penis size and evolution (semen displacement theory, etc.)

[Mithra]

Well, then I'm sorry I mentioned it, since it's not important to the question at hand. As I said before, it provides no information regarding how human penises evolved, so it's insignificant. I just thought it was interesting to consider, but evidently not since your opinion of large and small is different than mine, which makes that point doubly moot.

It's all relative. Some sources say that the Silverback Gorilla has the smallest one, but regardless, the Mountain Gorilla is very small and relatively smaller than other great apes, but none are large relative to the human penis. You evidently consider the size difference between the mountain gorilla and other great apes to be of greater significance than I do. Personally, I don't see great variation in penile sizes among any of the great apes, not when compared against humans.

We've reached the point where we're debating over unimportant semantics regarding that. Still, it was interesting to learn something about the mountain gorilla.

I imagine you are sorry you mentioned it. However, lets be clear. The point is not moot. In primates where female selection plays a role in sexual reproduction you find the largest penises have evolved, not the smallest. Opposite to your contention, in primate species where penis size is small, females have the least sexual choice.

I don't know if our opinions of "large" and "small" are different, but that has no bearing on this discussion. The relative scale between two groups of things is not a matter of opinion. We agree that humans have the largest penises of all primates with our closest relatives, bonobos and chimps having the next largest penises. Both bonobos and chimps use female selection in their species' reproductive strategies. We can discuss whether or not female sexual selection has played a role in human evolution, but I'm convinced it has, and like chimps and bonobos, it is one reason why human males have evolved the penises we have.

By the way, a silverback gorilla is the name for an adult male gorilla whose gotten old enough to grow silverish hair on its back. It's not a distinct subset of gorilla species. There are two types of gorillas, mountain gorillas and lowland gorillas but they are not distinct species. Again, gorilla females have no selective power in choosing mates and their males have the smallest penises of all apes.

 

[Riven650]

:lmao:

I didn't think that you were just idea-stealing all over LPSG! :tongue:

I don't dare read back through this thread in case I find that someone's suggested that he, er, you know; him upstairs, made us with great big willies in his image.

 

[petite]

I imagine you are sorry you mentioned it. However, lets be clear. The point is not moot. In primates where female selection plays a role in sexual reproduction you find the largest penises have evolved, not the smallest.

I don't know if our opinions of "large" and "small" are different, but that has no bearing on this discussion. We agree that humans have the largest penises of all primates with our closest relatives, bonobos and chimps having the next largest penises. Both bonobos and chimps use female selection in their species' reproductive strategies. We can discuss whether or not female sexual selection has played a role in human evolution, but I'm convinced it has, and like chimps and bonobos, it is one reason why human males have evolved the penises we have.

By the way, a silverback gorilla is the name for an adult male gorilla whose gotten old enough to grow silverish hair on its back. It's not a distinct subset of gorilla species. There are two types of gorillas, mountain gorillas and lowland gorillas but they are not distinct species. Again, gorilla females have no selective power in choosing mates and their males have the smallest penises of all apes.

Ah, well I explained in the last two long comments and in the original comment that you quoted why I feel that it's not a logically solid argument, so there's no point in repeating myself again. This may simply be an area where we disagree with one another, on both the point and the strength of the logic of it.

 

[petite]

I don't dare read back through this thread in case I find that someone's suggested that he, er, you know; him upstairs, made us with great big willies in his image.

Yeah, uh, dunno what to say to that. If that's what he believes, then that's what he believes. It's called faith for a reason.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

Yet, as Hhuck pointed out, chimpanzees do not have large penises, despite having "gangbanged" for so long, as we know that they do, so that theory seems to hold little water.

There are many many species that reproduce via a penis, so the theory of convergent evolution would surely mean that more mammals would have larger penises than they do.

I only read a few posts, so sorry in advance if there is any redundancy.

Actualy chimpanzees and bonobos have fairly large penisses compared to their body. Those are both very promiscues apes. A gorilla is not, only the silverback (the alfa male) gets to mate with the females. Gorillas have, compared to their body, a tiny penis.
If you go and check the "promiscuity = large penis" theory, you will find it fits for all the primates.

Quote wikipedia: As a general rule, an animal's penis (pizzle) is proportional to its body size, but this varies greatly between species – even between closely related species. For example, an adult gorilla's erect penis is about 4 cm (1.5 in) in length; an adult chimpanzee, significantly smaller (in body size) than a gorilla, has a penis size about double that of the gorilla. In comparison, the humanprimate, both in proportion to body size and in absolute terms. penis is larger than that of any other


Also, i think i heard this on QI, chimpanzees determine the leader of their group by standing upright on their legs. The ape with the biggest balls get's elected leader. This last fact sounds a little strange, and i didn't research it before writing here. But it sure is something funny. Any biologists in the room?

 

[Riven650]

I was hoping I'd made that up. But it's not really very funny. Human cock size though. Now that's funny ) Maybe it's just that SOMEONE had to have the biggest and we got lucky. I guess we're ok until we start comparing with horses. I had a gf who had a horse once. Took me ages to get over that.

Biologist James? Nah. I'll get me coat.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

By the way, a silverback gorilla is the name for an adult male gorilla whose gotten old enough to grow silverish hair on its back. It's not a distinct subset of gorilla species. There are two types of gorillas, mountain gorillas and lowland gorillas but they are not distinct species. Again, gorilla females have no selective power in choosing mates and their males have the smallest penises of all apes.

It is a change in hormones that makes the hair go gray and it has nothing to do with the age of the animal. In every group of gorillas there is only one silverback. It is the alfa male. When a new gorilla establishes himself as an alfa male, there is a hormonal change which makes the hair on his back go gray.
A gorilla can get very old and get no gray hair at all. But it can also be very young and have/be a silverback.

The silverback is the only male who get's to mate, also, he is always the animal that get's to eat first.
Only when he is done eating, the highest ranking female starts to eat, and only when she is finished, the rest of the group can eat.

 

[petite]

I only read a few posts, so sorry in advance if there is any redundancy.

Actualy chimpanzees and bonobos have fairly large penisses compared to their body. Those are both very promiscues apes. A gorilla is not, only the silverback (the alfa male) gets to mate with the females. Gorillas have, compared to their body, a tiny penis.
If you go and check the "promiscuity = large penis" theory, you will find it fits for all the primates.

Quote wikipedia: As a general rule, an animal's penis (pizzle) is proportional to its body size, but this varies greatly between species – even between closely related species. For example, an adult gorilla's erect penis is about 4 cm (1.5 in) in length; an adult chimpanzee, significantly smaller (in body size) than a gorilla, has a penis size about double that of the gorilla. In comparison, the humanprimate, both in proportion to body size and in absolute terms. penis is larger than that of any other


Also, i think i heard this on QI, chimpanzees determine the leader of their group by standing upright on their legs. The ape with the biggest balls get's elected leader. This last fact sounds a little strange, and i didn't research it before writing here. But it sure is something funny. Any biologists in the room?

Yikes, again, large and small is relative. It depends on what you're comparing. This is a discussion regarding why primates have such relatively smaller penises compared to man's penis, so I believe chimps still qualify as small. And bonobos don't have larger penises compared to chimpanzees even though they have the most sex out of all the primates, which was the point I was making about the relationship between sex and penis size. The two comparisons are primate vs human and bonobo vs chimpanzee.

Your selection by bigger balls sounds really interesting.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

I was hoping I'd made that up. But it's not really very funny. Human cock size though. Now that's funny ) Maybe it's just that SOMEONE had to have the biggest and we got lucky. I guess we're ok until we start comparing with horses. I had a gf who had a horse once. Took me ages to get over that.

Biologist James? Nah. I'll get me coat.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Riven650]

That's very interesting JamesJonson (about the silverback eating first, etc.). That's a very 'human' behaviour.

I'd better not elaborate on gf and horse, except to say she thought it was funny to compare me with the horse.

 

[petite]

I was hoping I'd made that up. But it's not really very funny. Human cock size though. Now that's funny ) Maybe it's just that SOMEONE had to have the biggest and we got lucky. I guess we're ok until we start comparing with horses. I had a gf who had a horse once. Took me ages to get over that.

Biologist James? Nah. I'll get me coat.

Now, that's funny!

 

[Mithra]

Ah, well I explained in the last two long comments and in the original comment that you quoted why I feel that it's not a logically solid argument, so there's no point in repeating myself again. This may simply be an area where we disagree with one another, on both the point and the strength of the logic of it.

I just wanted to clarify that your initial observation about primates and penis size was incorrect and actually the opposite was the case (It would be great if you could acknowledge you were incorrect on that, btw). When considering the role of female selection in the evolution of the human species, I think it is important to observe that in species of primates where large penises have evolved females do play a role in sexual selection and here we are with the biggest penises of all primates.

But I guess you can reject that evidence as not significant if its important for you to believe that for most of human history, male rape of females has been the standard for sexual reproduction and not an aberration. If you do harbor such an opinion, I will posit that observing the history of a small pocket of humans in a tiny part of the world (Europe) for the past few centuries is significantly less logical than observing the evolutionary trends of our closest living relatives, the fellow primates.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

Yikes, again, large and small is relative. It depends on what you're comparing. This is a discussion regarding why primates have such relatively smaller penises compared to man's penis, so I believe chimps still qualify as small. And bonobos don't have larger penises compared to chimpanzees even though they have the most sex out of all the primates, which was the point I was making about the relationship between sex and penis size. The two comparisons are primate vs human and bonobo vs chimpanzee.

Your selection by bigger balls sounds really interesting.

As we all know, evolution is just a mutation that turns out to be a lucky advantage to reproduce better, so it's not really interesting to see who really has the biggest cock. Al long penis could be a disadvantage for climbing trees or whatnot.

If you want to see who has the bigger penis, than you should just check the numbers. Humans win.

But that's not the point. What is interesting to see is that more promiscues species have large organs, larger balls, more seed production, ... in general than the monogamous species. Why? Simply becuase the monkey that got a big cock and more seed production by accident impregnates more females.
This of course is not at all the case with gorillas.

I think therefore there is no reason to debate why humans are not more promiscues than chimps and bonobos, but have a bigger penis.
No species is already perfectly adapted to their environnement. Therefore their penis is not yet the perfect shape. There are also a lot of different reasons why some animals evolve faster than others.

 

[petite]

I just wanted to clarify that your initial observation about primates and penis size was incorrect and actually the opposite was the case (It would be great if you could acknowledge you were incorrect on that, btw). When considering the role of female selection in the evolution of the human species, I think it is important to observe that in species of primates where large penises have evolved females do play a role in sexual selection and here we are with the biggest penises of all primates.

But I guess you can reject that evidence as not significant if its important for you to believe that for most of human history, male rape of females has been the standard for sexual reproduction and not an aberration. If you do harbor such an opinion, I will posit that observing the history of a small pocket of humans in a tiny part of the world (Europe) for the past few centuries is significantly less logical than observing the evolutionary trends of our closest living relatives, the fellow primates.

Look, don't be hostile. It ruins the fun.

i'm afraid that that's one of the things that we disagree about.

I've been as clear as I can be and polite during this entire discussion. I can't seem to get through to you why I see your argument as illogical, and you believe that a particular point or two is of more importance than I do. I feel comfortable knowing that we disagree on any particular point, and that we've both explained our points of view, and we're still at an impasse, and that's okay. There's no need to continue to talk in circles or get rude. Sometimes one person cannot convince the other, and vice versa, and if all explanations have been made and the discussion has come to a dead end, then I'd rather not beat a dead horse when we both know the other person's stance and realize that neither of us is likely to convince the other. There's nothing enlightening to be gained by continuing. Those conversations always end badly, either by descending into name calling or tiresome repetition of the same arguments over and over again until no one cares any more.

I'd rather be respectful of the other person, even if we don't agree, and sometimes that means politely acknowledging that the conversation has reached an impasse and has started moving in a circular repetitive fashion, so its best to figuratively shake hands, acknowledge that you disagree with each other, and end it. It makes it all a lot more fun.

 

[FRE]

It is a change in hormones that makes the hair go gray and it has nothing to do with the age of the animal. In every group of gorillas there is only one silverback. It is the alfa male. When a new gorilla establishes himself as an alfa male, there is a hormonal change which makes the hair on his back go gray.
A gorilla can get very old and get no gray hair at all. But it can also be very young and have/be a silverback.

The silverback is the only male who get's to mate, also, he is always the animal that get's to eat first.
Only when he is done eating, the highest ranking female starts to eat, and only when she is finished, the rest of the group can eat.

Does that mean that all gorillas except for silverbacks abstain from sex for their entire lives?

 

[mexdude]

I think the answer is much more simple than all this blah blah bah. With the increase in access and developed knowledge of nutrition, the human species grew taller. Yes we are taller now than our forefathers. The fact that the over all body size increased the same goes for the genital size in balance. The fact that men with larger penis sizes are not the majority of the human population rules out pretty much that the bigger penis was the dominant reproducer.

Yea, but not in modern times, since our brains require better food to work properly, nutrition was a big change in humans, that was probably a factor that changed everything, and in modern times with more access and knowledge in nutrition, the result is a bigger human overall, male and female, altough being tall its not exactly the best, small people have better quality of life overall in an elderly age, just by the simple fact that the bones of a small person have less stress, and when they weaken with old age, the effect is much less than in a tall person

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

But I guess you can reject that evidence as not significant if its important for you to believe that for most of human history, male rape of females has been the standard for sexual reproduction and not an aberration. If you do harbor such an opinion, I will posit that observing the history of a small pocket of humans in a tiny part of the world (Europe) for the past few centuries is significantly less logical than observing the evolutionary trends of our closest living relatives, the fellow primates.

You could say the mating of gorillas could be counted as some sort of rape, just like a roman nobleman would have sex with a slave. There is also rape going on with chimpanzees as well as consensual sex. Bonobos also rape, but less. Bonobos seem to have some kind of gene that makes them fuck for every occasion they have they also have male-male, female-female action and even child molesting.

The homo sapiens only exists for about 300,000-200,000 years. It seems possible that rape has been the standard for sexual reproduction, this would for one explain why humans have such huge dicks. This is something you could debate about for very long. We only know a lot about human social behavior for the last 50,000 years. And thanks to our huge, throbbing brains, human culture can change quickly.

But I still think most human mating happened in some sort of consensual way. I say 'some sort of', because when thinking about this you should try to open your mind. What would you consider consensual etc. There were times when women couldn't get away with saying "i have a headache". In the ancient greece 10 year old boys where 'introduced' in sex by an old geezer. This was not considered rape.
But if you look at how a lot of indiginous people live(d), then you see their is rape, but also a lot more consensual mating between husband and wife.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

Does that mean that all gorillas except for silverbacks abstain from sex for their entire lives?

For the male gorillas, yes. The silverback mates with all the females. So a male gorilla that wants to get some juicy hairy monkey pussy has overthrow the establishment first.

 

[kc2007]

I think it's pretty obvious that female sexual selection has played a part in the evolution of the human size. Back when humans wore less clothes and especially in warmer climates, women would probably select a mate based partly on penis size. Of course a woman is going to select a big penis with a fat pair of balls over a small penis to mate with. Even today women say regardless of how they feel, a larger penis is more attractive to look at and is considered more masculine. Of course as time went on and social norms developed and women started also being concerned with what feels good and people started covering themselves up more, this selection criteria is probably much less prevalent today. The average penis size is 6x5 and think the vagina is about this size as well when aroused. There has got to be more to this than coincidence.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

That's very interesting JamesJonson (about the silverback eating first, etc.). That's a very 'human' behaviour.

I'd better not elaborate on gf and horse, except to say she thought it was funny to compare me with the horse.

So your girlfriend had sex with a horse?