Perceptions of success fulfillment

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Is that you don't care to respond to the rest of my point?

I am completely in a position to disagree.

No, you're not. You don't have my experiences. You can't tell me that I'm less happy now than I was before. You can't compare your own experiences to mine and say you are better off one way than you were the other. and yes, this is why I'm ignoring the rest of your argument. It's irrelevant. You're inferring and guessing. I'm speaking to my own experiences, and I already said (twice) that to the faithful, feeling close to God does make them happy. On that point we are in agreement. The rest of my argument you are not in a position to contest.

[edit] as far as there being different kinds of people out there who may find happiness through different paths... I agree with that, too. I guess you're just taking issue with my saying this was because these people needed structure or direction in their lives and attributing this to a lack of drive in defining their own lives and priorities. You'd prefer to believe that they've discovered "deeper meaning." (written in a book or interpreted for them by a pastor) fine. whatever.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

We may have no proof of the existance of God but neither do we have any proof of the non-existence of God.

What does this have to do with being happy?

 

[D_Geffarde Phartsmeller]

Freedom
Family and Friends
Education
Safety
Health
Wealth
Atheist, so no faith in god

 

[ManlyBanisters]

No, you're not. You don't have my experiences. You can't tell me that I'm less happy now than I was before. You can't compare your own experiences to mine and say you are better off one way than you were the other. and yes, this is why I'm ignoring the rest of your argument. It's irrelevant. You're inferring and guessing. I'm speaking to my own experiences, and I already said (twice) that to the faithful, feeling close to God does make them happy. On that point we are in agreement. The rest of my argument you are not in a position to contest.

I would not dare tell you you are less happy now (nor did I). I would not know and it is not my place. Nor was I saying that I am better off. Maybe we are both better off than we were before. The rest of your arguemnt is flawed because you are not only speaking of your own experiences but applying them to every other human being on the planet and making the (very wild) assumption that they would be the same (unless of course they were the type of person without "drive to work toward self-actualization without a book or spiritual leader telling them exactly what to do to get there" - a comment that I still contest shows a serious lack of understanding in how individual faith works). We may agree that Faith in God (as Drifter put it originally) does make some happy - it is your original argument that they are deluded that I have a problem with.

Faith in God I believe to be extremely detrimental to personal happiness. It won't seem that way when you still have your faith... but lose it, come to grips with that loss, and reevaluate who you are and what you want out of life... and I think most will realize like I did that you are much better off and much happier than you were when you still had your faith. Though again, it can depend largely on the person. Some people just don't have the drive to work toward self-actualization without a book or spiritual leader telling them exactly what to do to get there.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

[edit] as far as there being different kinds of people out there who may find happiness through different paths... I agree with that, too. I guess you're just taking issue with my saying this was because these people needed structure or direction in their lives and attributing this to a lack of drive in defining their own lives and priorities. You'd prefer to believe that they've discovered "deeper meaning." (written in a book or interpreted for them by a pastor) fine. whatever.

Didn't see this before I posted.

This may be an 'agree to disagree' moment.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

What does this have to do with being happy?

You seem happy when you are right - I was just pointing out that that is not necessarily the case :biggrin1: :wink:

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Key words you seem to be ignoring Banisters:

I believe

I think most will realize

it can depend largely on the person

 

[ManlyBanisters]

Key words you seem to be ignoring Banisters:

I believe

I think most will realize

it can depend largely on the person

I'm as entitled to disagree with your opinions as you are to hold them.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Disagree all you want.

Falsely accuse me of making wild assumptions and trying to speak for every person on the planet when I am not, and I'll defend myself though.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

To the faithful, feeling close to God does make them happy.

Haven't some of the Fathers of the Church been extraordinarily tortured beings ... men of faith, to be sure, but always finding themselves falling short of their conception of what they must do and be to be worthy of their Creator?

 

[2322]

Freedom - Without it you may as well be dead.
Health - Necessary to experience all the following.
Family and Friends - The only thing you can take with you.
Wealth - Allows freedom, protects health, helps family and friends.
Education - Teaches one how to think, broadens horizons.
Safety - Only way to grow is to take risks. Freedom is not safety.
Religious Faith - Unnecessary if you treat people as ends, not means to ends.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Haven't some of the Fathers of the Church been extraordinarily tortured beings ... men of faith, to be sure, but always finding themselves falling short of their conception of what they must do and be to be worthy of their Creator?

yes, and I could give a long list of other reasons why I feel that the happiness that comes with faith is really just a complex form of self-delusion, but I don't wish to get into that argument, and all I said was that to the faithful, feeling as though they are closer to God makes them feel happy. We can split hairs over what it means to "feel"... but I guess what I was trying to say is that with self-evaluation most people who believe in God will report that the stronger their relationship with God or the stronger their faith, the happier they are. In their minds, the conflict you describe is not between mutual exclusives. They can talk about living in fear of God, of recognizing their own failings and imperfections, of a daily struggle or jihad, of remorse for the inevitability of their sins, and of a longing to join God in the afterlife and be free of this dirty secular world... and at the same time... they'll describe themselves as happy and content in every way, and they will imagine that all their needs are being met by their good and kind Creator. If you think of yourself as being happy, does that mean you are actually happy? Maybe, maybe not. But that's more philosophical than I was trying to be.

 

[36DD]

I don't think faith makes one happy but I do believe it can offer one a sense of peace, and that in turn can make one happier if one wants to call it that. I'm not sure happiness really exists. We all have moments when we are happy, but it is not a constant state. I think learning to be content in all things is the real key to master.

 

[findfirefox]

If you think of yourself as being happy, does that mean you are actually happy? Maybe, maybe not. But that's more philosophical than I was trying to be.

It's completly subjective, there is no way to "rate" someone in regard to how happy they are, its about how happy they feel. There is no difference between the happiness you feel or someone else feels its all just one subjective emotion.

You are making it sound as if people who are happy because of their faith in god are experencing a fake sensation of happiness but in reality isent the same as everyone elses sensations?

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

You are making it sound as if people who are happy because of their faith in god are experencing a fake sensation of happiness but in reality isent the same as everyone elses sensations?

I feel that there is a huge qualitative difference between the happiness I felt when I was devoutly religious and the happiness I feel now.

I feel that in the same way I had deceived myself into thinking that what I truly wanted out of life involved the denial of my basic needs and desires, I had also deceived myself into thinking I was happier than I really was.

I think I said that I was happy, and told others that I was happy, and even convinced myself that I was happy... because this is what I felt that I should be. Still... inbetween the public proclamations of happiness and peace, there were serious bouts of self-doubt and depression.

I feel that the contentment I feel now is more natural because it involves being content with who I truly am, not being content with the progress I've made at squeezing myself into the mold of who I think some supernatural force wants me to be. I've accepted and embraced all parts of myself, and I feel that I am a good and worthwhile person without having to apologize for anything. The happiness I feel now is more pure, in my opinion, because it is no longer tinged with guilt. A guilt that was, in retrospect, completely unnecessary.

 

[findfirefox]

Would you say that you are happier now or would you say that you were unhappy before?

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

I already went through four paragraphs explaining how I feel now vs. how I felt then. I thought I was happy and I felt as though I was happy then, but I now believe this to be mostly the product of elaborate self-delusion. I felt really depressed before, but usually only in spurts before I was "okay" again... then I felt as though I was fine, and oftentimes even happy, but there was a melancholy hue to everything when I was convinced I was living in a world of sin. I got some happiness from my relationship with my first girlfriend, even though I struggled with this because she was not religious, and because it became sexual and we were not married, and because she was so important to me and up to that point all I had as a priority in my life was God and then all of a sudden there was competition. So.... lots of conflict and guilt and confusion and turmoil, even though I told everyone I was happy, and wrote in my journal every day about how happy I was.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

If you think of yourself as being happy, does that mean you are actually happy? Maybe, maybe not. But that's more philosophical than I was trying to be.

There is no try, only do :tongue:

 

[B_Think_Kink]

Family and friends
Safety
Freedom
Health
Education
Wealth

Omitted:
Faith in God
Why:
Cause I don't buy into that stuff.

 

[whatireallywant]

Can you order these in priority of importance for achieving happiness?

Health
Family and Friends
Wealth
Education
Faith in God
Safety
Freedom

For me the order would be:

Family and friends
Health
Wealth
Freedom
Education
Safety

Faith in God is not that important to me - I am happier now (believe it or not, considering my posts! ) than I was when I was religious.

Wealth is probably more important to me than it is for most people. Partly because I'm going through a time of no money right now! (I have also gone through times with no friends, and times of very poor health, although I always did have my family, thankfully...) If I did have money, I'd probably rearrange these to put freedom above wealth.

But really, all of these are important to me except for the religious faith one.