Penis Size Debate

1kmb1

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I don't find that in the Wikipedia quote.

When it says "Females incite copulation by pursing their lips and slowly approaching a male while establishing prolonged eye contact. If the male does not respond, then she will try to attract his attention by reaching towards him or slapping the ground," I can only assume that if the male does respond, they copulate. After all, this is about the female "inciting copulation." Do you have grounds to say this is not the case?

It goes on to say, "In multi-male groups, solicitation indicates female preference." A rather obvious point, I suppose, but why would the article mention this if there is no copulation?

And then this: "However females can be coerced to mate with multiple males."

This at the very least would mean that it is not only the big boss who dips his wick. But there's not even any mention of the big boss ... so I have to wonder if there are not acts of copulation in which he is not a participant at all.

Your notion may be correct, but the Wikipedia article, at least in my reading, does not support it.

read the entire wikipedia entry for context.

the entire female solicitation situation is happening within the gorilla troop (or harem) where there is only one male to choose (multi male troops are the exception not the norm)

also, wikipedia is someones interpretation of sources. not a source in and of itself. so the wording is irrelevant, as they can be misleading.

the facts are:

gorrilas live in harems with one reproducing male, and occasionally multi male troops.

male gorillas fight for dominance.

females incite copulation.

male gorillas will force themselves on females

if gorillas fight for dominance, why would the dominant gorilla let another male reproduce in his group? dominant gorillas will also kill babies not sired by themselves.

Primates: Gorilla Facts - National Zoo| FONZ
 

ConanTheBarber

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read the entire wikipedia entry for context.

the entire female solicitation situation is happening within the gorilla troop (or harem) where there is only one male to choose (multi male troops are the exception not the norm)

also, wikipedia is someones interpretation of sources. not a source in and of itself. so the wording is irrelevant, as they can be misleading.

the facts are:

gorrilas live in harems with one reproducing male, and occasionally multi male troops.

male gorillas fight for dominance.

females incite copulation.

male gorillas will force themselves on females

if gorillas fight for dominance, why would the dominant gorilla let another male reproduce in his group? dominant gorillas will also kill babies not sired by themselves.

Primates: Gorilla Facts - National Zoo| FONZ

I don't see what in the Wikipedia entry qualifies its own entry about reproduction.

Did you read this post?

Here is an article that gives a bit more info. (I am quoting the synopsis and bolding some relevant phrases.):

Although mountain gorillas, Gorilla gorilla beringei, are classified as having a one-male mating system, approximately 40% of the social units are multimale groups. I observed two multimale groups of mountain gorillas at the Karisoke Research Center, Rwanda, Africa, for 17 months to determine male mating patterns and male–male mating harassment in relation to both male dominance rank and female reproductive status. Dominant males mated significantly more than did individual subordinate males, and dominant males mated more with cycling adult and pregnant females. The dominant males participated in 47 and 83% of observed matings in the two groups. Subordinate males were more likely than dominant males to mate with subadult females. Eleven of 14 females were observed to mate with more than one male, and multiple males mated with three of the five females observed at the probable time of conception. Mating harassment was initiated and received by both dominant and subordinate males. Mating harassment occurred infrequently (during 30 and 22% of matings in each group), usually consisted of mild aggression, and usually terminated copulations by subordinate males, but not those by dominant males. These results suggest that multimale mountain gorilla groups can be favourable environments for subordinate males to obtain mating opportunities. Dominant males may be unable or unwilling to prevent subordinate males from mating. Based on behavioural observations, mountain gorillas can have a multimale mating system but further research on the role of females in male mating success and paternity determination is needed to understand fully this species’ mating system.

Source: Male mating patterns in wild multimale mountain gorilla groups by Martha M. Robbins, Department of Zoology, University of Wisconsin–Madison
(Received 25 August 1998; initial acceptance 25 August 1998;final acceptance 3 December 1998; MS. number: A7827R)


You see that the subordinate males do have sex, and that the dominant male is not involved in every act of mating.
 

pcghabsy

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this is really a fun article here. For gay males penis size really does make a big difference. Gay males want a very large penis to play with. It's the same as a straight man wanting to have a girl with very large tits or a big booty. For females this is a totally different story. All they want is a very big bank account. They don't care how large your cock is, only how large the bank account. this is totally true for you nonbelievers out there have you ever seen a female get married to a good-looking poor man? But have you ever seen a very good-looking woman get married to a very ugly man with a lot of money? For all you straight men out there worried about your penis size, don't stress over it. Sell pictures of it, or make porn and sell it. Because at the end of the day females only want your money date don't care how you get it they just want money. For all you gay men out there if you don't have a large penis you should be stressing over it. Use all your money to get a large penis. Otherwise you may have a hard time finding another gay man. I'm gay I know.

Sounds like you have reduced the world to three individuals - Mr. Gay Man, Mr. Straight Man and Miss Female.
 

kc2007

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The premise of this whole thing seems like a bunch of pseudo-intellectualism.
Of Course penis matters, just to some more than others. It's really not a mystery or revelation that men tend to think it matters more than it does. But with that said, I think culturally woman's opinions on the matter changes.
With all of the porn out there and women becoming more sexually liberated to explore their sexuality and be honest about their desires, I think there is a trend to admit they do care about size.

Eden Fantasy and some other "sex toy" sites are great for watching this phenomenon develop. For one, nearly all of the women on these sites are real and have no reason to lie like on this site. For the most part they are educated and knowledgeable and very descriptive. As the products themselves become more and more lifelike you do tend to see an increase in women trying and loving larger than average sizes dildos. Even women who were primarily vibe girls or never tried anything bigger. It really seems like the favorite and most positively reviewed dildos on there are in the area of 6 inches+ x 5.5 inches +, which is on the upper end of average. And not only are willing and enjoying larger sizes, they are starting to know sizes and what exactly their "range" is for enjoyment. Whether or not this is affecting their opinions or relations with real men and penises, is not always clear, plus many women are either bisexual or lesbian on these sites.

Of course in the past, where a woman might experience one or 2 larger guys in their sex life and dildos were basically poorly made, over sized gag gifts, women were more likely to believe size didn't matter. But as women realize how to orgasm and different ways to orgasm and experiment with these more than lifelike toys, their opinion on "not mattering" is going to waver.

Now the big misconception and thing most men will never get past is, this STILL has little effect on who a woman chooses to be with. The fact that she might enjoy something a bit larger now and again unfortunately is deal breaker for all us insecure men out here. And I don't mean sharing your girl with another more well endowed man, but most guys would feel inadequate next to a larger toy.
 

bassman70

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The premise of this whole thing seems like a bunch of pseudo-intellectualism.
Of Course penis matters, just to some more than others. It's really not a mystery or revelation that men tend to think it matters more than it does. But with that said, I think culturally woman's opinions on the matter changes.
With all of the porn out there and women becoming more sexually liberated to explore their sexuality and be honest about their desires, I think there is a trend to admit they do care about size.

Eden Fantasy and some other "sex toy" sites are great for watching this phenomenon develop. For one, nearly all of the women on these sites are real and have no reason to lie like on this site. For the most part they are educated and knowledgeable and very descriptive. As the products themselves become more and more lifelike you do tend to see an increase in women trying and loving larger than average sizes dildos. Even women who were primarily vibe girls or never tried anything bigger. It really seems like the favorite and most positively reviewed dildos on there are in the area of 6 inches+ x 5.5 inches +, which is on the upper end of average. And not only are willing and enjoying larger sizes, they are starting to know sizes and what exactly their "range" is for enjoyment. Whether or not this is affecting their opinions or relations with real men and penises, is not always clear, plus many women are either bisexual or lesbian on these sites.

Of course in the past, where a woman might experience one or 2 larger guys in their sex life and dildos were basically poorly made, over sized gag gifts, women were more likely to believe size didn't matter. But as women realize how to orgasm and different ways to orgasm and experiment with these more than lifelike toys, their opinion on "not mattering" is going to waver.

Now the big misconception and thing most men will never get past is, this STILL has little effect on who a woman chooses to be with. The fact that she might enjoy something a bit larger now and again unfortunately is deal breaker for all us insecure men out here. And I don't mean sharing your girl with another more well endowed man, but most guys would feel inadequate next to a larger toy.
For the record, >5.5 is endowed, not high average in the real world.
 

Silvertip

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Semetricality? Semetricality?? What the hell is that??? Is it perchance in any way related to symmetry? I'm afraid that the quality of PhD students these days has really taken a hit.

Good point, Silvertip, and one I regretted not making.
Symmetry is the better word, and 'semetricality' in any case would properly be spelled 'symmetricality.'

Agreed, but PLEASE don't suggest to the sesquipedalians amongst us that "symmetricality" should be a word. It's just another lame attempt by the vainglorious (such as PhD students) to seem more erudite than they actually are. It's the same as the people (mostly politicians and pundits of all flavors) who use "functionality" when they actually mean "function". Functionality is a totally legitimate word, used as jargon in the computer programming field, but in all other uses it means nothing more than function. Same too with "methodology" which is also a legitimate word. It means the study of methods. But in most common usage today (I'd bet at least 99%) it is meant to say nothing more than "method". But to the verbose who want to put on airs and try to impress I guess five syllables are better than two.

... Among primates, gorillas have very small babies, chimps have babies about twice the weight of a gorilla, and humans have babies twice the weight of chimp babies. Gorillas have the smallest penises, chimps are about twice that size, and humans are twice the size of chimps ...

And I don't doubt that that has played a role in the penile evolution of the three species. But it would be a very small role as your logic is a bit misleading. Your are directly correlating size (i.e. dimension, in this case penis length) to weight. And, since all primates are of comparable density (i.e. just light enough to float), that's the same as volume. Volume is proportional to the cube of dimension and dimension is proportional to the cube root of volume. So with twice the weight (volume) a comparable dimension would only be 1.26 (the cube root of 2) times larger. In other words (using your logic) since the gorilla has a 1.25" erect penis, chimps would have a 1.58" erect penis (1.25 x 1.26) and man would have a 1.99" erect penis (1.25 x 1.26 x 1.26). But in reality it's more like 3" erections for chimps and 6" erections for man.
 
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1kmb1

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I don't see what in the Wikipedia entry qualifies its own entry about reproduction.

you dont see how group structure adds context to reproductive habits?

Did you read this post?

no, i didnt.

but it doesnt change anything, youre arguing the exception rather than the rule. yes, it happens, but look at the numbers, its less than ten percent, and its mostly with sub adult (non reproducing) females. and then another third of it is broken up by a dominant male.

and to be honest, i dont really care; its all irrelevant to my point.
 

ShannonH

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And I don't doubt that that has played a role in the penile evolution of the three species. But it would be a very small role as your logic is a bit misleading. Your are directly correlating size (i.e. dimension, in this case penis length) to weight. And, since all primates are of comparable density (i.e. just light enough to float), that's the same as volume. Volume is proportional to the cube of dimension and dimension is proportional to the cube root of volume. So with twice the weight (volume) a comparable dimension would only be 1.26 (the cube root of 2) times larger. In other words (using your logic) since the gorilla has a 1.25" erect penis, chimps would have a 1.58" erect penis (1.25 x 1.26) and man would have a 1.99" erect penis (1.25 x 1.26 x 1.26). But in reality it's more like 3" erections for chimps and 6" erections for man.

They're just rough numbers. Gorillas definitely have way smaller babies, vaginas, and penises, chimps middle, and man on top. For survival purposes, it's better to have as short a gestation period as possible. Brain takes a really long time to grow, and comes out almost fully grown for that individual's lifetime, so we have huge babies that take 9 months. Baby gorillas look like golf balls. It's not a 'flaw' in my logic that you can't match the numbers up exactly. This isn't math class.

Really like kc2007's post, but yeah I agree 5.5" around is endowed in the real world -- that's the approximate girth large sized condoms are sized around (e.g. magnums, which are meant to fit 5.25"+ girth.) Statistically this is also true. I'm pretty familiar with edenfantasy, but I think it's a little misleading to say those are the ones people like the most. The 5.5" girth ones are the popular large-sized dildos, but they sell a tonne of 4.75" and lots of 4" too. The 5.5" ones are just more likely to be shaped like an actual penis, while the 4" girth ones look like abstract art.

I think a lot of guys get it in their head that bigger = better, when it's a range of preferences that vary from woman to woman but with a greater likelihood of being in a certain area. I think guys with enough experience all know this, but it's a real problem for the inexperienced who get it in their heads that all women would dump their 5.5x4.75" dick for a 9x7 whopper. Just going by the sales alone you'll find a lot more women who prefer the former (but still plenty of girls who'd like the big one.)
 

ConanTheBarber

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Agreed, but PLEASE don't suggest to the sesquipedalians amongst us that "symmetricality" should be a word.

But it is a word, though I agree that it would be better if it weren't.
I think it's usually used in math, but it will metastasize, I say with some regret.

It's just another lame attempt by the vainglorious (such as PhD students) to seem more erudite than they actually are. It's the same as the people (mostly politicians and pundits of all flavors) who use "functionality" when they actually mean "function". Functionality is a totally legitimate word, used as jargon in the computer programming field, but in all other uses it means nothing more than function. Same too with "methodology" which is also a legitimate word. It means the study of methods. But in most common usage today (I'd bet at least 99%) it is meant to say nothing more than "method". But to the verbose who want to put on airs and try to impress I guess five syllables are better than two.

Can't argue with any of this.
 
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It's clear that science is on the side of those who say penis size doesn't matter. How can the opposition possibly respond to that?

Yeah I remember scientists worldwide making a press conference and showing the results obtained from long experiments that scientifically speaking, penis size doesn't matter.

Please, if you realize that you made a thread when you were high, delete it to prevent other potentially high people from commenting on it.
 

ConanTheBarber

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but it doesnt change anything, youre arguing the exception rather than the rule. yes, it happens, but look at the numbers, its less than ten percent, and its mostly with sub adult (non reproducing) females. and then another third of it is broken up by a dominant male.

The article says in its main body:

More recent observations indicate that dominant males will tolerate matings between their putative daughters and subordinate males, and that these subordinate males may mate successfully with other fertile females when not in proximity to the dominant male (Watts 1990, 1991).

So you have some mating between females and males other than the Alpha Male.
Since some mating takes place on the female's initiative, over time a selection preference of the female should be reflected in the overall genetic stream of the species.

and to be honest, i dont really care; its all irrelevant to my point.
If your point was that there is no scope for female preference being reflected in gorilla mating behavior, then, in my opinion, it actually is relevant.

From one of your earlier posts:

obviously the females dont have a choice in which male controls the harem, they base their sexual selection on which gorilla is the big boss gorilla.
Here you say that the female doesn't have a choice in whom they mate with, and all mating is with the big boss gorilla.
This seems to be the classic account, but the Robbins paper seems to refute it.

Not being a biologist, I'll have to leave this here.

(I wonder if there are any biologists who can weigh in. It seems to me that the main question would be: What proportion of female-initiated copulation would be sufficient to reflect, over time, female preference in the species' genome? My belief, based on other reading about genetics, is that the proportion is smaller than the plain man's common-sense response would have it. But I'm really treading water here.)
 
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1kmb1

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If your point was that there is no scope for female preference being reflected in gorilla mating behavior, then, in my opinion, it actually is relevant.

no, my use of gorillas was strictly for their small penises. and i already explained this.

(obviously simplified for convenience)

you keep clinging to minor nuances; im not writing a research paper for a large penis site. i really have no interest in debating gorilla mating habits, thats why im making generalizations, with a broad scope. i mean, i said "big boss gorilla" for christ sake. :tongue:

im sorry, but youre being pedantic, or just dense.
 

B_Yoselin

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It's clear that science is on the side of those who say penis size doesn't matter. How can the opposition possibly respond to that?

If Nature (or genetics or whatever) has created more of standard-sized penises is because this type of penis size is what is most needed. The number of men with penises (flaccid or erect) is very little large. I read in a book that the global percentage of men with erect penises than 8 inches or more, is 4% of world population, therefore, it is very difficult to see a large penis. Obviously, men with small penises penis size or standard, they have monster cocks decearian super-jumbo size and they have to make do with what nature gave them. However, if you are a man and Nature gave you a penis you flaccid and erect oversized, I think, that for some things in your life, that great exaggeration penis size should be more of a hassle (I don't know, is my opinion).
 

ConanTheBarber

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I read in a book that the global percentage of men with erect penises than 8 inches or more, is 4% of world population, therefore, it is very difficult to see a large penis.

Yoselin, I think the percentage is much lower than that.
I have read 1 percent and sometimes less.
 

dude_007

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This isn't still being debated, is it?
The claim was poven false by the submission of evidence from the OP himself. Even if the authors of the second study were not suggesting that it seemed as though the college girls preferred thicker cocks, which they were, it does provide evidence that science is not clearly on the side of people who claim size does not matter. Case closed.
 
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