated the idea that a Value Added Tax was "on the table."

    The Democrats have the wrong HealthCare Reform. We cannot afford the Democratic Agenda! Pelosi went on to explain that it would help cover healthcare costs:

    "Somewhere along the way, a value-added tax plays into this. Of course, we want to take down the healthcare cost, that's one part of it," the Speaker added. "But in the scheme of things, I think it's fair look at a value- added tax as well." - Nancy Pelosi from The Hill.com

    Pelosi insisted that the VAT Tax she proposed would not adversely affect middle-class Americans but members of her own party know that's not true:

    The Hill.com

    If you believe Pelosi...that you won't be paying more for healthcare and getting less for it then you want to be fooled.

    The Democrats need to kill all of their crap bills and start over working for real healthcare reform that won't break Americans or our economy.
     
  2. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    You're beginning to sound like a broken record as health care reform gets closer and closer to being passed. Miss gloom and doom.
     
  3. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Not really. 150 Democrats know that these taxes and fees are crazy! Blue Dogs and Progressives have publically told Pelosi that the final bill shouldn't include them. Back to the drawing board.
     
  4. Flashy

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    with all due respect, i really do not know how any self-respecting liberal, or democrat, can be so enthused about another regressive tax that hurts the middle and lower classes.

    the tobacco tax already hurts the middle and poor harder, and is regressive, next, the VAT will hit...

    then in 2010, Obama will let the Bush tax cuts lapse, and the top rate will go from 35 to 36.9 but more importantly, the 33% bracket will go up as well.

    on top of that, spending will go up as well.

    this is a recipe for disaster.

    it is great to see that the democrats are charging headlong to catch up with the incompetence of the republicans.
     
  5. Phil Ayesho

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    Watch Keith Olberman's hour long special comment from Wednesdays show.

    Trinity, no true Christian can oppose national health care. Fuck your politics and your incessant whining about the fact that the running a world leading nation costs money.

    Fuck your stupid and fearful hysterics over the imaginary threats of socialism.

    This is a MORAL issue. nothing less.
    THis is literally, Life and death, and whether your neighbors are going to have to choose to lose a lifetime's worth of productive contribution, all because they have a loved one who they don't want to die.

    Private insurances take 30% of all money for healthcare in this country and they do not provide ANY component of health care... other than jacking up the price and down the amount they will pay... and for whom they will pay it.

    THERE IS ONLY ONE ETHICAL AND MORAL POSITION ON THIS ISSUE.

    EVERYBODY should have equal access to everything we have learned about how to keep death at bay.

    I do not want ANYONE having to choose between seeing a doctor about some lump they found... and not wanting their family to be bankrupted in trying to save their life.


    AND I DON'T FUCKING CARE IF IT MEANS RAISING MY TAXES, YOUR TAXES, AND EVERYBODY ELSE'S TAXES.

    I don't fucking care because this is life and death. I would run into a burning building to save YOUR son. And if I would lay my life on the line for a perfect stranger, how much less is it asking of me to pay a little more in taxes...

    OR FUCK THAT, I throw in with Olberman....let me PICK where the money I already pay in taxes gets spent...

    I don't want my money going to pay for the ammunition and missiles and robot planes to KILL women and children in Iraq, or Afghanistan.

    Spend my money on saving lives... spend my money saving the life of my neighbor, of the poor people who are even less able to afford the drugs that will extend their lives, or their child's life, even ONE MORE DAY.

    Fuck you and your skinflint, self centered, fear mongering, chicken shit WHINING over politics, over taxes, over every fucking petty little distractions from the REAL ISSUE.

    This is about dying. This is about profiteering off of the pain and suffering of our families, our friends and our neighbors.

    Its about whether our government is going to allow our very lives to be toyed with, over profits that do not contribute to saving a single life.

    120 americans die every fucking day, for lack of insurance.
    Half of those WITH insurance will be bankrupted by the first significant illness they are unlucky enough to suffer.

    The problem is not healthcare.

    It is INSURANCE.

    We do not need to fix our hospitals.
    We need to eliminate the bean counters and speculators who make MORE money, if we get worse care, or no care.


    Anyone who does not support Medicare for Everyone... who does not support a national health care system is either Stupid, Immoral, or Both.
     
    #5 Phil Ayesho, Oct 9, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2009
  6. TurkeyWithaSunburn

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    Nice to see there is branching out from just Anti-Obama to Anti-Democrat too. :rolleyes:

    Sure put a VAT tax in place. But cut the income taxes in the middle income earners. The US is the biggest consumer in the world. Might as well make it benefit everybody when everybody wants to keep up with the Joneses.

    Put a VAT on gasoline/diesel. Hasn't the national tax been limited to 18.4cents per gallon for how many years? That isn't indexed for inflation but Social Security payouts are? Implement an immediate boost to gas taxes, say a dime. And then gradually increase it til it reaches the real VAT rate. It's estimated that American military in the Gulf costs $100B, NOT including the Iraq stuff. What would be wrong with seeing that reflected in your face to people? Surely life is more important than oil.

    It's too expensive, it's too expensive, blah blah blah. Well I don't see anyone wanting to tell grandma to starve, or telling people to cut the defense department or homeland security. If you were serious about all of this "too expensive" reactionary contrived argument you'd be coming up with ways to cut spending and pay down the debt. Over time national healthcare will save money because instead of going to the ER for a cold you'll go to a doctor for significantly less.

    Making people carefully choose what to buy instead of just buying things at the drop of a hat would be a good thing, and a VAT might make people do that. Prices would go up oh panic, panic. But wouldn't the marketplace become that much more efficient to give a lower price?
     
  7. javyn

    javyn New Member

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    If that's true, you can stick a fork in Healthcare reform and call it done. Last time they tried to institute a VAT tax in America (called the Stamp Act) we had a real Tea Party and a Revolution right afterwards. Ask the UK how that went.
     
  8. Phil Ayesho

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    Pay sales tax on anything lately?

    That is all VAT

    And by the way, the Stamp act was NOT a value added tax.
     
  9. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Obama and the Democratic Agenda is deficit spending us into the poor house because they don't know how to run a world leading nation.

    Obama and the Democrats have the wrong reform to solve the moral issue.

    So legislate that they can't do that and then enforce it. The federal government needs to be regulating not taking over the healthcare insurance industry. The Federal Govt has enough programs that are insolvent.

    The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Even the Baucus bill leaves 25 million uninsured. Burdening down the American people in taxes and breaking our economy for something that won't do what it is intended to do is madness.

    They won't have it with the Democratic bills. The government control dictates what will be provided and to keep the program going tough decisions have to be made on healthcare rationing. Do you want beauracrats deciding on your healthcare based on our deficit, debt, or budget?

    Democrats could legislate catastrophic care, no limits without taking over the health insurance industry.

    I care about my taxes going up...and most Americans do to.

    It is life or death and the Democrats do not have the plan that will save lives.
     
  10. Phil Ayesho

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    Bullshit opinion unsupported by evidence. Clinton ran it fine, and balanced the fucking budget. Republicans ran it into a brick fucking wall.

    WHO racked up the biggest deficits in US history? Oh yeah, REAGAN and BUSH JR.



    I agree.
    They have compromised far too much with conservatives who spent 8 years proving they can't run a lemonade stand, much less a nation.
    We need to ELIMINATE private insurers entirely.
    The day after we do that, healthcare costs in the US will DROP immediately by 30%.




    You are an ignorant tool of misinformation.
    Guess what? Government run programs DO NOT HAVE TO BE SOLVENT.
    The Defense department is NOT solvent... it is ALL EXPENDITURE and that expenditure rises every fucking year.

    The Healthcare Industry is holding a fucking GUN to the heads of the American consumer... its our LIVES on the line.... that is NOT a free market because I do not really have any alternative to seeking care but to DIE.

    It is IMMORAL to profit from the suffering of others.
    Period.



    When taxes on the rich were 50%, they STILL MADE MONEY- in fact it was the era in which the interstate highways were built.
    And the last time the US enjoyed double digit growth.

    You have zero evidence that higher taxes harm the economy, and I have oodles of evidence that lowered taxes over the past 8 years have fucked up the entire country.

    Quite yer fucking infantile whining about paying your fucking share for the government.
    And, BTW Looking at us as THE MANY, instead of just your bottom line, we are ALREADY PAYING FOR HEALTHCARE.

    National Healthcare would cost us LESS- MUCH less divided among the many.
    We are, right now, paying Twice as much as Canada, for far worse results in longevity and health.

    YOU pay for the uninsured, one way or another... its just that 30% of what you pay for the uninsured doesn't go to pay for treatments, it goes into the pocket of a middle man whose only job is to make sure it costs you as much as it can, in return for a little care as they can get away with.


    THIS IS STUPID IGNORANT IDIOCY.
    Right now you have ACCOUNTANTS and LAWYERS deciding on your healthcare.
    DO you want a LAWYER looking over your claim and the paperwork you filled out 12 years ago, seeing if he can find some loophole thru which to deny you coverage? Because, PAL, THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.
    They take your money, and pay for your checkups, as long as you are paying IN far more than you are taking out, no problems... '
    The minute you start needing to take out more than you are paying in, THAT is when they hand your file to a guy who is PAID to LIMIT your access to care.

    A bureaucrat is NOT gonna get a bonus for denying me care.
    A bureaucrat is NOT gonna get a percentage of the money he DOSN"T allow for my care.

    RIGHT FUCKING NOW you and me, and every other American are Trusting a bureaucrat to ensure our drinking water is safe... we are trusting a bureaucrat to keep our nuclear weapons from going off, a reactor from melting down, and mad cow disease out of our hamburgers.
    Right fucking now we are trusting a bureaucrat develop and distribute a Vaccine for swine flu, we are trusting a bureaucrat to keep our roads paved and the shit we flush down the toilet from backing up. We are trusting a bureaucrat to make sure some commercial trucking company isn't filling the highway with overloaded trucks driving on bald tires with no brakes, just because they would make a little extra profit if they could...

    The List of things YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT because you CAN trust a bureaucrat to handle it WITHOUT being incentivized to act against your interests would fill an encyclopedia.

    Your mistrust of government is unsupported and foolish.
    The ONLY agent in the game who is NOT out to fuck you in the ass over money is your govenrment.


    Bullshit. as long as the industry is making hundreds of billions in PROFIT on YOUR suffering, they will continue to BUY influence over legislation that seeks to regulate their cash cow.

    You seem wholly incapable of comprehending that the insurance industry profits DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO CARE- they only add to the cost.
    And The Very Potential for that profit drives them to REDUCE the care they offer, and the number of people to whom they offer it.
    As Long as there is a MARGIN to be made on increasing costs and decreasing actual care paid for, THAT IS THE FORCE DRIVING THEIR ACTIONS.

    Private health insurance, by its very existence, will always seek every avenue to reduce the amount they pay out and maximize the amount they take in.
    That is the position you are defending.

    Whereas, in government run systems, like medicare, only 4% goes to administration. and the health care PROVIDERS still profit.

    The corporations that invent and manufacture mail sorting equipment profit from the equipment they sell the post office...
    The post office simply does not charge a MARKUP on that cost, to you.
    THAT is why the post office is ALWAYS less costly than UPS for the SAME FUCKING SERVICE.


    Yeah, but you object unreasonably. You are PAYING for health care, one way or the other... who you make make the check out to makes no difference to your bank account, the money is gone either way.

    If you have a choice between paying 300 bucks per month to the government in taxes to cover healthcare, knowing your government will cover everything and never deny you coverage for any reason, ... or paying 390 bucks per month to a private insurer, who you are going to have to fight with to get procedures approved, and still not even have the full bill covered...
    then you would be an idiot to pay the higher amount for less secure coverage.

    Plus- if EVERYBODY is paying into the system, because EVERYBODY will someday need health care ( which is the fundamental idea os insurance to begin with ) Then YOUR costs will actually go DOWN, because you will not have to be paying for the uninsured who show up at the emergency room when they need care, because there will be no uninsured.

    The MORE paying onto the system, the lower the cost to each person.

    So, no matter how you tally the figures, Private insurance cost you MORE and serves you LESS.


    And the republicans have no plan whatsoever, except to ensure that private insurers get what they paid all those bribes for.
     
    #10 Phil Ayesho, Oct 9, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2009
  11. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Since 2006 Pelosi and a Democratic Congress have held the purse strings and hold responsiblity for the deficit. I said Obama and the Democrats...referring to the current Dems. Obama can't take credit for what Pres. Clinton was able to do after the first Bush. Obama and his party in Congress are running it into that brick wall you mentioned...with no end in sight.

    The day we do that, with no money in our coffers, under he biggest deficits in history, with no solutions to save Medicare, Social Security, with FDIC Broke, The Dollar under attack and at the lowest point in decades, and printing money and monetizing our debt...that day we will pay more for healthcare and get far less.

    The American people don't support the single payer system. And ther is no majority in support of Government take over of private health insurance.

    Read a few articles and educate yourself. Medicare and Social Security funds are going bankrupt. We don't need rationing of healthcare because the Democrat refuse to recognize the their flawed plan won't work and the current economic situaion requires a different approach.

    Canadians pay so much more in taxes for basic care and healthcare costs are out of control so basic coverage is cut and Canadians purchase private insurance under which rates go up due to costs. :rolleyes: They have Province taxes and a VAT tax. They pay much for everything. And they pay for add'l private insurance if they can afford it. For those who can't afford good care? The wait in lines and receive rationed care.
     
  12. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    Pure and simple. Thank you.
     
  13. HazelGod

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    :biglaugh:

    In addition to all its other mental afflictions, I see the OP suffers from RAS Syndrome as well.
     
  14. vince

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    You don't know what you are talking about. Your comment about "those who can't afford good care" is pure bullshit. I have normal everyday run-of-the-mill, BC Provincial Health Care and never wait for anything. Nor do my family and friends.

    Please confine your comments to the American healthcare system. You clearly know nothing about ours.

    PS- I'm quite happy to pay whatever taxes we have to for our wonderful, life-saving (mine), affordable, single-payer system. Last time I checked, it's less expensive than yours.
     
  15. javyn

    javyn New Member

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    The royal stamp was required to legitimize most business documents at that time, taxing it is the same as a VAT.

    A sales tax is not a VAT, it's a flat consumption tax. The VAT taxes every level of production, the sales tax does not. Big difference.
     
  16. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    I know what I'm talking about:

    Vancouver Sun

    Vancouver Sun


    B.C. budget fails to protect health care, education: critics

    Americans don't want this to happen to us. More than 80% are happy with their healthcare. The Democrats don't have the right reform.
     
  17. vince

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    No you don't. You cherry pick your sources and selectively quote the content that supports your "point".

    I can do the same from your Vancouver Sun article-

    "The revised provincial budget unveiled Tuesday said maximum monthly premium rates will increase by $3 per month for single people and $6 per month for families."

    A pack of cigarettes costs $8.00 in BC.

    I'm glad to pay an extra 6 dollars per month to cover my family's healthcare costs in our single-payer, universal system. Six dollars is nothing.

    All the the people quoted in the articles are NDP members or members of large unions who support the NDP. FYI, the NDP is the left-wing opposition party in B.C.. They are the staunch defenders of all social programmes. The party in government are the BC Liberals. They are considered right-wing in BC, but I'd put them in about the same place as the US democrats on the poltical spectrum.

    Just like in the US, the politicians on both sides have their axes to grind and lies to tell. Don't make the mistake of being taking in by what you read or hear them say in the media. It's easy to stay in your comfort zone and swallow whatever info support your POV.

    I don't care what sources you can cite that condemn Canadian healthcare. I have lived for years on both sides of the border and I know from personal experience which system is better. Is it perfect in Canada? No. Could it be improved? Yes. Does the American system have some advantages? Maybe, depending on who you are.

    The single-payer, not-for-profit insurance system is less expensive, fairer, less bureaucratic, easier to understand, and all-around better for sick people than the US model.
     
  18. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    I didn't cherry-pick anything. I supported the points I actually made. Canadians pay higher taxes...way more than Americans pay in the U.S. for your health care and your costs continue to rise for your health care premiums. If premiums went up 6 dollars a month after paying close to 50% of their income most Americans would be livid...particularly when wait times and quality of care are a nagging issue with that health care.

    There are other people in B.C. that have a very different experience with healthcare than you do and who are seeking out private care and who are more open to private insurance because of the issues with your single-payer system and wait times impeding their quality of care:

    In Canada, a move toward a private healthcare option
    See that's where you get me wrong. I'm not trying to condemn Canadian healthcare or take anything away from your experience with it. Just like you recognize advantages to our system, I recognize advantages in yours. However, it is your opinion that your system is better. I have my opinion and it is based on the facts that I presented so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I do.

    While less of your GDP is spent on your system the trade off is rationing of care. The rest of that statement is simply your opinion. Nothing you have pointed out makes your opinion fact or truth. You attempted to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Everything I've stated is backed up by the facts.

    My point about "those who can't afford good care" is valid. If private insurance is available in the Province, Canadians are getting it to avoid wait times, long lines and to get higher quality care. If private insurance isn't allowed, Canadians are still seeking private care for the same reasons.

    Canadians do pay a significant amount more in income taxes and VAT Taxes for health care...Americans don't want to pay near 50% of their income plus regular increases in premiums for basic care that is rationed and cut due to economic problems. Americans don't want long wait times or lower quality of care on top of higher taxes and increasing costs.

    Just because you are quite happy to pay whatever taxes you have to for your single payer system. That's you. Most Americans don't want to pay higher taxes. Your Province budget is in deficit and your healthcare system is being cut of services and care:

    In Canada, a move toward a private healthcare option

    The painful hip issue detailed above would be considered nonemergent and elective. Many health issues would be considered nonemergent if you aren't immediately dying but long wait times would reduce your quality of health. And we can argue over many things that aren't elective if you need it but are elective to save the government money it doesn't have to spend. :rolleyes:

    Which brings me full circle to my point. A government-run health insurance system isn't what Americans need. We need our government to fix the problems in our current system and then regulate the industry. The Democrats don't have the right plan. And your system is a prime example of why they don't.
     
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