Perhaps the Fall of Fundamentalism in America Has Begun

[SteveHd]

Now that I've been grouped with liberals, I've taken another look at this thread and I don't like the company.

About fucking time // and hell rejoices // good riddance // Thank God! // I'm glad he's dead // At least we can take comfort in the fact that he is rotting in hell // now-rotting douchebag // Maybe Jerry's death was an act of God.

Looks bad doesn't it?

 

[burns1de]

Now that I've been grouped with liberals, I've taken another look at this thread and I don't like the company.Looks bad doesn't it?

Naw, it looks fine to me.

 

[YourAvgGuy]

Now that I've been grouped with liberals, I've taken another look at this thread and I don't like the company.Looks bad doesn't it?

Personally, I am honored to be in such FINE company!

Maybe while Jerry is looking up with the pitch-fork up his ass, the people whom he bashed are looking down and smiling...

Who knows........?

 

[chavous]

I Do Wonder What Jerry Thought When He Arrived To Where -ever And There Were Jews, Gays, Transgender There Too!

 

[Freddie53]

I Do Wonder What Jerry Thought When He Arrived To Where -ever And There Were Jews, Gays, Transgender There Too!

I don't doubt Jerry is in heaven. But I'm sure his greeters were all the "outcasts" that Jesus championed here on earth. I'm sure he was assigned a bunk mate who was a flaming gay here on earth.:tongue:

As a note: according to biblical theology, only humans have sexual traits. Our souls in heaven have no sexual feeling etc. Still I think it would be hilarious for Jerry to have as his partner a flaming gay activist while here on earth.

 

[DC_DEEP]

In short, for me, again; life's too short to waste your angst on the dead, save it for the living where it may do some good.

I simply tried to illustrate that even though he is dead, his legacy is not. It is instructive to examine that legacy, in the context of the kind of person he was.

falwell did major, possibly unreversible damage to my country. Although I do not hate him for it - nor will I forget it.

 

[dong20]

I simply tried to illustrate that even though he is dead, his legacy is not. It is instructive to examine that legacy, in the context of the kind of person he was.

That goes without saying, or rather I thought it was so obvious it didn't need saying. I do that a lot. My point was rather more basic; pots and kettles. Still I'm glad we seem to understand each other, I think.:smile:

falwell did major, possibly unreversible damage to my country. Although I do not hate him for it - nor will I forget it.

Nothing, given time is irreversible at the human level. Take heart from that fact.

 

[JustAsking]

I regret nothing about Falwell so much as that he convinced many that his kind of fundamentalism is Christianity. There are many of us who not only denounced him while alive for his range of stands from the inane (Attacking a teletubby) to the insane (Blaming 9/11 on homosexuals), but more than anything for sullying the reputation of Christianity almost beyond repair. I wish that I was able to let him rest in peace, but the most I can muster is to hope that God is as forgiving as I believe God to be, and not as judgmental as Falwell believed.

What he said.

 

[madame_zora]

Yes, we must each do what feels right personally. I wasn't very familiar with Falwell though I was aware of him, his brand of vile extremism just doesn't seem to thrive here, well not Christian extremism anyway. Though for sure it exists.

You couldn't possibly understand what this man meant to ME. You don't live here, you didn't watch your whole government turn into a sad, pathetic shell of its former self, you didn't get to watch the dark ages creep into your country so your own kid had an uglier place to grow up in than you had yourself. For these reasons, I understand your perspective. Please give me credit for having my own feelings for my own reasons.

For me, it's not about respect for the dead, certainly not in this case. It seems to me that those who deserve contempt should receive it when they're alive so they can feel it's sting, when they're dead it's pointless, wasted effort, venting anger and frustration on someone who is dead just seems futile, I mean what's the point? He's dead, his problems are over, or depending on one's take - perhaps they're just beginning:saevil:. He can't hear you, he doesn't care. Still, if it works for you what does it matter.

It feels good to shit on him, sure, but that's hardly the point. The point is underlining what a horrible person he was, what horrible thoughts he preached, and making sure everyone in AMERICA (not the UK) gets it through their thick fucking heads that someone who is not a Christian by their behavior SHOULD NOT BE FOLLOWED, FOR CHRISSAKES! Ahem. Americans have proven themselves recently to be excessively dense. I scream a lot, because no one hears me any other way (here, not there).

Well, of course it is but consider this; His die hard followers will not care, and those who already agree with your sentiments will continue to do so. It's those between, the majority undecideds if you will, they're the one's that matter they can be influenced. As you say; to advocate the moral high road, one must follow it. So in that sense, stomping on the freshly dug grave of a man they may feel has something to say to them likely won't go far toward engendering in them a sense of 'Christian' warmth, compassion and tolerance. It may be cathartic but it's quite possibly somewhat self defeating.

Not at all. I don't give a fuck about people's feelings. I'm honestly sick to death of having feelings elevated over facts. I don't care how the "weak and easily led" feel about the loss of a leader, I just want to point out what a piece of shit he was, and what an atrocious effect he had on our country. I'm doing exactly what I intended, as I have no interest at all in how it is received.

I also have no affection for corpses, and I find it disgusting, but to each his own.

I know you don't profess to be a Christian but your rage targets them. If one considers the best tenets of Christianity, compassion, tolerance etc as virtues which I'm sure you do, consider following your own advice given in your last sentence; it may burn to bite one's tongue, but in terms of changing opinion sometimes it's simply more practical.

You're completely missing my point. It's okay, you're free to look at things however you choose, but to keep saying I'm doing what I despised in him is just completely innacurate. Please, stop being sure you know how I feel better than I do, because you don't. I'm perfectly capable of representing myself, and I neither need nor want a pr man, okay? I don't mind if people think I'm a reprehensible ass, or whatever else they might think. There is very little I put into print without considering it very carefully, I will NEVER just bite my tongue and keep silent, ever. I couldn't live with myself.

Words do NOT equal behavior. I'm not advocating anyone beat up Christians, or legislate against them. I'm not skimming out of the church till, I'm not taking money from DRUG COMPANIES to help finance my campaigns, I'm not promoting hatred of others into legislation to protect my own superiority. Speaking the truth about an evil and corrupt man isn't "just as bad" unless you're just completely stupid. He had the balls to DO the things he did, me pointing it out is just acknowledging reality. Duh.

When someone does something horrible, it is the responsibility of every sane person to renounce it. When someone rapes a kid, do you feel that you should "not speak ill of the dead"? Of course not, don't be absurd. Falwell was an aggressive, domineering asshole who ruined the lives of many, I don't give a shit how anyone feels about his passing, I'm relieved.

I know you feel differently, and that's your right too.

 

[Lex]

He was a bad man who did bad things. Much of the bullshit he spouted from in front of his monitors is repeated as biblical fact today. Ad nauseum.

I will not cut him slack because he is dead and so many have been foolishly led to believe that speaking the TRUTH about someone after their death (be it good or bad) is somehow wrong.

It IS what it IS. He put a lot of things in place that have done nothing but divide our country. His legacy speaks for itself and he did far more harm than good and anyone who wants to IGNORE his harm because he is dead can suck my dick and rot in the ground with him.

I feel like what we are being asked to do it akin to asking us to be happy that a child molestor or rapist got out on parole after he had personally tortured your family, when we all know we'd just as soon prefer he'd stay arrested.

I don't see people cutting Hitler slack for his genocidal nonsense. Fallwell is no different just because he used the Bible and fear instead of an army and force.

Wake the fuck up.

 

[Lex]

He was a bad man who did bad things. Much of the bullshit he spouted from in front of his monitors is repeated as biblical fact today. Ad nauseum.

I will not cut him slack because he is dead and so many have been foolishly led to believe that speaking the TRUTH about someone after their death (be it good or bad) is somehow wrong.

It IS what it IS. He put a lot of things in place that have done nothing but divide our country. His legacy speaks for itself, and it leaves a BLACK mark. He did far more harm than good and anyone who wants to IGNORE his harm because he is dead can suck my dick and rot in the ground with him.

I feel like what we are being asked to do it akin to asking us to be happy that a child molestor or rapist got out on parole after he had personally tortured your family, when we all know we'd just as soon prefer he'd stay arrested.

I don't see people cutting Hitler slack for his genocidal nonsense. Fallwell is no different just because he used the Bible and fear instead of an army and force.

Wake the fuck up.

 

[dong20]

You couldn't possibly understand what this man meant to ME. You don't live here, you didn't watch your whole government turn into a sad, pathetic shell of its former self, you didn't get to watch the dark ages creep into your country so your own kid had an uglier place to grow up in than you had yourself. For these reasons, I understand your perspective. Please give me credit for having my own feelings for my own reasons.

You keep reminding me that 'I don't live here', I'm not sure why, do you think I may somehow forget? Quite the reverse in fact and for that I am increasingly thankful. As for telling me what I have or haven't experienced, how would you possibly know?

As for the bold; MZ, I believe I did when I wrote : "Yes, we must each do what feels right personally..."

It feels good to shit on him, sure, but that's hardly the point. The point is underlining what a horrible person he was, what horrible thoughts he preached, and making sure everyone in AMERICA (not the UK) gets it through their thick fucking heads that someone who is not a Christian by their behavior SHOULD NOT BE FOLLOWED, FOR CHRISSAKES! Ahem. Americans have proven themselves recently to be excessively dense. I scream a lot, because no one hears me any other way (here, not there).

I don't doubt it and no you're right that's not the point, not even close the the point. Falwel appeared, in his public persona at least to be a man totally lacking in redeeming features but I can't hate the man, only the persona. Why? because I never met him, so for me that's really not possible - it would be akin to hating the bad guy in a western. On the other hand, like you I despise what he stood for and what he evidently believed in and it's consequenes but that, to me at least is not quite the same thing. It's a fine distinction to be sure, but there it is.

Shouting has no effect on me, except perhaps to make me smile. I hear you, it's hard not to, but I also try and filter the white noise and listen for the timbre. Sadly, the US doesn't have a world monopoly on asinine and bigotted behaviour, or for that matter the machinations of the terminally dense, though from what I sometimes read here, it seems willing to try.

Not at all. I don't give a fuck about people's feelings. I'm honestly sick to death of having feelings elevated over facts. <...> I'm doing exactly what I intended, as I have no interest at all in how it is received.

I know, you've said so, at length but then I wasn't suggesting you did or should, for the most part neither do I, save those close to me. There is a downside to that however; when taken to extreme a complete intransigence to 'feelings' will likely manifest itself in abhorrent behaviours, like Falwel for example. His behaviour was surely motivated by his 'feelings' and his disregard for those of others or how what he said was received, it had to be as there were no facts to underpin what he said. Before you explode, no I'm not comparing you to him, so please don't go there.

I also have no affection for corpses, and I find it disgusting, but to each his own.

Nor me, though I don't know why you said that?

You're completely missing my point. It's okay, you're free to look at things however you choose, but to keep saying I'm doing what I despised in him is just completely innacurate. Please, stop being sure you know how I feel better than I do, because you don't. I'm perfectly capable of representing myself, and I neither need nor want a pr man, okay? I don't mind if people think I'm a reprehensible ass, or whatever else they might think. There is very little I put into print without considering it very carefully, I will NEVER just bite my tongue and keep silent, ever. I couldn't live with myself.

Perhaps, but no more than you seem to have missed mine, but that's OK. I'm not at all sure I know how you feel, but then I've not said I do nor have I tried, to the best of my knowledge anyway but perhaps you can illustrate? Ah, when I said I was sure you thought tolerance and compassion were vrtues does that mean you dont? if so, sorry. Anyway when I advocated biting your tongue, I didn't expect for one second you would, quite the reverse in fact - I fully expected exactly this reaction but as you say it wouldn't be you to do otherwise.

What I said was that sometimes, just sometimes discretion can be the wiser course. I stand by that, whether it works for you or not is another matter.

Words do NOT equal behavior. I'm not advocating anyone beat up Christians, or legislate against them. I'm not skimming out of the church till, I'm not taking money from DRUG COMPANIES to help finance my campaigns, I'm not promoting hatred of others into legislation to protect my own superiority. Speaking the truth about an evil and corrupt man isn't "just as bad" unless you're just completely stupid. He had the balls to DO the things he did, me pointing it out is just acknowledging reality. Duh.

No, but here in the virtual world of LPSG it's all we have.

I didn't suggest you were advocating those things, you know that so please don't put words in my mouth. Speaking the truth is rarely a bad thing and it's hardly fair to say I said it was 'just as bad' merely that it was like behaviour and, to me seemed somewhat ironic in context. I'm not the only one who thinks that, or has said so here, though I don't expect you care.

When someone does something horrible, it is the responsibility of every sane person to renounce it. When someone rapes a kid, do you feel that you should "not speak ill of the dead"? Of course not, don't be absurd. Falwell was an aggressive, domineering asshole who ruined the lives of many, I don't give a shit how anyone feels about his passing, I'm relieved.

Yes, but the thrust of my comments were simply this; surely it's better to do that while they're alive. When they're 6 feet under the opportunity has passed.

It's an interesting parallel you draw but, then it's not quite the same thing. In that instance it may be possible to obtain retribution and punishment for the perpetrator. In the matter at hand; Falwel is dead, and while harsh language and condemnation may help you feel better it's entirely wasted on him. Really, that's all I was trying to say.

But if it makes you feel better I have no problem with that, as I've already said. No, I didn't expect you to 'bite your tongue' but by the same token don't expect me not to voice my opinion on what I saw to a large degree as folly.

I know you feel differently, and that's your right too.

You see, now you're telling me how I feel. You're not quite right but, that aside, yes it's my right too.

The difference in my response being that I'm not about to shout about how much you doing so irritates me; partly because it doesn't, partly because there's some truth there but mostly, much like yourself I could care less.:smile:

 

[HUNGHUGE11X7]

Originally Posted by SteveHd
Now that I've been grouped with liberals, I've taken another look at this thread and I don't like the company.Looks bad doesn't it?

Naw, it looks fine to me.

Yeah looks mighty fine to me as well . What looks even finer to me is your very impressive gallery :tongue: :tongue:


Back to FALWELL, any true Christian I know of and I do know several even though I am Pagan believes he was borderline fanatical/evil.
Anytime you preach hatred on any one group that is bigotry. Since when is bigotry a Christian value ? Christ would NEVER have done such so what makes his fan club think they have the right to spew such venom ?
Like every other homophobe he was probably getting his dick fix on the side, my condolences to the owner of said dick :biggrin1: .
Calling Falwell a Christian is like saying BUSH is a genius.
You cannot contradict your actions with what the tenets of your belief support..............THAT IS A HYPOCRITE.

In cases of Falwell and others like him I WISH there were such a place as HELL, where he could burn forever but while I entertain mythology I don't lend credence to such beliefs.


:banana:
HORSE

 

[LeeEJ]

Nothing, given time is irreversible at the human level. Take heart from that fact.

Maybe, but when it's "set in stone" as the Bible supposedly is, then it's going to take a really long time.

I don't think I'll be alive to see it happen, honestly.

 

[madame_zora]

You keep reminding me that 'I don't live here', I'm not sure why, do you think I may somehow forget? Quite the reverse in fact and for that I am increasingly thankful. As for telling me what I have or haven't experienced, how would you possibly know?

Well, I was going by your own words Dong. FWIW, I'm not angry at you in the least, I'm not always sure that's apparent. YOU said originally that you didn't know much about Falwell other than being aware of his general demeanor, so I thought it was fair to remind you what a horrific toll he took on life in America. Had it not been so, I wouldn't be reacting so harshly. I am also aware that manners in general are viewed quite differently here than there, and that our different ways of looking at what is proper probably have a lot to do with our respective environments.

You HAVEN'T experienced living under a government that did not include Jerry Falwell, then have to tolerate one that did- of that much I can be sure.

I don't doubt it and no you're right that's not the point, not even close the the point. Falwel appeared, in his public persona at least to be a man totally lacking in redeeming features but I can't hate the man, only the persona. Why? because I never met him, so for me that's really not possible - it would be akin to hating the bad guy in a western. On the other hand, like you I despise what he stood for and what he evidently believed in and it's consequenes but that, to me at least is not quite the same thing. It's a fine distinction to be sure, but there it is.

I don't know about not hating the man. I think a man IS the sum of his actions. I can't draw a distinction. HE is the motivation for what HE DID. I'm sure I must seem obtuse, but this is a man who ruined lives by the hundreds of thousands with no apologies at all. I don't care to try very hard to separate his actions from his person, nor am I sure I even get the point. I'll call this one MY shortcoming.

Shouting has no effect on me, except perhaps to make me smile. I hear you, it's hard not to, but I also try and filter the white noise and listen for the timbre. Sadly, the US doesn't have a world monopoly on asinine and bigotted behaviour, or for that matter the machinations of the terminally dense, though from what I sometimes read here, it seems willing to try.

Haha, I really wasn't talking about our specific conversation there, you and I have conversed before and I wouldn't try to win YOU over by shouting. That particular comment was about my Americanism. That's why I wrote (here, not there). As a woman, as a person of ethnicity, I find myself having very little voice until I raise it to fever pitch, then people ask "Why are you shouting?". My frustration comes from the fact that this is often the only way I can be heard, in my real life. I think it shows very much in my communication style on the board, and I was trying to give background, not threaten you with unpleasantries.:tongue:

I know, you've said so, at length but then I wasn't suggesting you did or should, for the most part neither do I, save those close to me. There is a downside to that however; when taken to extreme a complete intransigence to 'feelings' will likely manifest itself in abhorrent behaviours, like Falwel for example. His behaviour was surely motivated by his 'feelings' and his disregard for those of others or how what he said was received, it had to be as there were no facts to underpin what he said.

We seem to be agreeing here. Feelings are NOT facts, nor should they be elevated to the level of facts. Creationism and evolution are NOT equal propositions, and if they are treated as such, reality itself takes a direct hit. I am angry because there are not enough people in my country defending reality against the onslaught of the unwashed masses. If those who can don't raise our voices and raise them loudly, we stand to lose a great deal. I'm fighting ignorance, and it's got big guns, like Falwell.

Perhaps, but no more than you seem to have missed mine, but that's OK. I'm not at all sure I know how you feel, but then I've not said I do nor have I tried, to the best of my knowledge anyway but perhaps you can illustrate? Ah, when I said I was sure you thought tolerance and compassion were vrtues does that mean you dont? if so, sorry. Anyway when I advocated biting your tongue, I didn't expect for one second you would, quite the reverse in fact - I fully expected exactly this reaction but as you say it wouldn't be you to do otherwise.

Right, it was the part I bolded to which I was objecting- that you were sure I'd agree. As a matter of fact, I've taken exception many times to the idea that one can tolerate intolerance. It just can't be done. I can't tolerate white people calling black people niggers. If I do, I'm a useless human being- that's really how I feel. If someone suggests that by calling someone out, I'm the same as the racist, I have to write them off as an idiot. You said that perhaps discretion would suit my needs better, but I just disagree. MY communication style is the only one that suits ME and the goals I am trying to accomplish.

Falwell was a homophobe, a racist, and liar and a fraud. He was a theif, a manipulator- and all those things would be bad enough, but he was BUSY on top of it all. This could happen again here, clearly the ground is fertile.

I didn't suggest you were advocating those things, you know that so please don't put words in my mouth. Speaking the truth is rarely a bad thing and it's hardly fair to say I said it was 'just as bad' merely that it was like behaviour and, to me seemed somewhat ironic in context. I'm not the only one who thinks that, or has said so here, though I don't expect you care.

Well, "like behavior" is also not a yoke I'm willing to accept. Speaking the truth cannot be bad, restraining it in any way IS. I don't know why people are uncomfortable about speaking ill of the dead, but having worked a number of years in the death care industry, I am aware of the superstitions surrounding it. I am not superstitious, nor am I talking TO the dead. I guess that's kind of pissing me off, you act like I'm trying to get Falwell to hear me! I'm not delusional Dong, I'm speaking to the living! I want the people who looked up to this wretch of a person to know how others really feel about him, and them by association. I'm really not trying to make friends.

Yes, but the thrust of my comments were simply this; surely it's better to do that while they're alive. When they're 6 feet under the opportunity has passed.

Right. Like he'd have answered a letter from me.

As I said, I'm not talking TO him, just his followers. The point I'm trying to make is that the passing of a homophobe is nothing to mourn, and lots of people are busy not mourning him. That's a good point to make posthumously.

It's an interesting parallel you draw but, then it's not quite the same thing. In that instance it may be possible to obtain retribution and punishment for the perpetrator. In the matter at hand; Falwel is dead, and while harsh language and condemnation may help you feel better it's entirely wasted on him. Really, that's all I was trying to say.

It would be repetitive to explain this a third time. I think we know each other's points by now.

You see, now you're telling me how I feel. You're not quite right but, that aside, yes it's my right too.

The difference in my response being that I'm not about to shout about how much you doing so irritates me; partly because it doesn't, partly because there's some truth there but mostly, much like yourself I could care less.:smile:

Dong, I only said "I know you feel differently than me", how is that telling you how you feel? You've objected to my opinions throughout this exchange, how is it unfair of me to take you at your word? I know you feel you're taking the high road by not "shouting" you points, because you've pointed this out several times before, and you're pointing it out again now. If I can't believe what you tell me directly, what point is there in us talking?

Here's what I see:

You haven't had to deal with Falwell much, but dislike his stance.

I've had to deal with him a great deal, and am furious as hell about his imfluence on my life and the life of my kid.

You're from the UK, I'm from the states. FWIW, british humour is far more subtle, and Brits in general seem better at picking up on nuances. Your society has been around for thousands of years longer, and overall you're a more developed people. This kind of fundamentalism has been over with there for a very long time.

You're polite, I'm angry and rude. You're removed from this, I'm dealing with it still.

Not too hard to understand either one of our positions really.