Piracy increases music sales

blazblue

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My best friend and I are prime examples of the fact that piracy can increase record sales.

He and I both have discovered a love of Asian music, my favorite artists being Mihimaru GT, Perfume, Kreva, and Utada Hikaru. Not a single one is available, commonly, in a "record store." In fact, I have to go on Japanese iTunes (they list artists regionally) to even find them!

But, because I like their stuff, I will pay for someone in Hokkaido to put a CD or DVD into an envelope, and pay them to ship it to me. He does the same thing for his favorite artists. A client was in Tokyo, on the release date of Perfume's album Triangle, and I asked her to pick up a copy for me.

My favorite jazz band, oddly, is Portuguese.

And, each of us found them, through "file sharing."

I'm living proof that, if done right, it can certainly increase sales.

But that's just you RNGM. You can't vouch for all of the other millions of people who pirate music who may or may not decide to buy it later on.
 

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So far only a handful of people here supposedly say that they pirate music before buying it. But that still in no way proves that it improves sales just because you buy the music eventually. Have you all personally talked to everyone who pirates music? If not then how can any of you really say that the industry benefits from it?

Simple, because the future of Music will be without industry.

its so hard to understand? this is already happening with few, the future of sales will be directly controlled by the artist/band on their websites, while the promotion will be expanding by downloading of sharing their music, and those artists with their teams will be their own industry, so no more physical music, have you notice that we are in the digital era? the proof is the stupid reactions of the old industry which dont want to accept this reality.

Many people confuse this, its ILEGAL when you download a song and get any financial benefits from it, is NOT ilegal having a song and sharing it, besides, from the moment you share you are doing label work for free which means you are promoting their artist without being paid by them, so labels should be thankful for that because they are getting the benefits of not paying the people who promote/share their artist.

If i start acting like the music industry is acting NOW with censorships, blocking websites, courts and stuff, then I would demand compensation from them by each time their artists advertisements appears here on MY internet which I pay to personal use, and on MY computer/desktop which I also paid to my personal use, and its my property, if they want to promotes their artists on my computer they should pay me for that, sounds logical for me.
 
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blazblue

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Simple, because the future of Music will be without industry.

its so hard to understand? this is already happening with few, the future of sells will be directly controlled by the artist/band on their websites, while the promotion will be expanding by downloading of sharing their music, and those artists with their teams will be their own industry, so no more physical music, have you notice that we are in the digital era? the proof is the stupid reactions of the old industry which dont want to accept this reality.

Many people confuse this, its ILEGAL when you download a song and get any financial benefits from it, is NOT ilegal having a song and sharing it, besides, from the moment you share you are doing label work for free which means you are promoting their artist without being paid by them, so labels should be thankful for that because they are getting the benefits of having people who promotes and dont even work for them.

You haven't listened to a word I've said have you? I want to know how many people are actually buying the music after they pirate it since you keep you saying that it helps the industry. There isn't any data that suggests that piracy either helps or hinders the industry which what I have been asking for all along. Data, which you have still failed to provide. Hell, you still haven't even told us where that U.S. study was from.
 

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I do actually tend to buy more media when I've downloaded and thought I like that it's just nice to have the official case and stuff of something thats genuinely good the problem is they need to make some decent stuff instead of the mainstream garbage that's on sale today - it's all the same in one way or another holywood and the music industry (MI especially guilty of being the same in nearly every song being about love or dating or some shit) need to be more original instead of blaming pirates for the loss?(lol) of sales
 

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Hell I say to you, another news from the same subject,its everywhere, google is your friend never ignore him:

"Study: BitTorrent music piracy increases album sales

Leaked album piracy raised sales by 60 on average

A recent study has found that raised BitTorrent piracy may be related to higher album sales. North Carolina State University assistant professor Robert Hammond monitored prerelease albums being downloaded through BitTorrent and compared the numbers with actual album sales. The investigation is said to have uncovered a direct correlation between the two, albeit minor.

The paper, titled "Profit Leak? Pre-Release File Sharing and the Music Industry", explains how Hammond gathered download statistics from a large private BitTorrent tracker dedicated to music between May 2010 and January 2011, and comparing instances of leaked album downloads against eventual sales. After monitoring 1,095 albums, Hammond noted “The findings suggest that file sharing of an album benefits its sales. I don't find any evidence of a negative effect in any specification using any instrument.”

Although the effect is positive to album sales, the increase was found to be 59.6 additional purchases on average. The study did not consider BitTorrent downloads after release, nor does it take into account singles sales more associated with “casual piracy."

Historically, entities such as the RIAA have railed against illegal music downloads, believing them to be damaging music sales. Likewise, the MPAA has done the same for movie downloads, however a similar report in February suggested that movie rips were not affecting box office revenues."

want more?

"French anti-P2P law cuts back pirating, but music sales still decline

The French authority Hadopi released a report on the effects of its law …

France's three-strikes anti-piracy law is one of the strictest in the world. It employs private companies to scan file-sharing networks for copyright infringement and sends warnings to pirates if they're caught red-handed. The law, enforced by a French authority called Hadopi, was instated 17 months ago to the applause of music copyright holders and their representatives. Although an early study originally showed piracy had actually increased after the anti-P2P law passed, Hadopi released a report this March saying French ISP users had significantly decreased their illegal file sharing. Despite that announcement, the French music industry still saw a decline in revenue.

Hadopi used the reports of two different companies to ascertain the decrease in pirated traffic. One metric said illegal data sharing on peer-to-peer networks decreased by 43 percent; another survey used a different methodology and saw a 66 percent decrease in illegal P2P traffic. While Hadopi only monitors peer-to-peer networks, its recent study noted there's "no indication that there has been a massive transfer in forms of use to streaming technologies or direct downloads."

For all the fanfare in Hadopi's 14-page report celebrating the crackdown on music and video piracy, the music and video industries in France did not see increased profit in 2011 compared to the year before. The overall recorded music industry saw a 3.9 percent loss, and France's video market dropped 2.7 percent overall.

The depressed sales likely won't take copyright holders off the warpath. In fact, both music and video industries saw significant increases in purchases of digital media. In music, download revenues increased by 18.4 percent. Streaming and subscriptions revenue grew by 73 percent, largely due to the rising popularity of Spotify and Deezer. According to a domestic video publisher's group, video-on-demand sales increased 50 percent.

An article on the French website Numerama also noted that streaming music played a large part in increasing sales of digital music downloads, and surprisingly, concert tickets. Streaming music did not, however, influence a user's impetus to buy CDs.

These numbers show that despite the hemming and hawing about piracy eating up entertainment industry revenue, the transition from physical discs to digital files is a huge factor in negative growth. No matter what, music industry officials are unlikely to let up on piracy. More than likely, they will adopt the argument that media sales would be even lower without ISP monitoring."

WAKE UP!!! are you in 21 Century? want data? then first get the data from those labels who said that piracy was responsible for the declined of their sales....then came back and I give you data which proves the opposite.

The music industry keeps claiming that piracy leads to significant losses in sales for them ("Every downloaded CD equals one missed CD sale"). While this is probably impossible to prove (and the evidence suggests that it may not be the case anyway), we now should be able to measure a significant increase in CD sales (or paid download sales) now that Megaupload has been taken down.
 
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blazblue

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If i start acting like the music industry is acting NOW with censorships, blocking websites, courts and stuff, then I would demand compensation from them by each time their artists advertisements appears here on MY internet which I pay to personal use, and on MY computer/desktop which I also paid to my personal use, and its my property, if they want to promotes their artists on my computer they should pay me for that, sounds logical for me.

Again, this isn't about what the music industry does, this is about YOU not providing any kind of data to support your claim which is what I've been asking for all along.
 

blazblue

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Hell I say to you, another news from the same subject,its everywhere, google is your friend never ignore him:

"Study: BitTorrent music piracy increases album sales

Leaked album piracy raised sales by 60 on average

A recent study has found that raised BitTorrent piracy may be related to higher album sales. North Carolina State University assistant professor Robert Hammond monitored prerelease albums being downloaded through BitTorrent and compared the numbers with actual album sales. The investigation is said to have uncovered a direct correlation between the two, albeit minor.

The paper, titled "Profit Leak? Pre-Release File Sharing and the Music Industry", explains how Hammond gathered download statistics from a large private BitTorrent tracker dedicated to music between May 2010 and January 2011, and comparing instances of leaked album downloads against eventual sales. After monitoring 1,095 albums, Hammond noted “The findings suggest that file sharing of an album benefits its sales. I don't find any evidence of a negative effect in any specification using any instrument.”

Although the effect is positive to album sales, the increase was found to be 59.6 additional purchases on average. The study did not consider BitTorrent downloads after release, nor does it take into account singles sales more associated with “casual piracy."

Historically, entities such as the RIAA have railed against illegal music downloads, believing them to be damaging music sales. Likewise, the MPAA has done the same for movie downloads, however a similar report in February suggested that movie rips were not affecting box office revenues."

want more?

"French anti-P2P law cuts back pirating, but music sales still decline

The French authority Hadopi released a report on the effects of its law …

France's three-strikes anti-piracy law is one of the strictest in the world. It employs private companies to scan file-sharing networks for copyright infringement and sends warnings to pirates if they're caught red-handed. The law, enforced by a French authority called Hadopi, was instated 17 months ago to the applause of music copyright holders and their representatives. Although an early study originally showed piracy had actually increased after the anti-P2P law passed, Hadopi released a report this March saying French ISP users had significantly decreased their illegal file sharing. Despite that announcement, the French music industry still saw a decline in revenue.

Hadopi used the reports of two different companies to ascertain the decrease in pirated traffic. One metric said illegal data sharing on peer-to-peer networks decreased by 43 percent; another survey used a different methodology and saw a 66 percent decrease in illegal P2P traffic. While Hadopi only monitors peer-to-peer networks, its recent study noted there's "no indication that there has been a massive transfer in forms of use to streaming technologies or direct downloads."

For all the fanfare in Hadopi's 14-page report celebrating the crackdown on music and video piracy, the music and video industries in France did not see increased profit in 2011 compared to the year before. The overall recorded music industry saw a 3.9 percent loss, and France's video market dropped 2.7 percent overall.

The depressed sales likely won't take copyright holders off the warpath. In fact, both music and video industries saw significant increases in purchases of digital media. In music, download revenues increased by 18.4 percent. Streaming and subscriptions revenue grew by 73 percent, largely due to the rising popularity of Spotify and Deezer. According to a domestic video publisher's group, video-on-demand sales increased 50 percent.

An article on the French website Numerama also noted that streaming music played a large part in increasing sales of digital music downloads, and surprisingly, concert tickets. Streaming music did not, however, influence a user's impetus to buy CDs.

These numbers show that despite the hemming and hawing about piracy eating up entertainment industry revenue, the transition from physical discs to digital files is a huge factor in negative growth. No matter what, music industry officials are unlikely to let up on piracy. More than likely, they will adopt the argument that media sales would be even lower without ISP monitoring."

WAKE UP!!! are you in 21 Century? want data? then first get the data from those labels who said that piracy was responsible for the declined of their sales....then came back and I give you data which proves the opposite.

But you aren't providing us with any links to your sources which was the point. You come here giving us all of these studies but you aren't providing us with links to actually verify your sources. Why should I have to google it when you're the one who started the topic and providing the information?

And I noticed this and I found it to be interesting...

A recent study has found that raised BitTorrent piracy may be related to higher album sales.

If that's true then its no guarantee that piracy will lead to increased sales. If you really want me to believe that piracy has a positive impact, I'll need to know how many people actually pirate, the percentage of people who buy that selected media after they pirate, and the percentage of people who just don't buy that media at all after they pirate so that I can do my own analysis. Sorry, I can't take the word of a few random faceless strangers from the internet. Especially someone who won't even provide links to his sources.
 

blazblue

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The music industry keeps claiming that piracy leads to significant losses in sales for them ("Every downloaded CD equals one missed CD sale"). While this is probably impossible to prove (and the evidence suggests that it may not be the case anyway), we now should be able to measure a significant increase in CD sales (or paid download sales) now that Megaupload has been taken down.

And this was the point of my argument. If it's impossible to prove that there's been a negative impact, how the hell are you gonna prove that there's a positive one? There's just not nearly enough information.
 

LuciferChild

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why do you want the link if you dont understand portuguese...

heres the link then,entertain : Pirataria aumenta vendas de música - Exame Informática

if piracy cant be proven as bad then can only be proven as good, and I used this study to try to show people that piracy can be a good thing, for myself this study is a non-study, because its shows the obvious and logical, before this study I already had this is mind about piracy.

If you read the first post of this thread you see that the study included 1095 albuns from 1075 artists, which is a lot to came with a proper result, is not enough for you?

another link - http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-piracy-boosts-music-sales-study-finds-120517/
 
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blazblue

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why do you want the link if you dont understand portuguese...

heres the link then,entertain : Pirataria aumenta vendas de música - Exame Informática

if piracy cant be proven as bad then can only be proven as good, and I used this study to try to show people that piracy can be a good thing, for myself this study is a non-study, because its shows the obvious and logical, before this study I already had this is mind about piracy.

The issue here isn't whether or not piracy is good or not. The issue here is the claim that piracy caused increased sales in the industry and I've been trying to tell you that there is no to way ever know since we have no idea how many people pirate and then buy that desired media. Parts of your sources even say that piracy had no effect on sales. Which means while it didn't have a negative impact, it didn't have a positive one either. But what difference does make? It doesn't matter if piracy is good or evil or if it leads to increased sales, because even though companies will say that piracy is bad, they always continue to make boatloads money regardless if people pirate or not. My belief is that piracy is neither good nor evil since none of us know the full effect of piracy on different corporations.

My other issue with is with your lack to provide us with links to cite your sources. Speaking of which, where are the links to any of this stuff??


A U.S. study showed that illegal file sharing can be good for the music industry and help sell more albums.

The conclusion was indicated by the investigator Robert Hammond. Between 2010 and 2011, Professor Hammond evaluated the statistics of downloads by torrents of albums before their official release, explains the Boy Genius Report. Then compare the numbers of illegal downloads with the official sales of the albums after the release and concluded that there is a connection.
"I found no negative aspect, in any specification," says Hammond to conclude that piracy has a beneficial effect on music sales.
The study focused on 1095 albums by 1075 artists, focusing on albums that were released in torrents before its official release.
In addition to arguing that piracy can have beneficial effects on music sales, Hammond goes further and says that pursuing the sites where the albums are available can negatively affect sales. Hammond suggests that piracy is a form of advertising, as with the playlists of radio and advertising campaigns.


http://exameinformatica.sapo.pt/incoming/2012/03/15/pirate586.jpg/ALTERNATES/w620h395/pirate586.jpg

Hell I say to you, another news from the same subject,its everywhere, google is your friend never ignore him:

"Study: BitTorrent music piracy increases album sales

Leaked album piracy raised sales by 60 on average

A recent study has found that raised BitTorrent piracy may be related to higher album sales. North Carolina State University assistant professor Robert Hammond monitored prerelease albums being downloaded through BitTorrent and compared the numbers with actual album sales. The investigation is said to have uncovered a direct correlation between the two, albeit minor.

The paper, titled "Profit Leak? Pre-Release File Sharing and the Music Industry", explains how Hammond gathered download statistics from a large private BitTorrent tracker dedicated to music between May 2010 and January 2011, and comparing instances of leaked album downloads against eventual sales. After monitoring 1,095 albums, Hammond noted “The findings suggest that file sharing of an album benefits its sales. I don't find any evidence of a negative effect in any specification using any instrument.”

Although the effect is positive to album sales, the increase was found to be 59.6 additional purchases on average. The study did not consider BitTorrent downloads after release, nor does it take into account singles sales more associated with “casual piracy."

Historically, entities such as the RIAA have railed against illegal music downloads, believing them to be damaging music sales. Likewise, the MPAA has done the same for movie downloads, however a similar report in February suggested that movie rips were not affecting box office revenues."

want more?

"French anti-P2P law cuts back pirating, but music sales still decline

The French authority Hadopi released a report on the effects of its law …

France's three-strikes anti-piracy law is one of the strictest in the world. It employs private companies to scan file-sharing networks for copyright infringement and sends warnings to pirates if they're caught red-handed. The law, enforced by a French authority called Hadopi, was instated 17 months ago to the applause of music copyright holders and their representatives. Although an early study originally showed piracy had actually increased after the anti-P2P law passed, Hadopi released a report this March saying French ISP users had significantly decreased their illegal file sharing. Despite that announcement, the French music industry still saw a decline in revenue.

Hadopi used the reports of two different companies to ascertain the decrease in pirated traffic. One metric said illegal data sharing on peer-to-peer networks decreased by 43 percent; another survey used a different methodology and saw a 66 percent decrease in illegal P2P traffic. While Hadopi only monitors peer-to-peer networks, its recent study noted there's "no indication that there has been a massive transfer in forms of use to streaming technologies or direct downloads."

For all the fanfare in Hadopi's 14-page report celebrating the crackdown on music and video piracy, the music and video industries in France did not see increased profit in 2011 compared to the year before. The overall recorded music industry saw a 3.9 percent loss, and France's video market dropped 2.7 percent overall.

The depressed sales likely won't take copyright holders off the warpath. In fact, both music and video industries saw significant increases in purchases of digital media. In music, download revenues increased by 18.4 percent. Streaming and subscriptions revenue grew by 73 percent, largely due to the rising popularity of Spotify and Deezer. According to a domestic video publisher's group, video-on-demand sales increased 50 percent.

An article on the French website Numerama also noted that streaming music played a large part in increasing sales of digital music downloads, and surprisingly, concert tickets. Streaming music did not, however, influence a user's impetus to buy CDs.

These numbers show that despite the hemming and hawing about piracy eating up entertainment industry revenue, the transition from physical discs to digital files is a huge factor in negative growth. No matter what, music industry officials are unlikely to let up on piracy. More than likely, they will adopt the argument that media sales would be even lower without ISP monitoring."

WAKE UP!!! are you in 21 Century? want data? then first get the data from those labels who said that piracy was responsible for the declined of their sales....then came back and I give you data which proves the opposite.

The music industry keeps claiming that piracy leads to significant losses in sales for them ("Every downloaded CD equals one missed CD sale"). While this is probably impossible to prove (and the evidence suggests that it may not be the case anyway), we now should be able to measure a significant increase in CD sales (or paid download sales) now that Megaupload has been taken down.
 

blazblue

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then if for you piracy is neutral why being attacked?

links - Study: BitTorrent music piracy increases album sales | Electronista

- French anti-P2P law cuts back pirating, but music sales still decline | Ars Technica

happy? im going to sleep, this isnt over yet lol

It's being attacked only because they're trying to squeeze an extra buck out of us. They're still a business after all. If piracy hurts them, why are they still making millions of dollars? Once again, my argument is that there is simply not enough information to really know what effect piracy has on the industry overall.
 
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1kmb1

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Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc. (1984)

the Court held that home recording of copyrighted television programs is a "fair use" of the copyrighted material and, thus, does not violate the Copyright Act.

if this music is freely available via the radio, or even paid for through satellite radio. then it is perfectly legal for me to procure a copy for my own use. :biggrin1:
 

dandelion

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So far only a handful of people here supposedly say that they pirate music before buying it. But that still in no way proves that it improves sales just because you buy the music eventually. Have you all personally talked to everyone who pirates music? If not then how can any of you really say that the industry benefits from it?
I think you are getting a bit overexcited here. This is a chat forum on a big dick website, not a professional research organisation. People may have seen an article about this and mention it here, or they can tell you their own experiences.

I'd say a very good point was made by someone who asked whether there is any evidence to support industry claims that each download is a lost sale. I'd say that is total rubbish. So on the basis of the evidence, no sales have been lost.

I remember when the CD was first introduced people remarked on how expensive it is. Bluntly i have more recorded music around the house than I ever listen to, so why would I want any more? Certainly not at full price. If I buy CDs - legitimate CDs - I buy them second hand. The market is swimming in them. The reason they arent selling so well....because we already bought all we want.

If I was interested in ripping off tracks then as has also been said, I dont need the internet to do it. Theres radio and TV coming into the house all the time. Any industry based on preventing people recording this for themselves is doomed. If the internet did not exist at all record sales would still have fallen.

The music industry model is a fast failing one. That original very expensive CD was mainly pure profit and this cannot continue. The logic of a world where everyone has the technology to make and transfer their own music is that no one needs CDS or shops selling them. The public will only accept the justice of paying for something if it is useful to them. We are fast moving into the position where the majority of the public does not accept the principle that music companies should be legally entitled to demand payment as they are doing.

The music industry has an impossible problem because of these technological changes. no one will ever buy music unless they have heard it first. Obviously. But if they have the technology to hear it, then they have the technology to record it. So all you can charge is a very small sum which consumers themselves are willing to give. A decently run website which has all the music you need available at a modest charge probably can succeed, but that is all the market will bear.
 

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the only way i could see how piracy helps music sales is the argument that the people who are bootlegging the music will then have money left over to spend on seeing the artist in concert

people my age have been bootlegging music since we were in junior high, we will only be better at it

and with the growing popularity of websites like youtube to mp3, datpiff and livemixtapes, the thought of actually spending a penny on music is laughable

i would much rather take an hour out of my day and bootleg an entire artist's music library and spend $50 to see them live when i am shitfaced with other shitfaced individuals
 

blazblue

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the only way i could see how piracy helps music sales is the argument that the people who are bootlegging the music will then have money left over to spend on seeing the artist in concert

people my age have been bootlegging music since we were in junior high, we will only be better at it

and with the growing popularity of websites like youtube to mp3, datpiff and livemixtapes, the thought of actually spending a penny on music is laughable

i would much rather take an hour out of my day and bootleg an entire artist's music library and spend $50 to see them live when i am shitfaced with other shitfaced individuals

Once again this has been my point. The problem with saying "piracy helps music sales" is that we have no idea how many are pirating music and then buying the music and/or seeing them in concert in the first place. Yes it is logically sound but logic and reality are not mutually exclusive. Just because something should happen doesn't mean it actually is happening.

In the end, the only surefire way for the music industry to increase sales is by increasing the quality of music. No one's gonna buy it period if the music's complete crap.
 

Incocknito

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The fact is that everything is going online anyway. People are buying either in digital form or ordering physical merchandise online. Which makes actual 'stores' or shops redundant. The most recent case I am aware of is the 'GAME' 'video game' stores. They have mostly shut due to online stores although part of it was due to their attempted expansion into international markets.

The bottom line is that people who don't care about quality or want a sneak peek will pirate/torrent whatever they want. But if (consequently or subsequently) they want quality eg retail packaging/leaflets/online functionality (for games) etc they will buy the actual product.

Basically the 'companies' are scared and too stupid to realise that everything is going online. They should be encouraging online 'exposure' either paid for like with iTunes or even the free stuff like torrents.

You would think million or billion dollar companies would have better advisors. I mean the latest nonsense is Virgin Media and other ISP's in the UK have 'blocked' Piratebay.

Unfortunately (for them) they haven't blocked me from typing in 'piratebay mirrors' into Google and clicking the first or second link.

Or going onto one of the many other sites that offer the same stuff. I only like piratebay because there are more comments on there.
 

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The fact is that everything is going online anyway. People are buying either in digital form or ordering physical merchandise online. Which makes actual 'stores' or shops redundant. The most recent case I am aware of is the 'GAME' 'video game' stores. They have mostly shut due to online stores although part of it was due to their attempted expansion into international markets.

The bottom line is that people who don't care about quality or want a sneak peek will pirate/torrent whatever they want. But if (consequently or subsequently) they want quality eg retail packaging/leaflets/online functionality (for games) etc they will buy the actual product.

Basically the 'companies' are scared and too stupid to realise that everything is going online. They should be encouraging online 'exposure' either paid for like with iTunes or even the free stuff like torrents.

You would think million or billion dollar companies would have better advisors. I mean the latest nonsense is Virgin Media and other ISP's in the UK have 'blocked' Piratebay.

Unfortunately (for them) they haven't blocked me from typing in 'piratebay mirrors' into Google and clicking the first or second link.

Or going onto one of the many other sites that offer the same stuff. I only like piratebay because there are more comments on there.

If they were really afraid of everything being online then I don't think download portals like iTunes would've existed in the first place :lmao: And tbh, I don't think cds will ever go away anyway since it's a reliable form of back up. But back to everything being online, I don't think it will make a difference if it all is since place like iTunes will still be able to jack up prices whenever they want while the quality still stays the same. It doesn't matter if it's cd or digital, or if people download it or not, if the music's crap, people aren't going to buy it which doesn't matter to these companies anyway since they're still making money regardless.