penduli pendulum

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Shelby, May 3, 2005.

  1. Shelby

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    Does anyone wonder if the (much needed at the time) efforts of grievance groups such as women and/or minorities to acheive equal rights has gone too far?

    I'm probably dousing myself with gas writing this but when I see a strory like this it makes me sick.

    And the whole Letourneau whoop. My mom thinks it's a sweet love story. She's not alone. Imagine if the genders were reversed - the poor guy would probably require solitary to keep him safe from the rest of the inmates.

    How about sexual harrassment? I'm afraid to hold a door open for female coworkers.

    Just felt like ranting. Popular opinion would seem to have it that the reason girls develop eating disorders, minorities can't get a break, etc., etc., ad nauseum are all because of people who look like me.

    Where's the personal responsibilty?
     
  2. surferboy

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    That's wrong. I wouldn't pay child support if a DNA test proved a child wasn't mine.
     
  3. Freddie53

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    I agree. But if it didn't get into the comptuer!!!! And someone was supposed to do it. Then the child services of that state had no record of that court decision.

    An attorney shouldn't have to be retained. All that should be necesary is to take a copy of the judges's order to the child services.

    If the person refuses to accept this. Then file the appropriate appeal. If the appeals are denied. Then the law suit should be filed against those persons doing the denying. Lawsuits against the state aren't as successful. If you go after the jackasses who is doing this. It is amazing how fast he can validate the judge's order and rescind this rediculous order to pay child support for a child that is not yours.
     
  4. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    A sweet love story? :wow: I don't care what genders are involved: pedophilia is not sweet. By anyone's standard, Mary Kay Letourneau was an adult; Vili Fualaau was a child. As his teacher, she was additionally an authority figure, which made the relationship more than just a bit inappropriate. She is a child molester who later wed her victim.
     
  5. Shelby

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    Right. It shouldn't be that hard to clear up. But what if this guy is not the sharpest tool in the shed? The way the law works in many states now, if you get fingered by the mother as being the father you may well be screwed. All the state has to do is send a letter to the last known address she provides and unless you respond in due time, the state can pin you with paternity. You might have moved and not even know any of this is going on. And you might end up having to come up with legal fees to fight.

    There are those who will say that none of this matters. What really matters is what's best for the child. The truth, however, is there's a whole cottage industry that thrives on this obviously fucked up system.
     
  6. Shelby

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    A sweet love story? :wow: I don't care what genders are involved: pedophilia is not sweet. By anyone's standard, Mary Kay Letourneau was an adult; Vili Fualaau was a child. As his teacher, she was additionally an authority figure, which made the relationship more than just a bit inappropriate. She is a child molester who later wed her victim.
    [post=307546]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]

    I'm with you DMW, totally. My point is that in our culture there's a double standard. Hell Entertainment Tonight or some such tripe picked up the tab on their wedding. If it had been a 27 yr old male and a 12 year old female there would be outrage. I just don't feel the general populace is anywhere near as angry about this as it would be if the roles were reversed.
     
  7. Vix

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    The Letorneau case was just another act of depraved pedophilia imo. I agree with DMW, it was all the more inappropriate given her authority over the kid.

    Vix
     
  8. madame_zora

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    Shelby, I think you're right. It's the same crime nomatter what the genders are. Perhaps it's the old concept of if a woman gets raped it's a tragedy, if a man gets raped it's a favor (yes, a judge actually said this once, I can't remember the case). It's bullshit and discredits actual victims who need support.

    Child support laws are an extremely innefective attempt to try to fix the older even less effective problem of male abandonment. Women are the ones who get pregnant and have been left "holding the bag" alone, smugly scoffed at by society, despised for being on welfare, had difficulties finding jobs and daycare that leave enough money to survive and adequately raise a child. Without the help of the father, it's a horrible situation. Beaurocrasy does little to help anything, and I personally know of a couple of men who are in situations where they are being required to pay far more than what is needed and not being given adequate visitation rights by the mothers. Yes, it's an ugly role reversal, and I don't know the solution. One thing is clear though, if the "Honour system" was working, we wouldn't have needed the laws.

    Unfortunately, (historically, in this country) white men have caused the majority of the problems with racism, sexism, sexual harassment, and the issues for which the activist groups have arisen to protest. This is just history as it occured, there's no way to say it didn't happen like that. Now, I in no way believe that anyone should pay for the sins of their forebearers, but I do believe adjustments need to be made currently to make our country more accomodating to more people. White men are feeling the brunt of this adjustment, and it surely isn't "fair" to the ones living now, just like it hasn't been fair or even humane to the non-whites and non-males throughout our nations' history, and still isn't today in many places. White males have enjoyed a position of entitlement as a ruling class that is currently being challeneged. Sure, they won't like it, why would they? For these same reasons, you must understand that no one else likes being made to feel inferior to you just so you can continue being superior! My ex and I had this argument all the time, that the white man was losing groud. That's true, because they had ALL of it to begin with! Of course, sharing means giving up part of the pie, and I know it's going to feel uncomfortable, but someone (generationally) is going to have to do it. Eventually, people will be born who won't remember the situation we're in, and I look forward to that eagerly.

    Yes, the pendulum is swinging, perhaps it seems it has overswung, but look at the numbers before coming to those kinds of conclusions. The individual injustices to men are JUST as horrible as the ones to women, but the ones to women are still by a landslide more plentiful. We still earn less, have NINE times greater chance of having our jobs threatened for not giving sexual favors, are the victims in over 97% of adult rapes (hard to get good statistics on child molestation because of the protection of minor's identities), are the victims of 95% of spousal abuse calls, as reported by police. Minorities still earn less that white women. Until a more acceptable balance is struck, I doubt the reform groups are going anywhere. Good system? NO! But it's all we've got and it beats the hell out of just rolling over.
     
  9. Shelby

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    I honestly expected to be thrashed and instead get a balanced, well thought out and reasoned response.

    You, MZ, never cease to amaze. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Dr Rock

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    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    oh dude you are so square. personal responsibility is SO uncool these days. don't you just wanna surrender your troublesome self-respect, suck down the delicious government-endorsed consumer cock, and be a witless, shitless, parasitic drone like the rest of us?

    what? why not??

    well someone had better LOCK YOU UP before your DANGEROUS VIEWS make someone cry, you goddamn RECIDIVIST
     
  11. madame_zora

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    Shelby, I have never advocated anything BUT personal responbibility! I thought your post had a lot of merit, just wanted to add another insight or two to the mix. I completely agree that there are plenty of people who are attempting to ride the gravy train and I find that just as abhorent as the original injustices that occured. Thanks for not calling me a windbag.
     
  12. surferboy

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    I refuse to believe anyone is that ignorant. Oh wait, the judge that dismissed mommy's case against her stalker of an ex-fiance is a douche bag too, so...I can't believe shit like that still surprises me. Maybe I have too much faith in humanity, yah?
     
  13. Imported

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    carolinacurious:
    Actually, I don't. I think certain individuals have gone too far.

    I think men's advocacy groups have been largely non-existent. I agree with Zora that the problem is more frequently dead beat dads. But I'm with Knight, I ain't paying no child support for a kid who ain't mine (when I was lied too, didn't adopt ect.)

    I also take a pretty dim view of the situation where a woman gets pregnant and then sort of vanishes; never tells the man she is pregnant, never has a discussion about abortion, custody, or marriage but then suddenly shows up a month after the baby is born demanding half of everything the guy makes for the next 20 years with no corresponding offer of custody. Is this as common as the dead beat dad problem? almost certainly not. But it does happen. And as long as men can be held legally responsible in this manner, I do think their voices are relevant when it comes to abortion.

    If this guy, Fisher retains the right attorneys, I suspect he'll be walking away with more money from the State of Maine than he ever owed in child support. Is that the best way to handle family matters? Of course not. Is that the best way to handle inept government beauracracy? Hell yes!

    I'm not really sure that anything in here addresses minorities as mentioned in your first post.

    As far as the pendulum swinging, That pendulum has defied gravity and been stuck over on the right for a damn long time as far as I'm concerned.
     
  14. naughty

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    Workin' up a good pot of mad!
    Evening All,

    This topic really sickens me. I have spent countless moments screaming at the television over young women who have mindlessly given their bodies to men over and over again and then end up screaming on the floor when the DNA test tells them that their ride to "fantasy island" is over ! As long as there are programs to help those in need there will always be lazy individuals who attempt to beat the system and then blame society for their own poor choices.

    Shelby,
    I can understand your feelings the pendulum is hitting you and many other hardworking white men hard. But this country has some major karmic retribution coming down and pay day is never pretty. Where you may be trying to live right there are always others who are not and are the cause for many of the corrective measures that we are experiencing today.

    I too feel that if one gender is being asked to grow up so should the other . It reminds me of what my dad told me as a child, "You should never provoke or hit a man betting on the fact that he may have been raised not to touch a woman.You might have an ugly surprise" Bad behavior is bad behavior be it male or female. IF we as women and men want to be taken seriously then we have to stop the triffling behavior on both sides of the gender line.

    I was particularly perturbed this weekend over the young woman who cried "wolf" over her "run for the border". If she had wanted to run away, why did she have to say a hispanic man and woman took her? Leave other people out of your drama.This is the type of irresponsible garbage that has gotten many a good man lynched or put in jail being falsely accused.In addition it has also caused many a legitimate plaintiff to endure humiliation in cases of rape and assault. I hope the mayor of the town throws the book at her.

    Jana,

    Once again your eloquence is astounding .Thank you Thank you!
     
  15. steve319

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    Because she had to inject her own little racist agenda to make her story more "believable" or to boost the sympathy factor.

    Maybe THIS is why the pendulum needs to continue swinging...
    :grr:
     
  16. surferboy

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    About MKL...he's now an adult, yah? I say let them be together.
     
  17. steve319

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    I don't know. His whole sexual outlook is probably all screwed up over his experience. And she should still be locked away.

    Can you imagine the freaky associations he must have developed? Yet, they are "consenting adults" now....(screwed up adults, but consenting, I suppose)...

    ...it's just hard to get warm, fuzzy feelings over a kid growing up to marry his rapist....

    ...or is it just me? I've never been much of a romantic.
    :evilgrin:
     
  18. jonb

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    And yes, Shelby, paying paternity for a child which isn't yours is going too far. I mean, I don't mind getting involved in a child's life even if the child isn't mine, but with paternity, the man obviously doesn't want to do even that.

    Actually, the tolerance for female pedophilia makes sense within gender stereotypes, women being passive and all. Female pedophilia, in such a situation, can easily be mistaken for maternal instincts. Or, as Gloria Steinem put it, "A pedestal is as much a prison as any small, confined space."

    "Ladies first" doesn't count as sexual harassment. Oh, and more of those gender stereotypes: Legally you can sue your boss for sexual harassment, but you'll get called a fag for either not wanting a woman's advances or a man making advances toward you at all.

    At the same time, I'll tell you, Indians still haven't gone far enough. We can't prosecute crimes committed by non-Indians on reservations, for example.

    @Jacinto:
    They had a child, therefore he was pubescent, therefore the clinical classification is ephebophilia, not pedophilia. But just because it isn't a clinical illness doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to control herself. If she were clinically ill, I could pity her.
     
  19. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    I know that, but I was using the legal term rather than a clinical one. I'm sorry, but the MKL story just makes me angry. I am a teacher, and at wrestling practice every day I am in a lockerroom full of naked 14-18 year-old males. Some of the older ones are very attractive (yes, Pete: I look), but it would be grossly inappropriate for me to approach any of them sexually. I would be abandoning my responsibility as a teacher. Mary Kay Letourneau's relationship with Vili Fualaau cannot ever be a 'normal' relationship because the physical and emotional aspects of it were initiated in an atmosphere where they were not equals. If she had waited until Vili were no longer a student of hers and of legal age of consent, I say fine: more power to her. That's not the case. Their relationship will always carry the taint of statutory rape. Add to that the fact that they live in the spotlight of infamy now; that lack of privacy is likely to take its toll on their marriage. She set the stage for her own breakdown, but she's bringing her victim down with her.
     
  20. surferboy

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    I don't know. His whole sexual outlook is probably all screwed up over his experience. And she should still be locked away.

    Can you imagine the freaky associations he must have developed? Yet, they are "consenting adults" now....(screwed up adults, but consenting, I suppose)...

    ...it's just hard to get warm, fuzzy feelings over a kid growing up to marry his rapist....

    ...or is it just me? I've never been much of a romantic.
    :evilgrin:
    [post=307752]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]


    Exactly. They're now consenting adults. who the fuck is our government to say who people can and cannot fuck as adults? And their relationship is beyond fucking. They wanna get married.
     
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