People of Faith

davidjh7

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chicagosam said:
How can one not admire and respect this man?:smile:

I certainly respect and admire Pecker, for his wit, wisdom and intellegence. He has shown great restraint and consideration when others let loose with far more vehemence than is often justified, including myself. I may not always agree with his ideas or philosophy, but also recognize that those ideals helped shape the fine man that he is today, and for that reason, if no other, find value in them. Isn't it time for a Pecker appreciation thread?:kiss:
 

Lordpendragon

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HickBoy said:
2. How could anybody answer the second question? I may have a genetic predisposition toward believing in a power greater than myself. If that's the case, I'd have been the same sort of believer in another religion as I am in the one I currently practice. There's no real way to rewind my life and start it in Mecca or Joppa.

You have given a very interesting answer.

Some people of faith will deny that they could have a different faith because their's is the only true faith.
 

B_Hickboy

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Lordpendragon said:
You have given a very interesting answer.

Some people of faith will deny that they could have a different faith because their's is the only true faith.

Yes, and their answer is so stupid on so many levels that I find it hard to reply. It categorically denies reality. 'Course, that's at the heart of "Christianity", the way so many practice it today.

The older I get, the less inclined I am to see things in dualistic, "black vs. white", "this vs that" terms. Is mine the one true faith? It works for me. That's all I know.

As far as proselytizing goes, I try to stay out of it. In this part of the world people talk about "presenting the Gospel" to others as a means of converting them, as if it were a sales presentation and there were nothing more at stake than whether the "customer" buys or not. It really is easier to convert others, because theoretically it takes less time and effort than that required to love and understand. But the Bible never says anything about converting anybody. Christ didn't do it, and so-called "Christians" are supposed to be following His example, not making up shit on their own.
 

prepstudinsc

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newcastle said:
First, which religion is correct? There are dozens and dozens of them and they all believe that theirs is "the only true faith." For instance, Baptists believe that if you do not believe exactly as they believe, you go to hell - no questions asked! So, if you were born in a part of the world (say, the Amazon) where you have no access to the Christianity (particularly, the Baptist version), you will suffer for eternity! That makes no sense at all.

As I Baptist, I have a problem with this statement. There are so many "flavors" of Baptists that the above generality is an untruth. Baptists run the gamut from ultra-liberal to ultra-conservative. One can find Baptists that border on Unitarian beliefs and one can find Baptists that make the staunchest conservatives look liberal. Being that Baptists are not organized into denominations, per se, but are organized into "associations", churches are independant and organize with like minded churches. So while there are some major groups, Such as the Southern Baptist Convention, which is pretty conservative overall, there are more moderate groups like the American Baptist Churches, USA, and there are some extremely fundamentalist groups like the Landmark Baptist Churches or the white Missionary Baptist churches that scatter the southern US. (not to be confused with any Black Baptist church that has the words "Missionary Baptist" in its name)

As a member of a predominantly Black Missionary Baptist church, I would take offense that you have to believe EXACTLY the same way I do. One of the main Baptist tenets (that Southern Baptists seem to have forgotten) is that Baptists believe in freedom of belief. That is why there are so many Baptist sects. One group would fight over some point of belief and break off into a new group.

I think that there are some major points that a Christian must believe in, but other than those major points, many of the rest of the points that we argue over are man-made rules. Who cares if we're supposed to use wine or grape juice for communion or how often we're supposed to celebrate it. Who cares what instruments we use in worship services. Let's deal with the real issues of the faith--proclaiming the Gospel to the people who haven't heard it and helping those in need. Acting as Jesus to others. That's what being a Christian is about. It's not about judging, it's not about hating. It's about sharing God's love. Of course, it's not that simple, but that's a quick summary since I don't have pages and pages to write in this forum.
 

Pecker

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davidjh7 said:
I grew up Mormon, and clearly remember when the change of doctrine happened. It was a few years later I finally abandoned the church for good. Not over this issue, because I thought it was a strupid doctrine to bar black people from the preisthood, in the name of "protecting " them, but mainly because I could no longer stomach the blatant hypocracy and hatred and ostricization of anybody who wasn;t a member. I got some decent moral values out of that upbringing, and I try to hold those to this day, but people should never be allowed to run religions---they always screw it all up, in the name of God. IN this case, hate the players, not the game. :biggrin1:
(Bold added.)

Indeed, David, wiser words are rarely spoken.
 

D_Cliebert_Chodechoker

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Lordpendragon said:
I have two well-intentioned questions for people of faith on the site.

First, have you read the scriptures of the world's other great faiths? (if you are not of faith, I would also like to know this)

Secondly, had you been born in another country with a different faith, would you have been as believing in that faith as you now are of your own?

1.YEs i have read sciptures of the other faiths. All have gaps in them that arent faith based but rather individual buis.

2. Yes i might have started off that way, but in the end would of saught out the truth, i think your religious beliefs become your beliefs when your able to more fully understand what it is your believing.
 

newcastle

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PREPSTUDINSC, you make my point for me (thank you for that, by the way). You speak about your religion and the many different associations and beliefs within it. Your speaking of one splinter of the Christian religion, the Baptist sect. My point is reinforced - their are dozens of sects within Christianity. There are dozens of religions. DOZENS! If you were to have grown up in an Islamic country you would not believe in Christianity, you would probably be Islamic. So what makes yours right?

And then to evolution. Tell me where, in any biblical verse, that even hints about evolution. Just one. Lots of speak about Adam, Eve, Noah, etc. The timelines don't work (i.e., "and on the seventh day . . ."). Lots of speak about slavery. Lots of speak about "an eye for an eye." (The Old Testament is comical.)

I am not trying to slam or ridicule you but dude, use your head. Consider the possibilities. Look to the stars, it is a beautiful universe!
 

scanjock8

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beyond a basic understanding of world religions from a theology course i took, i can't say that i've actually expolored scriptures outside of my own faith--not because i questioned the validity of other religions, i've just always received spiritual fullfillment from my own faith, so i never felt the need. if i were disenfranchised by my church or unsure of my beliefs i might do otherwise.

i would agree with the statements of others that most religions share universal tenets, yet all will be interperted and expressed by followers in endlessly different ways. many people reach conclusions about christianity based on the practices of particular denominations that are not shared by all followers. as an episcopalian people are often surprised by the progressive, inclusive teachings of the church i grew up with. the church that never turned its back on me for being gay and always accepted me as one of God's children.
 

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davidjh7 said:
I grew up Mormon, and clearly remember when the change of doctrine happened.
Except it didn't:

"In 1947 the First Presidency (supreme council) of the Church issued an Official Statement saying:

"From the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith even until now, it has been the doctrine of the Church, never questioned by Church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel." (Statement of The First Presidency on the Negro Question, July 17 1947, quoted in Mormonism and the Negro, pp.46-7)

By "full blessings of the Gospel" they meant:

1) The Priesthood

2) The Higher Ordinances (sealings and endowments) in Mormon Temples.

Only The First Presidency can speak for the Church. They did not repudiate the Curse of Cain doctrine nor the Priesthood-ban in 1978. They simply "lifted" the Priesthood-ban (or rather the LORD did through them). There are no current signs the First Presidency will ever repudiate the Curse of Cain legacy. Members who tell themselves and others that the Curse of Cain doctrine was a "mistake" or "personal opinion" or "never taught" are saying they know the Will of the LORD more than did Church Presidents; which they claim to believe in and sustain as "Living Prophets".

+

When asked, church spokespeople generally repudiate the Curse of Cain doctrine. However, despite urging from a number of black Mormons, there has not yet been an official and explicit church repudiation of the doctrine, or an admission that it was a mistake. In 1998, there was a report in the Los Angeles Times that the church leadership was considering an official repudiation of the curse of Cain and curse of Ham doctrines, to mark the 20th anniversary of the 1978 revelation. (Larry B. Stammer, "Mormons May Disavow Old View on Blacks", L.A. Times, May 18, 1998, p. A1). This, however, was quickly denied by the LDS spokesman Don LeFevre."
 

prepstudinsc

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newcastle said:
PREPSTUDINSC, you make my point for me (thank you for that, by the way). You speak about your religion and the many different associations and beliefs within it. Your speaking of one splinter of the Christian religion, the Baptist sect. My point is reinforced - their are dozens of sects within Christianity. There are dozens of religions. DOZENS! If you were to have grown up in an Islamic country you would not believe in Christianity, you would probably be Islamic. So what makes yours right?

And then to evolution. Tell me where, in any biblical verse, that even hints about evolution. Just one. Lots of speak about Adam, Eve, Noah, etc. The timelines don't work (i.e., "and on the seventh day . . ."). Lots of speak about slavery. Lots of speak about "an eye for an eye." (The Old Testament is comical.)

I am not trying to slam or ridicule you but dude, use your head. Consider the possibilities. Look to the stars, it is a beautiful universe!

Who made the stars?

God.

Thank you. The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims all believe that.

There are many Islamic sects, too. Shi'ite, Sunna, Sufi, Kahrijite, Wahhab, Ismailite, Zaidi, Nizari, Alawi, Druze, and that's not even mentioning the American offshoot the Nation of Islam and the several groups that have splintered from it.

As to my own personal beliefs, I did consider some other faiths while in college. Even as an adult, I have been on a quest for a church that fit with my belief system. While the Baptist chuch is not perfect, it is probably the closest to what I believe, although I do have some Holy Ghost issues with them. I'm really more of a "Bapticostal" but that's just a personal preference.

However, Christians are commanded to go and make disciples. I wonder how many Christians have actually gone out and by word and deed actually converted someone. It doesn't need to be in some far off land, it could actually be in your neighborhood. More people want to take the easy way out and let people come to God on their own, which is technically the strict Calvinistic interpretation. "Those who God has predestined will come to God on their own..." It is a complete disobeying of the Great Commission where Jesus tells us to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

Even Jesus knew that there were going to be people in the farthest reaches of the Earth who needed to hear the Gospel. He's not going to come back until everyone hears it. That's why we have to work now to spread the Gospel. Unfortunately Christian televangelists have done more damage to the faith than they have done to help it. They preach hate and exclusivity and that's not what God is about. Jesus died on the cross to fulfill the Law of the Old Testament because the OT is about perfection and only Jesus was perfect. We have to try to live like Jesus, but God knows that as humans we will never be perfect. We just have to convince some of the TV preachers of that! LOL
 

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newcastle said:
And then to evolution. Tell me where, in any biblical verse, that even hints about evolution. Just one. Lots of speak about Adam, Eve, Noah, etc. The timelines don't work (i.e., "and on the seventh day . . .").

Of course there's no mention of evolution in the Bible. The theory of evolution is science; the Bible is not a science book. The Bible doesn't mention the South Pole either, but we must assume that it existed. As for the cosmogeny described in the first chapter of Genesis: it's poetry, pure and simple. One doesn't have to believe that the events in the Bible are historical fact in order to accept the moral and spiritual truths found there. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God (or an Intelligent Designer); that's not its aim. Religion cannot support or destroy scientific theories; it has its own purpose. Science and religion are two separate disciplines that strive for two different sets of answers. As such, there need be no conflict between the two subjects until one sticks its nose into the other's realm.
 
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that_other_guy

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Lordpendragon said:
I have two well-intentioned questions for people of faith on the site.

First, have you read the scriptures of the world's other great faiths? (if you are not of faith, I would also like to know this)

Secondly, had you been born in another country with a different faith, would you have been as believing in that faith as you now are of your own?

1. I am a person of ... varying ... faith and yes, I have read scriptures of the world's other great faiths ... it would be short sighted not to :rolleyes:

2. Probably ... as the saying goes ... If if's & but's were candies & nuts, then we'd all have a mer... ummm ... hmmm ... happy holiday ? :tongue: :rolleyes:
 

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mephistopheles said:
I have s certain faith, I'm not sure anyone else has this faith that i know of.

I went to christian church for years, maybe 7 or 8 years, and ive also studied catholisism and judaism.

Through studying these three religions I've arrived at my own set of beliefs and all the thigs that come with them.

If i was born in a different country i may believe in the same thing... if i was born in a country, but with the same personality and mind set i definitly would, but if i wasnt still me then i doubt it.

i say live and let live when it comes to religion(for the most part) though there is one thing that really bothers me... Agnostics

What three religions are you talking about? I don't think you spent much time studying the beliefs of the Catholic Church because if you had you would've know that Catholics ARE Christians. In fact, we are among the oldest, if not the oldest, of all the Christian denominations. You only studied two religions: Christianity and Judaism. Catholicism is not a religion. Rather, it is a denomination of Chrisitianity in the same sense as the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, etc.
 

scanjock8

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coopturn said:
What three religions are you talking about? I don't think you spent much time studying the beliefs of the Catholic Church because if you had you would've know that Catholics ARE Christians. In fact, we are among the oldest, if not the oldest, of all the Christian denominations. You only studied two religions: Christianity and Judaism. Catholicism is not a religion. Rather, it is a denomination of Chrisitianity in the same sense as the Lutherans, Episcopalians, Baptists, Methodists, etc.

Catholicism IS the mother church (Anglicans tend to hold the Catholic Church in very high regard--Catholics just want to convert us back to the authentic version;-)
 

jaybee

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Lordpendragon said:
I have two well-intentioned questions for people of faith on the site.

First, have you read the scriptures of the world's other great faiths? (if you are not of faith, I would also like to know this)

Secondly, had you been born in another country with a different faith, would you have been as believing in that faith as you now are of your own?

I was a person of faith, at my very height of religious zealotry i was a pro jihad fundie muslim. I converted (in my heart)about 9 years ago. I also come from a catholic background, and converting to islam was like the culmination of studying (albeit in an extremly nieve way) the main world relgions. It was the seemingly pluralist aspect of islam which appeared to me to validite the inherant truth underlying all religious paths that had a big part in swaying me towads islam.

Since falling away from islam i did a module on buddhism at uni that i found most intresting, i had studied buddhism prior to this but in a very scratch the surface kinda way.

But, alas, i think because i am naturally an extreme person, i kinda burned myself out of religion and now haha, im a burnt out washed out bitter non-believer. Oh well, at least i can occupy my thoughts on worrying about the size of my penis now lol
 

dreamer20

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vindicari said:
Did the big man himself not say thou shalt not kill.
No. That was the little man called Moses.

Oddly enough it is his theology that radical religious fanatics use to justify their actions. e.g. theology which supported the Papal Inquistion below:
(and Islamic radicals too)

(From Deuteronomy 13 NIV) “If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you...and he says, "Let us follow other gods"...That prophet or dreamer must be put to death...You must purge the evil from among you.
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods”...do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him...You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death...Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.
If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray...then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.
Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.”
(From Exodus 22:18 NIV) "Do not allow a sorceress to live.”



Watch out sorceror! We are on Moses' hit list!
 

jaybee

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dreamer20 said:
No. That was the little man called Moses.

Oddly enough it is his theology that radical religious fanatics use to justify their actions. e.g. theology which supported the Papal Inquistion below:
(and Islamic radicals too)

!

and the problem with that is........................ ;)
 

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I had a college educated friend tell me one time that she'd studied nearly all of the different religions and that Christianity was the most solid of all beliefs that it covered all holy ground and would assure your place in heaven. Do I believe that, heck no. Personally, I do believe in a higher power, just not sure what or who it is or what I have to do to make sure it/they like(s) me?? I just live and try to be nice to people and hope I do it right. This thread is quite interesting, I'm learning lots. Carry on, please.
 

dreamer20

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jaybee said:
and the problem with that is........................ ;)
Specifically that Moses suppressed religious freedom and ruled as a cruel dictator. Furthermore someone such as you who left the faith, in your case the Muslim faith, or converted to another one would have been sentenced to death. This religious based ordinance is still active in Afghanistan for example. Luckily international pressure prevented this man from being executed:

http://www.rawa.org/convert.htm