penis size and evolution (semen displacement theory, etc.)

petite

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Sorry, dont see this working. You are saying that men with smaller penises respect men with larger penises, give them more respect because of this and allow them to mate more? This would mean the men with bigger penises have more children and pass on their big penises, but it would also mean men who respect big penises have fewer children. So fewer children who have the trait of respecting a big penis. the trait of allowing anyone with a big penis to mate instead of you is genetic suicide.

I believe there's more evidence supporting the theory that males had more selective power than females, and the relatively large human penis is a result of male selection, not female. I don't know how that mechanism worked. Perhaps proto-humans with larger penises were given a higher social status and allowed to mate more frequently with the females. Weirder things have certainly been observed by anthropologists studying native cultures. (Heck, when I took anthropology I learned that there's a native culture that believes that ingestion of sperm is necessary for boys to become men. I'd elaborate about how they expressed that belief, but I'm afraid I'd be banned for discussing icky topics.)

As I stated before, I feel like you can still see a lot of this kind of behavior in humans. What occurs here on LPSG often feels that. There sure are an awful lot of men who want to show off and compare and know who's the biggest here, aren't there? Males are also much more likely to enjoy seeing their own mates with another man, and especially with a man who has a larger penis, than women are likely to enjoy seeing their mate with another woman. Cuckolding as a fetish is extremely rare among women, but not very unusual among men.

People are not the same as animals because they have big brains. The most important thing about people is their ability to decide what they want and work out how to get it. This still applies to women who have one dominating husband to whom they legally belong totally. Women did and do have choice about who they mate with. Without the cooperation of the woman concerned it becomes totally impossible to mate with her in the face of the husband to whom she notionally belongs who is guarding his property. Why would there be all these legal rules saying women are property if the husbands did not think they needed all the help they can get in defending their 'propoperty' from other males? The existence of the rules is proof other males were getting in on the act. It might be argued that in fact these rules help the woman's choice. She has one 'guardian' who has power over her but that guardian is keeping away all those unwelcome would be rapists. Only the ones she chooses get in past the protections.

We have big brains now. Evolving into humans involved many many physical changes, including becoming upright, developing the ability to run, and evolving big brains. And also larger penises.

Within our own written history, there have been few evolutionary advances. The changes we're discussing occurred much earlier than the written word. I only brought up things from our recent history to illustrate how women haven't had any power of choice until just the past few hundred years. But regarding that, you've lost me on the property argument. I don't understand how a woman who is passed from father to husband is choosing her own mate, thus selecting which traits from the male gender of the species will be passed on, which is what is meant by "power" under the concept of sexual selection in evolution. If a woman's father selected her mate, that's one man choosing another man and controlling whose genes hers is mixed with. That type of social behavior confers all the selective power to males.

Why not? Males love a gangbang. Theres nothing like watching someone else having sex to start feeling you want to be doing that right now right there in his place. Presumably that is evolutionarily inherited conditioning at work. It pays to take part in a gangbang or we wouldnt be programmed to do it. Whether the women concerned are willing or unwilling would be entirely beside the point. One of the traits of us clever apes seems to be constant warfare which traditionally includes lots of rape. If you think about the timescales concerned, every human of breeding age might historically be involved in at least one war and that is enough to have a significant impact on the number of offspring you have. Successfull campaign, several gangbangs. So then somehow your sperm have to make it instead of the rest of your platoon. Is it better to go first and get a head start or go last and pump out all that sperm already there before injecting your own spermicide laden mix. (yes, I remember reading something about killer sperm types too). It might be better to be the little guy who is forced to go last because hes small but then his sperm just poisons whats there already. So maybe a killer combination is little guy who is forced to go last but who has big dick and killer sperm.

I know men love to gangbang. What I doubt is that so many women were gangbanged with enough frequency that our evolution into humans was primarily a result of gangbanging. Other than the evidence that human males today enjoy gangbangs, I think there's no other evidence supporting the gangbanging theory. Me and several other posters have already demolished the logic that longer penises makes their sperm more competitive. One poster brought up that it doesn't matter if the semen of other males is pushed out of the vagina, by then the best swimmers have already entered the uterus and it's too late. Hhuck brought up the lack of evidence from convergent evolution, especially given how promiscuous certain species are, like the Bonobo. As I mentioned before, the Bonobo does not have a larger penis than the chimpanzee, even though it has the most sex of all the primates, and indiscriminantly, unlike humans, so if the theory in the OP worked, Bonobos should have the largest penises (relatively) out of all the primates. They don't.

I do believe that rape was common among our ancestors, but not primarily as a result of warfare (But again, once we were civilized enough to have wars, we're no longer talking about evolving into humans any more. We were human.) Rape is common among certain primates, certainly. Female orangutans avoid the males because the males' first impulse is to attempt to rape her, as I just learned this morning in that paper I mentioned earlier.

Which makes men the peacocks. Big muscles or big dicks are not there because of being survival traits in themselves but just to impress the ladies. Which begs the question of whether the ladies would be able to see the aforementioned big dicks before getting hands on. And wehether lying might not be just as effective as having. Which brings us back to big brains. Maybe rules about not being naked in public are again really control mechanisms so that the ladies being controlled do not get to see the competition showing off.

No, human females are the brightly colored long-tailed peacocks. If you're attacked by a predator, do you want to be the gender with all the big muscles who can run faster, or the gender without the big muscles who is slower? Big muscles are obviously a practical survival trait. Women have the less practical bodies for survival. We're less muscular, not as fast, we're not as talll, our small waists that represent fertility to males makes our torsos less strong. Before women have babies, our breasts serve no purpose other than to attract men, which is unique among mammals, most of whom do not grow enlarged mammary glans until after they bear young.

Never bothered me, but then Im not small. It might be that people who are small, or believe they are small, feel inferior about it but the whole issue of size has never attracted me. Small ones are just as interesting as big ones sexually. Now, as far as locker rooms go, that isnt quite the same thing. That is about showing off rather than sexual attraction and people being competitive will argue about who can piss furthest never mind who has the thickest arms.

Exactly my point. Why do men feel the need to show off? Why do they enjoy it? I suspect it's related to how men arrange themselves socially on a hierarchy, like most social animals do, like primates who live in groups and wolves. And comparing penis size is part of that. Women don't feel the need or the desire to compare the size of their breasts to see who has the nicest ones, or the smallest waist. In fact, most women would feel very uncomfortable and negatively about doing something like that. They would hate it.

So genetically, men are programmed to take part in the gangbang because it upps their chance of having offspring, whereas women are programmed to be selective, because they have the power to weed out undesireable mates.

I'm afraid that you seem to have misunderstood what a cuckold is. A man who has a wife would be guaranteeing his sperm fertilizes her eggs if he does not let other men fuck her. Cuckolds are men who invite larger men to fuck their wives, which increases the chances this his own wife would bear the child of another man. He is literally giving his mate to man with a larger penis, which could result in his own wife bearing the offspring of a man with a larger penis. Cuckolds decrease their chances that their own smaller penis' genes would be passed on to his wife's offspring.

But what is a large penis? Surely a large penis is one bigger than is needed to get a female pregnant. I think about 1 in is enough to get a female pregnant, so anything more than this ought to be considered large. The 30% you mention are GINORMOUS.

which is why chemical warfare has been evolved to deal with those. But you still have to deal with the slush waiting in reserve.

For the purpose of his discussion, all human penises that are not micropenises qualify as large, since this is a discussion about why human penises are so much relatively larger than primate penises.
 
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D_Pomeroy Pokingstick

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I appreciate your point, many have been made however you can't be serious when you say that women don't feel the need to compare the size of their breasts to see who has the nicest ones, or the smallest waist.

However men are much more visual it is true, I think it is the one of the main reasons for the ratio to men to women on this site (a fact you stated earlier in this thread)

And since this is an open discussion, it's a bit off topic but it makes me think about how women use their sexuality on the internet and society in general. Internet pay sites (streammate.com etc) are flooded with women who use their breasts, small waists amongst all other things to attract men, for the purposes of money and not sex. The 21st century brothel.

Men give away such visuals for free (as on LPSG) and feel the need to show off for sexual gradification for the most part.

I agree that the evolution of penis size has more to do with the male species, competition for sexual dominance, and has less to do with the female desire for a big dick.



Exactly my point. Why do men feel the need to show off? Why do they enjoy it? I suspect it's related to how men arrange themselves socially on a hierarchy, like most social animals do, like primates who live in groups and wolves. And comparing penis size is part of that. Women don't feel the need to compare the size of their breasts to see who has the nicest ones, or the smallest waist.
QUOTE]
 
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petite

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I appreciate your point, many have been made however you can't be serious when you say that women don't feel the need to compare the size of their breasts to see who has the nicest ones, or the smallest waist.

I believe you misunderstood me. We don't compare them together, socially, which functions in a socially hierarchical way. When two men show their penises to each other, they each know who is larger and who is smaller, they're ranking each other for one another. When women look at another woman and assesses if she's got a better body, it's privately and it's not done for the other women. I don't care if another woman considers me more attractive than her. I care if I believe that men find me more attractive, regardless if she knows that fact or not. Her participation in my assessment of who is better or worse isn't necessary. It's totally different behavior. Female friends don't whip out the measuring tape to find out who is bigger around the bust and who is smaller around the waist for fun. There are no websites where women are posting up pics of their boobs and asking to see other women's boobs to see who is larger or smaller for the pure fun of looking at each other's boobs.

One behavior is showing off for one another, the other behavior is looking to see who might be my competitor, even if she doesn't know that she is.
 
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matthi

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Why, under the same argument would Chimpanzee penises not be equally large?

The data in the book suggests that when you take overall body size into account (so talking about relative penis size now) chimps and humans are pretty close. Plus, the chimps have way bigger balls and ejaculate, which is argued to serve the same purpose -- being more competitive in "gangbang" situations.

matthi, did the authors happen to say when they think human penises began to be significantly larger than those of other primates? I mean, I expect there would be little to no evidence on time frame, but it would help if there was.

Yeah, that data would be nice to have! It seems to be near-impossible to get, though, so this is where comparing size across continents/cultures may be informative (e.g. the infamous "condoms too big" story). The prediction would be that in small-penised communities, there was less "gangbanging".

So as possible alternative theories for large penis size in humans we have:
- dynamic among men that resulted in hung men having more mating opportunities
- larger penis -> more likely female orgasm --> increased probability of pregnancy
- human female vaginas expanding for asexual reasons (e.g. being able to keep babies inside for longer)

(argh, need to go -- edit to follow...)
 

Mithra

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Also, regarding female selection for large penises, I'm going to make my least logical argument yet for it doesn't provide an answer regarding why human penises are larger, but it is a challenge to certain assumptions regarding how genitals would evolve. When browsing through a paper in this journal about the selective forces on primate genitals and human genitals, I observed that in primate species wherein selection was performed by the females, the males all have small genitals. Now, this is a poor argument for all species wherein sexual selection is a factor select for different things, and the lack of female selection for penis size is insignifcant, but it's interesting to think about, especially since so many human males seem to automatically assume that female selection must mean that penises become enlarged over time.

Also, it is interesting to note that even though the Bonobo chimp has sex for pleasure, their penises are not larger than the penises of chimpanzees, which suggests an alternative reason for why human penises are so large.

This isn't true. Humans have the largest penises of any primate by far, followed by our closest relatives, chimps and bonobos. The primates where females have no sexual selection ability, such as mountain gorillas, have the smallest penises.

I'm sure male sexual competition along with female sexual selection account for the human penis size. Why rule out 50% of the species either way?
 

kc2007

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I believe you misunderstood me. We don't compare them together, socially, which functions in a socially hierarchical way. When two men show their penises to each other, they each know who is larger and who is smaller, they're ranking each other for one another. When women look at another woman and assesses if she's got a better body, it's privately and it's not done for the other women. I don't care if another woman considers me more attractive than her. I care if I believe that men find me more attractive, regardless if she knows that fact or not. Her participation in my assessment of who is better or worse isn't necessary. It's totally different behavior. Female friends don't whip out the measuring tape to find out who is bigger around the bust and who is smaller around the waist for fun. There are no websites where women are posting up pics of their boobs and asking to see other women's boobs to see who is larger or smaller for the pure fun of looking at each other's boobs.

One behavior is showing off for one another, the other behavior is looking to see who might be my competitor, even if she doesn't know that she is.

I don't think this is fair argument. I actually think women like to compare in public just as much as men do here, although it might be more subtle. A woman's bust size and waist line and butt are fairly obvious to everyone so when a woman goes out at night or to work or to a beach, they are basically showing off to every other woman. They are doing the same thing, and women take their place accordingly. Like I said, it's just more subtle.

The human penis is much different. First of all you can't compare an erection anywhere but on a website devoted to erections. It only happens when you are aroused, and it's impossible to tell fully dressed. I think if women had such a an organ, that visibly physically changed in state and size when sexually aroused, you'd see a few sites of women comparing as well.
 

D_Pomeroy Pokingstick

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I think you you make some valid points. Comparisons are made by both sexes either way you look at it, regardless if one has a measuring tape, internet site or uses their visual senses in public to make the judgement.

Consider plastic surgery, more women desire and go through breast augmentations then men go through phalloplasty. Why? Well one could argue that just like men who like to compare size, some women take things into their own hands having the surgery, the result is essentially to compare (no, not with a measuring tape) and get noticed by men and women for different reasons.



I don't think this is fair argument. I actually think women like to compare in public just as much as men do here, although it might be more subtle. A woman's bust size and waist line and butt are fairly obvious to everyone so when a woman goes out at night or to work or to a beach, they are basically showing off to every other woman. They are doing the same thing, and women take their place accordingly. Like I said, it's just more subtle.

The human penis is much different. First of all you can't compare an erection anywhere but on a website devoted to erections. It only happens when you are aroused, and it's impossible to tell fully dressed. I think if women had such a an organ, that visibly physically changed in state and size when sexually aroused, you'd see a few sites of women comparing as well.
 
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petite

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This isn't true. Humans have the largest penises of any primate by far, followed by our closest relatives, chimps and bonobos. The primates where females have no sexual selection ability, such as mountain gorillas, have the smallest penises.

I'm sure male sexual competition along with female sexual selection account for the human penis size. Why rule out 50% of the species either way?

I must have expressed myself badly because your correction doesn't contradict anything that I said. I never said that humans don't have the largest penis of all the primates. In fact I keep saying that humans have the largest penis of all the primates, or else I wouldn't be engaged in this discussion, which is about why humans have the largest penis of all the primates.

Let me rephrase what I meant in what I hope is clearer to understand language:

I was saying that with primate species where females are the sexual selectors, those species have small penises. I did not say that they have the smallest penis. That has no actual bearing how the mechanism by which humans developed larger penises, because all species use different mechanisms of sexual selection and the absence of one selective trait by which a gender chooses another to mate with does not mean anything when applied to another species, hence the lack of logic when attempting to apply that knowledge to the particular discussion at hand, but I thought it was something to think about for people who automatically assume that if females are the sexual selectors then penis size must automatically increase so that penises become very large.

Again, that information doesn't say anything about why humans have such large penises, it just challenges the assumption that human females and our genetic cousins would always regard penis size as a selection trait.

I don't think this is fair argument. I actually think women like to compare in public just as much as men do here, although it might be more subtle. A woman's bust size and waist line and butt are fairly obvious to everyone so when a woman goes out at night or to work or to a beach, they are basically showing off to every other woman. They are doing the same thing, and women take their place accordingly. Like I said, it's just more subtle.

The human penis is much different. First of all you can't compare an erection anywhere but on a website devoted to erections. It only happens when you are aroused, and it's impossible to tell fully dressed. I think if women had such a an organ, that visibly physically changed in state and size when sexually aroused, you'd see a few sites of women comparing as well.

I don't agree that it's the same thing at all. Again, I seem to be having a hard time expressing my sentiment. You're focusing on my various wordings like "comparison" and "public" and missing my point. There's an attitude and motivation difference that's responsible for the reason why men and women behave differently that isn't solely about how breasts are able to be seen and penises aren't, and I seem to be having a difficult time describing what I mean in a way that conveys that idea.

In one case it's a situation where both competitors recognize who is superior or inferior, that being an essential motivation for comparing, the praise and approval and recognition from other men, regardless of actual size and in a good natured way, which speaks of it's value as social interaction among men, and in the other case the motivation for comparing is for the attention of a third party and not so that the competitor realizes who is superior or inferior, which means that among women it posses no social value between women themselves, the value of that comparison being to attract the approval and attention of the opposite gender. When women do show each other that they recognize another's "superiority" or "inferiority" it's almost always hostile or at the very least very uncomfortable and extremely unpleasant, which is the reason why women avoid such interactions. Or to put it another way, yes, both genders engage in competitive behavior, but only men actually show off for each other, whereas women only show off their sexual goods for the sake of men.
 
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petite

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I think you you make some valid points. Comparisons are made by both sexes either way you look at it, regardless if one has a measuring tape, internet site or uses their visual senses in public to make the judgement.

Consider plastic surgery, more women desire and go through breast augmentations then men go through phalloplasty. Why? Well one could argue that just like men who like to compare size, some women take things into their own hands having the surgery, the result is essentially to compare (no, not with a measuring tape) and get noticed by men and women for different reasons.

Oh, I just addressed this point in the comment above. Of course both sexes engage in competitive behavior, however there are some essential differences that speak directly towards how one is related to ranking oneself among others on a social heirarchy and how the other behavior is motivated by competing for the sake of landing a mate.
 

overtheshoulder

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I think the answer is much more simple than all this blah blah bah. With the increase in access and developed knowledge of nutrition, the human species grew taller. Yes we are taller now than our forefathers. The fact that the over all body size increased the same goes for the genital size in balance. The fact that men with larger penis sizes are not the majority of the human population rules out pretty much that the bigger penis was the dominant reproducer.
 

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I was saying that with primate species where females are the sexual selectors, those species have small penises. I did not say that they have the smallest penis. That has no actual bearing how the mechanism by which humans developed larger penises, because all species use different mechanisms of sexual selection and the absence of one selective trait by which a gender chooses another to mate with does not mean anything when applied to another species, hence the lack of logic when attempting to apply that knowledge to the particular discussion at hand, but I thought it was something to think about for people who automatically assume that if females are the sexual selectors then penis size must automatically increase so that penises become very large.

No I understood. I think I didn't do a good job explaining how your position is incorrect. It is not true that "primate species where females are the sexual selectors, those species have small penises." - certianly not apes, the subset of primates that humans belong to (I don't know about monkeys as much)

The mountain gorilla is a species that has a "harem" system of mating where one dominant male has sexual access to all the females in his group. The female gorillas have no choice in the matter. The mountain gorilla, while being the largest primate species in existence, is also the one with the smallest penis.

Conversely in chimps, bonobos (and humans), where the female has a role in sexual choice, we observe some of the proportionately largest penises.
 

petite

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No I understood. I think I didn't do a good job explaining how your position is incorrect. It is not true that "primate species where females are the sexual selectors, those species have small penises." - certianly not apes, the subset of primates that humans belong to (I don't know about monkeys as much)

The mountain gorilla is a species that has a "harem" system of mating where one dominant male has sexual access to all the females in his group. The female gorillas have no choice in the matter. The mountain gorilla, while being the largest primate species in existence, is also the one with the smallest penis.

Conversely in chimps, bonobos (and humans), where the female has a role in sexual choice, we observe some of the proportionately largest penises.

Well, then I'm sorry I mentioned it, since it's not important to the question at hand. As I said before, it provides no information regarding how human penises evolved, so it's insignificant. I just thought it was interesting to consider, but evidently not since your opinion of large and small is different than mine, which makes that point doubly moot.

It's all relative. Some sources say that the Silverback Gorilla has the smallest one, but regardless, the Mountain Gorilla is very small and relatively smaller than other great apes, but none are large relative to the human penis. You evidently consider the size difference between the mountain gorilla and other great apes to be of greater significance than I do. Personally, I don't see great variation in penile sizes among any of the great apes, not when compared against humans.

We've reached the point where we're debating over unimportant semantics regarding that. Still, it was interesting to learn something about the mountain gorilla.
 
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basincreek

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Also, it is interesting to note that even though the Bonobo chimp has sex for pleasure, their penises are not larger than the penises of chimpanzees, which suggests an alternative reason for why human penises are so large.

Is it not possible that human females are a bit different from Bonobo females? It is rather well established that a large proportion of women do find larger (to a degree) to be more pleasurable during sex (again to a degree). Dismissing that as non-factor to the equation seems rather rash. Personally I wouldn't doubt there are many other factors as well but I'm inclined to think that must at least be one too.
 

petite

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Is it not possible that human females are a bit different from Bonobo females? It is rather well established that a large proportion of women do find larger (to a degree) to be more pleasurable during sex (again to a degree). Dismissing that as non-factor to the equation seems rather rash. Personally I wouldn't doubt there are many other factors as well but I'm inclined to think that must at least be one too.

Absolutely! It is possible that human females might be different than Bonobo females. I mentioned the Bonobos for the same reason why I mentioned female selection among primates, as a thinkpoint regarding the assumption that pleasure or female selection automatically means "big penis."

As I stated in the comment above yours, pointing out that something does operate in one manner doesn't mean that it's the only answer for all similar situations, however, noticing that something doesn't operate in a particular manner can be more meaningful, especially when people are inclined to make assumptions to the contrary.

To illustrate what I mean in a silly way (because my creativity is failing me atm), suppose you make an assumption that animals cannot fly. Once you've discovered birds can fly, that doesn't mean that all other mammals can, too, but it does mean that you can no longer make an assumption that flying animals are improbable or unlikely.

Likewise, I pointed out that females have selective power among many primates yet they all have small penises (IMO), and that Bonobos have lots of indiscriminate sex for pleasure yet they have small penises. Hence, those scenarios can no longer be considered unlikely.

Really, though, this is unimportant to the actual question of how humans did evolve large penises and is focusing on the inverse question of how they may not have evolved large penises.
 
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Riven650

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I think it might have something to do with our being the only primates that are full time bipeds. It puts the penis on show, whereas baboons show off their lovely blue bums because they go around with their arses sticking out. (How's that for amateur zoology?)
 

petite

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I think it might have something to do with our being the only primates that are full time bipeds. It puts the penis on show, whereas baboons show off their lovely blue bums because they go around with their arses sticking out. (How's that for amateur zoology?)

Incocknito actually proposed the same thing. I don't disagree that it could be a reason why it would become a selective trait.
 

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Incocknito actually proposed the same thing. I don't disagree that it could be a reason why it would become a selective trait.

I hadn't read Incocknito's post petite. But it must be true because my cook got much bigger after I learned to walk on my hind legs.