Perhaps the Fall of Fundamentalism in America Has Begun

dong20

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Each of us will do what we feel is right by our own morals. I am feeling a great need to rebuke this man as the heretic and ungodly man he was, and to bring to light why no man's words should ever substitute your own careful study. This is just a worthless person, not a saint or god himself. Calling himself a Christian certainly didn't make it so.

Yes, we must each do what feels right personally. I wasn't very familiar with Falwell though I was aware of him, his brand of vile extremism just doesn't seem to thrive here, well not Christian extremism anyway. Though for sure it exists.

For me, it's not about respect for the dead, certainly not in this case. It seems to me that those who deserve contempt should receive it when they're alive so they can feel it's sting, when they're dead it's pointless, wasted effort, venting anger and frustration on someone who is dead just seems futile, I mean what's the point? He's dead, his problems are over, or depending on one's take - perhaps they're just beginning:saevil:. He can't hear you, he doesn't care. Still, if it works for you what does it matter.

It's beyond high time Christians stop using the Bible and Jesus to justify war, judgement, and hatred. Enough already. If you can't even manage the most basic truth of your religion, shut the fuck up.

Well, of course it is but consider this; His die hard followers will not care, and those who already agree with your sentiments will continue to do so. It's those between, the majority undecideds if you will, they're the one's that matter they can be influenced. As you say; to advocate the moral high road, one must follow it. So in that sense, stomping on the freshly dug grave of a man they may feel has something to say to them likely won't go far toward engendering in them a sense of 'Christian' warmth, compassion and tolerance. It may be cathartic but it's quite possibly somewhat self defeating.

I know you don't profess to be a Christian but your rage targets them. If one considers the best tenets of Christianity, compassion, tolerance etc as virtues which I'm sure you do, consider following your own advice given in your last sentence; it may burn to bite one's tongue, but in terms of changing opinion sometimes it's simply more practical.
 

HUNGHUGE11X7

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I hope this will have an impact . I think the majority of the American public especially 30 and under see through the hypocritical machinations of the fanatical right and they have forever lost the stronghold they had on our country.
For a while we went from a Democracy to a Theocratic government and we almost lost sight of the founding fathers "Separation of Church and State"
Not only will the fanatical right FALL but Christianity in general will be less and less in the world. You can see this already in Europe and in the coming years America will follow .
The scariest thing we have facing our government now has 18 Legs and only 2 breasts and WAY too much power.
They scare the hell out of me cause they seem hellbent on causing a civil war in our country.
Bad enough we are despised (and rightly so) all over the planet, if we turn on each other, well I can't fathom the bloodshed.


:banana:
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DC_DEEP

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Ah yes--the loud mouthed liberals step forward.
NEWSFLASH PEOPLE--
Onslow, your post would have been good, except for your foreword. Why is it that any time anyone posts something with which you disagree, or which offends you, you feel obligated to resort to jqblonde-style, liberal-as-a-pejorative-word name calling?

And would you object to some posts using a little "back-door golden rule" and speaking of falwell the way he spoke of others?
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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Oh, you mean like Iraq?

Haha, I had to do it.
Yeah and for that matter, I believe you also wanted to.

He left us with a legacy of hate and intolerance, damage that we must now undo. You'll excuse me if I remind cold as ice towards that now-rotting douchebag.
Be whatever to the fucko if you want; The fact is- a man who provoked alot of ignorant, close minded BULLSHIT is dead.
Hating the man after he's dead & due to be dropped & planted six feet under soon doesn't justify anything unless you want to speak ill of the dead.
 

thethroat

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Kudos to those of you expressing your thoughts on Rev. Falwell's passing. There is some interesting reading in these threads. We would all do well to remember (as already mentioned) that despite his actions and words Falwell was a human being and deserves at least the same respect as any person walking down the street, in death as well as in life.

Personally I found his beliefs ridiculous but his tactics and charisma were amazing. He pretty much single-handedly mobilized a large section of the American populace more effectively than almost anyone else one can think of. Whether you agreed with his philosophy or not, that's a pretty incredible feat. If only the rest of us had such a spokesman.

Rev. Mel White, formerly a speechwriter for Falwell and Robertson, among others, has written a well-thought-out book, "Religion Gone Bad", which has as its main focus the argument for opening marriage to gays - but he includes a lengthy discussion of his relationship with Falwell (and the others) which really puts a human perspective on these guys' otherwise unimaginable inspiration. A good read.

And of course this is not the "Fall of Fundamentalism". Check out AFA - American Family Association - Promoting Traditional Family Values for representative ranting about how important Falwell was and how much his memory will drive the movement ahead. We're looking at dark days. At least they'll be entertaining.
 

Onslow

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Kudos to those of you expressing your thoughts on Rev. Falwell's passing. There is some interesting reading in these threads. We would all do well to remember (as already mentioned) that despite his actions and words Falwell was a human being and deserves at least the same respect as any person walking down the street, in death as well as in life.

Personally I found his beliefs ridiculous but his tactics and charisma were amazing. He pretty much single-handedly mobilized a large section of the American populace more effectively than almost anyone else one can think of. Whether you agreed with his philosophy or not, that's a pretty incredible feat. If only the rest of us had such a spokesman.

Rev. Mel White, formerly a speechwriter for Falwell and Robertson, among others, has written a well-thought-out book, "Religion Gone Bad", which has as its main focus the argument for opening marriage to gays - but he includes a lengthy discussion of his relationship with Falwell (and the others) which really puts a human perspective on these guys' otherwise unimaginable inspiration. A good read.

And of course this is not the "Fall of Fundamentalism". Check out AFA - American Family Association - Promoting Traditional Family Values for representative ranting about how important Falwell was and how much his memory will drive the movement ahead. We're looking at dark days. At least they'll be entertaining.
It needed to be repeated--
 

DC_DEEP

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<...>
We would all do well to remember (as already mentioned) that despite his actions and words Falwell was a human being and deserves at least the same respect as any person walking down the street, in death as well as in life.
Thank you for reminding us. I had forgotten that falwell deserves more respect in death than he extended to me in life. My bad.
 

Onslow

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At least we can take comfort in the fact that he is rotting in hell right along side Regan.:biggrin1:

I wonder if he died while getting it on with a prostitute.
Falwell was a Christian--this means automatic entry to Heaven. Hell is actually a figment of people's imagination created to terify little children into eating their veggies. Further, Falwelll wasn't into prostitutes--you have him confused with Jimmy Swaggart.

He left us with a legacy of hate and intolerance, damage that we must now undo. You'll excuse me if I remind cold as ice towards that now-rotting douchebag.
Speakinhg of intolerance--how is it you wish to object to Falwell being hateful and intolerant; but think it's okay for you to do those same things?

Thank you! We have to be the better people by not showing hatred like he did. We have to be the examples to the world--to show what's right.

Oh, you mean like Iraq?

Haha, I had to do it.
And yet you wonder why anyone would treat you condescendingly.

On the other hand, if hurricane Katrina was an act of God against the gays (according to Falwell), maybe we should not be presumptuous here.

Maybe Jerry's death was an act of God.
Well, according to Falwell's belief I am sure that it was--after all our days are numbered and our time is written down in a daily planner.

I really dont have an opinon on him one way or the other. I wouldnt speak ill of anyone who died anyway. Bad Karma is like a boomerang.
Yipes! A moment of sanity and sense.
Ah yes--the loud mouthed liberals step forward.
NEWSFLASH PEOPLE--

YOUR HATRED IS JUST AS DETRIMENTAL TO YOUR ALLEGED CAUSE AND SUPPORT AS HIS IGNORANCE WAS TO HIS.

BIGGEST DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT HE WAS AN IGNORANT MAN AND DID NOT KNOW ANY BETTER. YOU GUYS HAVE NO EXCUSE (unless of course you all plan to plead ignorance)


The bottom line is hatred is hatred and if you all plan to call Falwell on the carpet for his then you better be damned well ready to strip naked and step to the judgement booth for your lashes. (sorry of that sounded too sexual-- I know Jerry would have approved in this case)

Onslow, your post would have been good, except for your foreword. Why is it that any time anyone posts something with which you disagree, or which offends you, you feel obligated to resort to jqblonde-style, liberal-as-a-pejorative-word name calling?

And would you object to some posts using a little "back-door golden rule" and speaking of falwell the way he spoke of others?
I knew as I wrote it that I was stepping into choppy waters--especially with my opening salvo. As to the comparrison of me to this jqblonde person, I need to protest. And while we are at it how many times--since you wish to go in that direction--have I myself been whacked repeatedly for stating my views and then been called an idiot, a moron, etc. etc.? I used the word liberal because it is mostly the ones from this board who classify themselves as liberal thinkers and open minded individuals who are displaying the most hatred. The irony of course being that the hatred is towards a now dead man with whom, one of their biggest beefs was his alleged hatred. Again, I need to ask: Is speaking one's truth actually hatred if one is too ignorant to know that there is absurdity in what they say? At any rate, the bottom line remains--hatred towards a man or woman (dead or alive) does not negate or their hatred nor is it truly justifiable on our part.

Let me give you a quick example: There's this man on this board who I do not like or his life choices. He knows this--as do most people here. Now, if he were to disappear from the boards I would not fall apart; however, if it were indicated he had died, I would not go out and celebrate. My first concerns would be for his family--notably his children. No matter how I may feel about him personally, his children (and many otheres) like and love him. What purpose would it serve to attack him if he were dead? I do not attack dead folks--it just ain't right.

In a PM to another member here I indicated that I heartily understand the grief the liberal minded folk here are going through--after all they have just lost a punching bag.

Falwell is dead dead dead. Let's let the afterlife take care of him in whatever way it sees fit to do.
 

HUNGHUGE11X7

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Thank you for reminding us. I had forgotten that falwell deserves more respect in death than he extended to me in life. My bad.



Ummmmmmmmm NO , RESPECT is returned when given. It's ONLY automatic in childhood .


:banana:
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HUNGHUGE11X7

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Falwell was a Christian--this means automatic entry to Heaven. Hell is actually a figment of people's imagination created to terify little children into eating their veggies. Further, Falwelll wasn't into prostitutes--you have him confused with Jimmy Swaggart.


hahahaha you proclaim HELL is a figment of ones imagination yet "BELIEVE" in HEAVEN ?
Hell was the place where trash was burned in ancient times.
FALLWELL was as much a Christian as BUSH is a Genius.
Like a friend of mine says I have no problem with "JESUS" if he ever actually existed but I do with his fanclub.


:banana:
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DC_DEEP

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<...>
I knew as I wrote it that I was stepping into choppy waters--especially with my opening salvo. As to the comparrison of me to this jqblonde person, I need to protest. And while we are at it how many times--since you wish to go in that direction--have I myself been whacked repeatedly for stating my views and then been called an idiot, a moron, etc. etc.?
I don't recall ever calling you any of those things, but if I did, it was most likely in response to you posting something like your opening in this thread... and you do that FAR too often. I do know that, without calling you names, I have taken you to task for using the same tactics that were routinely used by jqblonde.
<...>
Again, I need to ask: Is speaking one's truth actually hatred if one is too ignorant to know that there is absurdity in what they say?
Yes, it is. Just as murder is murder, whether or not the perpetrator thinks it is or not.

falwell was NOT ignorant; he knew PRECISELY what he was doing. He knew he was behaving immorally and unethically when he played upon the beliefs and fears of the ignorant, for the sole purpose of propelling himself from obscurity in Lynchburg, VA to national and world prominence, and for financial gain - at the expense of the good name of christians everywhere.
 

MASSIVEPKGO_CHUCK

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Somehow, that's very plausible about Falwell's being not ignorant. A man of God shouldn't wish other people to be punished souly predicated on their sexual orientation/lifestyle, nor should he attempt to make others believe that a mysterious disease was the result of these habits. Which is exactly what he did back in the 80's, and tried to convince Reagan as well.
 

DC_DEEP

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Ummmmmmmmm NO , RESPECT is returned when given. It's ONLY automatic in childhood .


:banana:
HORSE
:tongue: That was my point, Horse.

And just a little food for thought:
Those who keep on with the "just let him rest in peace, don't speak ill of the dead" refrain, please give me some simple yes-or-no answers to these questions:

1. Should the transgressions of every evil person in history just be covered up, now that the person is dead?

2. Is it evil to use subterfuge to convince less intelligent people to abandon their true christian beliefs and replace them with anti-christian dogmas?

3. Did falwell, or did he not, encourage his followers to hold hatred in their hearts toward some groups of people?

4. Is hatred of other persons a truly christian belief?
 

Lex

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HungHuge, Zora and DC DEEP have said it as well as I would want to.

He was a BAD person and the fact that so many OTHER Christains never CHALLENGED him on being a shitbag in a priest's disguise just shows you how fucked up it all is.

Letting people DO wrong and ignoring it is FUNDAMENTALLY UnChristain.
 

dong20

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Those who keep on with the "just let him rest in peace, don't speak ill of the dead" refrain, please give me some simple yes-or-no answers to these questions:

1. Should the transgressions of every evil person in history just be covered up, now that the person is dead?

NO: But berating them for it after they are dead seems, I don't know futile. Berate the living, it's more effective.

2. Is it evil to use subterfuge to convince less intelligent people to abandon their true christian beliefs and replace them with anti-christian dogmas?

YES: But that applies to any subterfuge does it not?

3. Did falwell, or did he not, encourage his followers to hold hatred in their hearts toward some groups of people?

YES: That's not in dispute, is it?

4. Is hatred of other persons a truly christian belief?

NO: But then if that be so, those espousing hatred of him now are equally non Christian are they not?

Personally I couldn't care less what anyone says about him, or anyone else for that matter.

It's the double standard that stands out for me here; it's OK for me to hate him, but not for him to hate me. That equation is somewhat unbalanced.
 

DC_DEEP

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1. Should the transgressions of every evil person in history just be covered up, now that the person is dead?

NO: But berating them for it after they are dead seems, I don't know futile. Berate the living, it's more effective.

Therefore, we should never mention the atrocities committed by any other evil person. Let's burn the history books.

2. Is it evil to use subterfuge to convince less intelligent people to abandon their true christian beliefs and replace them with anti-christian dogmas?

YES: But that applies to any subterfuge does it not?

Of course it does. You didn't put much thought into why I chose the questions I did, or into your answers - in context with all the questions.

3. Did falwell, or did he not, encourage his followers to hold hatred in their hearts toward some groups of people?

YES: That's not in dispute, is it?

Apparently, it is. Again, this is asked in context.

4. Is hatred of other persons a truly christian belief?

NO: But then if that be so, those espousing hatred of him now are equally non Christian are they not?

I'm not christian. I never claimed to be a christian, so pointing out that I'm non christian is hardly a revelation. My personal philosophy, though, often espoused more christian ideals than that of falwell.
I'm not espousing hatred, I have not yet (nor will I) posted that I'm glad he's dead. But I do understand why his detractors feel the way they do. Equally non-christian? That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. My problem here is that while I am not a christian, I DO understand the concepts of christianity. I find it repugnant that falwell would use the believers for personal gain. For what it's worth, what he did "in the name of the lord" is exactly described in the bible as an action of the antichrist... id est, teaching false doctrine.
Personally I couldn't care less what anyone says about him, or anyone else for that matter.
That's apparent from your posts.
It's the double standard that stands out for me here; it's OK for me to hate him, but not for him to hate me. That equation is somewhat unbalanced.
I don't/didn't hate him, but I never ever had/have any respect for him. To those who say "have some respect for him now that he's dead", I will simply repeat, "I will have as much respect for him in death as he did for me in life."
 

burns1de

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Falwell was a Christian--this means automatic entry to Heaven. Hell is actually a figment of people's imagination created to terify little children into eating their veggies.

Ooooh boy, I get it now...

Speakinhg of intolerance--how is it you wish to object to Falwell being hateful and intolerant; but think it's okay for you to do those same things?

So what, by your logic, people should have been sad at Hitler's passing? Some people just deserve to die, and he was one of them.

And yet you wonder why anyone would treat you condescendingly.

Only you, so far. That should be your hint.

I knew as I wrote it that I was stepping into choppy waters--especially with my opening salvo.

Oh yeah, you're my freakin' hero. :rolleyes2:
 

Full_Phil

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The people who need to be herded around like sheep, and to hate someone or something because of their own self-hatred, will not evaporate because of the death of one horrible man. Some slicker (Jim Baker's back, isn't he, and what happened to Jeemie Swagart?) will find a way to make Falwell's death the result of a commie leftist plot and catapult him (in at least that community) into martyr status. The amount of money that will be raised by these charlatans in Falwell's name could probably balance the national debt. There is only one way to combat the effect of the Chreestian Nazis, and that is to find all the people who turn their backs on the right to vote each election and GET THEM TO THE POLLS (!!) in order to defeat the one-issuers. Instead of trying to bicker and compete for leadership, the first step should be to combine and merge all factions that would be counter to the Right and GET OUT THE FUCKING VOTE. They can all agree to disagree afterwards. If France can bring out over 75% of its eligible voters, so can we!
 

dong20

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DC and Dong said:
1. Should the transgressions of every evil person in history just be covered up, now that the person is dead?

NO: But berating them for it after they are dead seems, I don't know futile. Berate the living, it's more effective.

Therefore, we should never mention the atrocities committed by any other evil person. Let's burn the history books.

Jeez, where did I say that? For instance; Hitler was a murdering fascist right, while calling him one may make one feel better, and it may be true but, it won't hurt him or change him or what he did one iota, same with Falwel. What they did is now a matter of historical record and we can infer quite easily what kind of people they were from those facts. If they were still alive, things could be different, we could seek redress, that's all I meant. I thought it was obvious.


2. Is it evil to use subterfuge to convince less intelligent people to abandon their true christian beliefs and replace them with anti-christian dogmas?

YES: But that applies to any subterfuge does it not?

Of course it does. You didn't put much thought into why I chose the questions I did, or into your answers - in context with all the questions.

I didn't think it needed much, taking advantage of someone less intelligent without their express knowledge to achieve any aim is wrong, what more needs to be said. Falwel is no different in this context, it's a matter of scale sure but the principle applies the same, right?


3. Did falwell, or did he not, encourage his followers to hold hatred in their hearts toward some groups of people?

YES: That's not in dispute, is it?

Apparently, it is. Again, this is asked in context.

Not to me it's not, and like you, I can only answer for myself.

4. Is hatred of other persons a truly christian belief?

NO: But then if that be so, those espousing hatred of him now are equally non Christian are they not?

I'm not christian. I never claimed to be a christian, so pointing out that I'm non christian is hardly a revelation. My personal philosophy, though, often espoused more christian ideals than that of falwell.

Nor me, not in any religious sense at least. Where exactly DC, did I 'point out' that you were not a Christian? Please do show me. My answer to Q4 was not aimed at you per se, but see below for more on that.



I'm not espousing hatred, I have not yet (nor will I) posted that I'm glad he's dead. But I do understand why his detractors feel the way they do.

I know you're not, it's not your way and again, show me where I said you were, I said "Those espousing....." and, plenty are. If I had meant you were doing so I would have said so. I don't have many pet peeves but people putting words in my mouth is on the list.:smile:

Equally non-christian? That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

I disagree, I think, in a calm analysis it's almost entirely the point, Falwel espoused hatred and he was/is, rightly condemned for that, it being unchristian and all. But somehow those who hate him back in spades are not being unchristian, even a little bit? Well, that seems a rather selective interpretation, to me at least, albiet an entirely understandable and human one. Now, that's the thing; I'm not at all sure that the principals of Christianity and human nature are entirely compitible, certainly not when it becomes personal.

DC and Dong said:
Quote:
Personally I couldn't care less what anyone says about him, or anyone else for that matter.

That's apparent from your posts

By that I meant; it doesn't change my view of him. I'm not sure what you meant?

My problem here is that while I am not a christian, I DO understand the concepts of christianity. I find it repugnant that falwell would use the believers for personal gain. For what it's worth, what he did "in the name of the lord" is exactly described in the bible as an action of the antichrist... id est, teaching false doctrine. That's apparent from your posts.I don't/didn't hate him, but I never ever had/have any respect for him. To those who say "have some respect for him now that he's dead", I will simply repeat, "I will have as much respect for him in death as he did for me in life."

I don't disagree, but I've never said anything else, I just pointed out that to me at least it's futile to insult those who are beyond insulting, and a tad hypocritical to indulge the very behaviour one is condemning them for.

In short, for me, again; life's too short to waste your angst on the dead, save it for the living where it may do some good.