penis size and evolution (semen displacement theory, etc.)

[Snozzle]

There are some severe doubts with this theory.

1. The sperm still in the vagina are actually the losers in the race to the ovum. There is nothing the penis can do about the sperm in the uterus or the Fallopian tubes, the ones it should really be worrying about.

2. The experiments these guys did used bought dildoes and fake vaginas. The dildos were all "circumcised" unlike the ones that evolved. (The theory takes no account of the role, or the roll, of the foreskin.) The vaginas were (as someone pointed out on another forum) designed with interiors that could pull off the mould without breaking, not to accurately reproduce a real vagina (and also to optimally stimulate a penis, which may not be the only priority in life). The dildoes and vaginas were both dead, lacking the muscular/hydraulic aspects of real ones.

@petite: the vagina would evolve to adapt to the penis (and vice versa). The limiting factor might be something like - being too wide open made it susceptible to disease vectors from outside, being too wide open meant it wouldn't contain sperm when the penis was less than maximum sized... something like that.

 

[petite]

There are some severe doubts with this theory.

1. The sperm still in the vagina are actually the losers in the race to the ovum. There is nothing the penis can do about the sperm in the uterus or the Fallopian tubes, the ones it should really be worrying about.

So true.

@petite: the vagina would evolve to adapt to the penis (and vice versa). The limiting factor might be something like - being too wide open made it susceptible to disease vectors from outside, being too wide open meant it wouldn't contain sperm when the penis was less than maximum sized... something like that.

Women with vaginas large enough would be selected until vaginas could get no larger, which I think would the the factor that caused the lag in size, and not their ability to hold sperm. We don't have an unlimited amount of space inside our bodies. We do have other organs in there. Have you ever measured the distance between a woman's pelvic bone and her diaphram? Few women have a distance longer than 12" and that supposes that their vagina is capable of passing beyond (or through or compressing) her other organs in order to reach that maximal depth, which is improbable. I honestly think that vaginal depth was the limiting factor because of the practical limitations of the interiors of our torsos, which is a limiting factor men do not have since your penises hang on the outside of your bodies.

 

[mexdude]

I agree with this. As humanoids evolved a capacity for symbolism, a large penis perhaps became symbolic of high masculinity and thus a way of establishing heirachy among males.

I doubt it, in settlements of early humans, there where necklaces with teeth of predators, that was the sign of masculinity, and if u look in several ancient cultures, its hard fo find a penis based icon, specially represeting "high masculinity"


Its true that to some point penis size increased in humans, but like Snozzle pointed out its all about the quality of the sperm, but in the end the thing that was the factor in human evolution was the brain, the smarter ones with more ideas to provide for their offpring where the ones that survived, so why some men have bigger penises than others?, to my point of view, its just another asset in the human mating ritual, like many others that a man can use to atract the female

 

[petite]

I doubt it, in settlements of early humans, there where necklaces with teeth of predators, that was the sign of masculinity, and if u look in several ancient cultures, its hard fo find a penis based icon, specially represeting "high masculinity"

I suspect that just like today, more than one factor was used to judge masculinity and superiority, with penis size being just one of them.

Speaking of the evidence of primitive cultures, many of them do symbolically represent power and social standing using the symbol of the phallus.

Ever seen these guys? Which one do you think is in charge?

 

[mexdude]

Speaking of the evidence of primitive cultures, many of them do symbolically represent power and social standing using the symbol of the phallus.

Ever seen these guys? Which one do you think is in charge?

Well making a lot of memory in maya and aztec, and other prehispanic cultures, there are very few penis like representations, the ones ive seen that exist, are more about causing pain and fear than masculinity (id rather not go into details, quite painful things to imagine)

 

[petite]

Well making a lot of memory in maya and aztec, and other prehispanic cultures, there are very few penis like representations, the ones ive seen that exist, are more about causing pain and fear than masculinity (id rather not go into details, quite painful things to imagine)

Since those were violent civilizations, isn't that fact that their phallic symbols represent fear and pain simply consistent with those cultures? That doesn't mean that they weren't significant. Besides, pointing out that one culture or another doesn't use a gourd to represent social standing does not mean that phallic symbols or penis size weren't important among those people, or that it wasn't an important factor in our own evolution.

 

[mexdude]

Since those were violent civilizations, isn't that fact that their phallic symbols represent fear and pain simply consistent with those cultures? That doesn't mean that they weren't significant. Besides, pointing out that one culture or another doesn't use a gourd to represent social standing does not mean that phallic symbols or penis size weren't important among those people, or that it wasn't an important factor in our own evolution.

They where as violent as romans, or any other, they did have significanse, but not in a masculine way, as for "important factor" , aparently inmune system strenght also plays a big role in the sucess of an species, i saw one of the recent documentaries about the ancestors of humans (i think it was "lucy" or another older one) , and the factor that they found was the hability to carry more food on the arms, so walking in two legs had that key advantage, cause those ancestors where quite weak and small

 

[petite]

I'm reposting this below, to prevent confusion:

I'm also going to repeat an earlier argument, at the risk of talking in circles. If women really prefer larger penises and that drive for sexual pleasure explains the evolution of the human penis, as you believe, they love big cocks enough that it's driven up the size of human penises until the largest ones can no longer fit into the average female, then why isn't LPSG crawling with horny women seeking a bigger tool for their own pleasure? There should be more women here than eHarmony. Considering how rare truly large penises are, every hung guy should be swimming in more pussy than he can handle. Is that how it is here? Sadly for the membership of LPSG, no, it isn't. LPSG is mostly about men comparing their penises against other men, for one reason or another.

Again, using the logic of the feedback loop, if women's desire for larger cocks explains all of it, where are the women who desire larger cocks? This place is a desert when it comes to size queens, yet it's a vast ocean of large penises.

 

[basincreek]

Evolution, of course, is just the by-product of who is having the most reproductive success. If men with large penises were copulating with more women then more of their genes would have been in the population pool. Eventually that leads to an overall increase in penis size and possibly to adjustments in the receiving vaginas. Why they were copulating with more women than the other men is open to speculation.

 

[petite]

Evolution, of course, is just the by-product of who is having the most reproductive success. If men with large penises were copulating with more women then more of their genes would have been in the population pool. Eventually that leads to an overall increase in penis size and possibly to adjustments in the receiving vaginas. Why they were copulating with more women than the other men is open to speculation.

Yes, and we're speculating about that. And what you wrote was almost accurate... If you'll please forgive me for being nitpicky...

The premise of the OP wasn't that hung men were having more sex, but that the length of their penises made their sperm more competitive. It's just one example of how more sex doesn't necessarily mean a greater survival rate or reproductive success.

Using my example of the peacocks from earlier, the birds who grow the longest tail feathers might have the most sex, but if their offspring have tailfeathers that are too long to evade predators, that's a limiting factor that prevents those offspring from spreading their "even longer tailfeather" genes. So their daddies' carnal fun didn't succeed in moving evolution forward.

My premise is that among social animals, like us, very frequently what drives evolution are social factors, the mechanisms by which those animals operate socially. Considering the fact that women haven't had a choice about whom they mated with, being smaller and weaker before advanced civilization, and once civilization advanced they were generally considered property or second class citizens, and observing how humans behave now, I believe it's been selection by men who are responsible for human penis size, and not selection by women. I don't believe that sexual selection based upon sexual desire is responsible. That attributes too much power to women, power I don't believe we possessed until very recently, not recently enough to affect the evolution of the human penis. And the evidence that women even seek out large penises is entirely absent. It continues to be a myth passed on by men, which actually supports my theory that it's men who care about penis size and believe it's truly significant, not women who think that way.

 

[Markdarcy]

Penis size will increase somewhat in the future because in this day and age women are free to choose their mate.

 

[petite]

Penis size will increase somewhat in the future because in this day and age women are free to choose their mate.

Uh-huh, because all the women who are free to choose are here selecting the menfolk of LPSG over average sized guys, right? Like I said, if that were true, this place would be crawling with more pussy than eHarmony.com

The fact is, nowadays when women are free to choose, size queens are still extremely rare, even for those few the men who have the top 3% largest shlongs on earth.

Also, if that were true, then the largest dildos would be selling out over the smaller "average" sized vibrators and dildos at sex toy shops, right? But they don't! As I pointed out to Basincreek months ago, women don't favor larger toys. The evidence can be found all over the internet at toy shops like Edenfantasys.com For example, the most popular and most highly rated toy at Adamandeve.com is a toy that is 5" long. It has over 1,000 reviews and nearly a five star rating. You should see how many toys get negative reviews for being "too big" and those toys aren't even close in size to most of the big boys here at LPSG.

 

[pcghabsy]

Looking at ancient paintings and carvings, the penises are depicted as rather small. Now that could mean that unlike today's society, small and cut penises were worshiped, or it could mean that penises have grown larger with evolution. Clearly that's what men wish for these days...

Disclaimer: The post need not be taken seriously.

 

[Incocknito]

Humans walk upright. Therefore the penis is on show moreso than in mammals that walk on four legs. So because of that, larger penises will stand out more and should get more female attention.

Is that a good enough reason?

PS yes women are free to choose. Those slutty whores! Choosing: rich men, handsome men, funny men, physically fit men, fat men, bald men, long haired men, short haired men, tall men, short men.

Very few women use penis size as a deciding factor in choosing a mate or a partner.

 

[pcghabsy]

Humans walk upright. Therefore the penis is on show moreso than in mammals that walk on four legs. So because of that, larger penises will stand out more and should get more female attention.

Is that a good enough reason?

Also, if you are uptight, gravity is constantly tugging it down.

Haha, I love such conjecture, its amusing.

 

[petite]

Humans walk upright. Therefore the penis is on show moreso than in mammals that walk on four legs. So because of that, larger penises will stand out more and should get more female attention.

And male attention.

Is that a good enough reason?

It's a good enough reason why the penis might become symbolic of power or masculinity or superiority.

PS yes women are free to choose. Those slutty whores! Choosing: rich men, handsome men, funny men, physically fit men, fat men, bald men, long haired men, short haired men, tall men, short men.

Only in recent history, not long enough to affect human evolution.

Very few women use penis size as a deciding factor in choosing a mate or a partner.

That's what I've been saying.

 

[goobey]

perhaps the gene for a larger penis is tied to some other beneficial gene for the survival of man. A larger penis could be the by-product of some other evolutionary advantage.

 

[D_Edwin Eatser]

I've read somewhere that some sperms have the function of hunter-killers, killing other mens' sperms in the vagina, and assuming a woman has had several recent lovers, the man with the most aggressive sperm fertilizes her. Penis size wouldn't be relevant here.

This takes us back to the (previously discredited) gang-bang theory! I think our ancestors were more promiscuous than we like to think in these post-xtian/mohammedan morality days.

Interestingly most ancient Egyptian male statues and images had massive erections, Victorian archaeologists defaced and obliterated most of them.

 

[Incocknito]

I think the reason fertility gods, etc were depicted with extremely large penises was to make them godlike. A lot of them are so large that no man would ever possess a penis like it. If gods had normal sized or small penises then they wouldn't be very godly.

So just because fertility gods had large penises (and large breasts too for female fertility gods) doesn't mean that large penises were revered. Just that large penises were all part of the deification.

Maybe some civilisations did worship large penises but if they did I would expect to see drawings or statues of regular people with large penises. Gods are expected to be "super"

 

[pcghabsy]

I think the reason fertility gods, etc were depicted with extremely large penises was to make them godlike.

Do you have some examples for this? Because most paintings I have seen have gods / sons of gods depicted with small penises. I think Michelangelo's Adam sums it up pretty well.

It was the demons that were given large penises, I think. Of course, you will have exceptions and cultures where the opposite was true, e.g. Priapus with his insane cock.