Petraeus Says U.S. Violated Geneva Conventions

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Industrialsize, May 29, 2009.

  1. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    And he did it on FOX news!.....During the Bush?Cheney regime General Petraeus could do and say no wrong. Hell, his name has been floated as a Presidential candidate for the Repubs in 2012. It seems he has gone "off script"

    "A couple of days ago, I chronicled the quickening departure of some big military names from the Republican party, those concerned about the party moving even farther to the right a number of issues, including torture. What struck me at the time is that General David Petraeus came out against torture and for closing Guantanamo.
    I was stunned, however, when he admitted today that the United States has violated the Geneva Conventions. Without saying specifically how we did (though it doesn't take much imagination to figure it out), Petraeus said on FOX News:"
    Question: So is sending this signal that we're not going to use these kind of techniques anymore, what kind of impact does this have on people who do us harm in the field that you operate in?
    Gen. Petraeus: Well, actually what I would ask is, "Does that not take away from our enemies a tool which again have beaten us around the head and shoulders in the court of public opinion?" When we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think it's important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those.
    Jon Soltz: Petraeus Says U.S. Violated Geneva Conventions - What Will Cheney and Rush Say?
     
  2. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but according to you... FOX news is not a news network, is Faux News, and manufacturers everything to make ratings. So how can even believe what you are seeing.

    Knew you were a closet Republican. It's ok.
     
  3. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    No you can comment on the SUBSTANCE of what the General had to say.
     
  4. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Lordy... with you... I just stopped reminding you ad hominem to reply to the topic and challenge the premise laid by the OP. By the Industrials, PYMs, VinylBoys, and esp Houtx69 or whatever.

    In the interim, you can deftly backpeddle on your ...now taking Fox News seriously, once the opinion tilts your way.
     
  5. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    I wish I could kinda see some of this, but your sources don't seem to quote FoxNews

    huffington post
    then crooksandliars.com
    and then the huffington post again.

    Please provide the FoxNews source.
     
  6. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    What will Cheney and Rush Say?

    I imagine they will say Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder didn't think we were violating the Geneva Conventions:

    One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

    It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohammed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not. - Eric Holder, Former Deputy Attorney General in 2002

    (You may need to see and hear Holder say this himself...)​

     
  7. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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  8. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Wow... just wow. On both levels.
    For Petraeus having the nerve to go to the Lion's Den with his statements, and for some of our dissenters for stretching rhetoric to the highest level to not draw a difference between a news organization and the people who do the taking.
     
  9. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Then Cheney and Rush would say:

    Congress approved into law the suspension of habeas corpus and the detention of detainees in Guantanomo Bay in the Military Commissions Act.

    Democrats did not object and 12 Dems voted to pass it:
    When the White House proposed this bill, Democrats were as meek and as silent as could be. They literally disappeared from the debate, allowing the illusion of "negotiations" between the White House on the one hand, and a handful of allegedly principled and independent Republican Senators (McCain, Warner and Graham) on the other.
    When -- as was both painfully predictable and predicted -- those Republican Senators capitulated almost in full to the White House, "winning" only the most meaninglessly symbolic linguistic changes to the bill while acquiescing to its most Draconian provisions, the fate of the bill was sealed because Democrats had ceded their authority to those "rebel" GOP Senators. - Glenn Greenwald, Salon.com

     
  10. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    um.......the topic is Torture and that thing called the Geneva Convention.
     
  11. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    The irony is that Fox would "report" this, ie: play the quote, at all, given that its message is contrary to everything and every value it and its viewers would seem to hold dear. I'm quite certain my new stepfather is extremely displeased with them just now.
     
  12. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Yeah I know...

    Congress approved the Military Commissions Act of 2006:
    Geneva Conventions
    Section 5 of the MCA declares that no one may invoke the Geneva Conventions as a source of rights in a U.S. court case against the United States or one of its agents.

    Torture
    The MCA makes applicable to U.S. personnel accused of violating Common Article 3 between September 11, 2001 and December 30, 2005, a defense established by the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (DTA), which was enacted on the latter date. Such personnel may escape criminal conviction for waterboarding and like practices if they believed in good faith that what they were doing was lawful. The relevant provision of the DTA in turn makes reliance on memos of the sort produced by the Justice Department "an important factor" in determining knowledge and good faith.

    Habeas Corpus
    ...alien victims of torture who are declared by the executive to be enemy combatants have no ability to bring their claims to court. Section 7 of the MCA eliminates the right of habeas corpus and the right to bring a petition challenging "any other action [by] the United States or its agents relating to any aspect of the detention, transfer, treatment, trial or conditions of confinement of" such persons.
    Why The Military Commissions Act is No Moderate Compromise- by Michael Dorf, Findlaw.com

     
  13. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Finally Cheney and Rush would say,

    The Supreme Court had already determined that the Geneva Conventions had been violated by the Military Commissions Act, so the General was merely stating a point of fact subsequent to their ruling. The Attorney General Eric Holder disagreed in 2002 and the Supreme Court was split on the ruling 5-4.


    Then...They might let Rachel Maddow close it out for them...

    YouTube - Rachel Maddow: Indefinite detention? Shame on you... President Obama
     
  14. sparky11point5

    sparky11point5 New Member

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    When Petraeus testified in favor of ongoing operations in Iraq, I was skeptical of his independence from political pressure. In retrospect, he was correct that the US could decrease violence in Iraq by recruiting Sunni groups against the extremists and increased patrols. This approach is what the MSM simplified as the 'surge'. Yet, I thought at the time that he was thoughtful and well-grounded in his strategy. (We were already in Iraq, so this is not about justification for the war, which I still vehemently disagree.)

    I am therefore not surprised that Petraeus made these remarks. (He actually had a very similar interview on the Armed Forces network a few days before Fox.) I think most active duty military officers would take the same position. The Geneva Convention also protects our troops, and it would be dangerous to subvert it by the US ignoring it or following it only when it is convenient. Also, Petraeus seems very aware of the political nature off all conflicts, and knows that a solution in Iraq is going to depend on a political settlement. The US would be working against this by inflaming the population against any political settlement. Torture (or even just abusing) prisoners is guaranteed to encourage extremism.
     
  15. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    Terrorists don't follow the rule of law, don't adhere to the Constitution and do not abide by the Geneva Conventions.

    That statement sounds like the papers signed at the Geneva Convention can be pinned to soldiers' uniforms like a new impenetrable forcefield or body armor for the troops that simply does not exist.
     
  16. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Apparently, certain members of the previous administration didn't care to follow any of this random stuff at all. Which is why they went to great lengths to rewrite existing laws so they can try and get away with it.

    Alas, you don't want to call Cheney and company a terrorist or a war criminal. Such a double standard.
     
  17. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    No, many just agree with Obama's Attorney General Eric Holder that detainees don't fall under the Geneva Conventions.

    One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.


    It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohammed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not. - Eric Holder, Former Deputy Attorney General in 2002

     
  18. Industrialsize

    Staff Member Moderator Gold Member

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    You can keep printing that quote from Holder from 2002 til the cows come home, It doesn;t make Cheney any less of a war criminal.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...ex-rape/?cid=bs:archive15#gallery=298;page=13
     
    #18 Industrialsize, May 30, 2009
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
  19. houtx48

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    hey facequeen if he said it, does not matter where he said it. could have shouted on a street corner and the message would still be the same, would it not?
     
  20. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    The article from the daily beast is very poignant. It can be noted that the soldiers from Abu Ghraib who acted on their own outside of interrogations and documented their abuses in photos were prosecuted.

    Those abuses do not equal Cheney is a war criminal.

    But if Cheney is a war criminal and guilty of war crimes, shouldn't Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Congress have impeached Bush and Cheney when the charges were introduced in Congress?
     
    #20 Trinity, May 30, 2009
    Last edited: May 30, 2009
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