Pissed off Roman Catholics

[dong20]

...An aside: I've had perfectly intelligent-seeming heterosexual men say those precise passages make it "cool with God" for women to "lie" with women. They fail to realize the term 'men' is the old-school use of the collective and say: "hey God says nothing about women laying with women. So God's okay with it".

I was a bit hesitant to cite Leviticus but on balance I'd say it does illustrate how a text can be 'interperated' to mean pretty much whatever is needed, all that's needed is a context that requires it. The rest is Human nature...

Indeed Leviticus actually doesn't mention women (if one takes it literally) in that same way. So more fuel to the "lesbian chic" phenomenon. How well the Bible works for heterosexual men. I wonder if it's a coincidence?

Cynic..:biggrin1:

 

[B_Stronzo]

Cynic..:biggrin1:

Unquestionably so.

But may I say with all due respect this discussion with heterosexual men like you and JustAsking has given me the ability to drop my defense mechanisms for the first time in a very long time. I'm encouraged and it's been enlightening.

For some time I've been thinking "my sort" ought to move to a neighboring planet and set up housekeeping. (and NO! Not Uranus) :biggrin1:

 

[dong20]

Unquestionably so.

But may I say with all due respect this discussion with heterosexual men like you and JustAsking has given me the ability to drop my defense mechanisms for the first time in a very long time. I'm encouraged and it's been enlightening.

That's good, thanks....just don't remember where you left them....you may need them again soon enough, According to solongs' latest rantings (Da Vinci) I'm Beelizibubs messenger so anything could happen...People of Earth you have been warned...

 

[Lex]

In the end, it is a book that men wrote.

Act accordingly.

Boy Lex. There are those that'll argue that point to their graves.

I happen to agree with you. But in their eyes I'm a sinning heretic anyway so I have nothing to lose.

When someone can prove to me that God put pen on paper, then I will reconsider.

And NO, saying "God spoke to me does not count."

Why don't any of THOSE people ever end up in the psychiatric ward? hmmm...

But may I say with all due respect this discussion with heterosexual men like you and JustAsking has given me the ability to drop my defense mechanisms for the first time in a very long time. I'm encouraged and it's been enlightening.

See, Stronzo does grow and challenge himself. AND he admits as much. I hope people are paying attention.

For some time I've been thinking "my sort" ought to move to a neighboring planet and set up housekeeping. (and NO! Not Uranus) :biggrin1:

And what will all the straight men do without us to pick on and simlutaneously emmulate? Who will teach them how to dress and groom?

What will all the straight women do without our true and free insight into the male psyche?

A planet with ALL FAGS? I might DIE from the sheer DRAMA. Will there be Home(o) Depot there? No? I'll pass. Homogeniety is Boring.

 

[dong20]

When someone can prove to me that God put pen on paper, then I will reconsider.

I agree but it's never going to happen :

Quote from Hitchikers:

"I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.

I never saw a Babel fish but the premise is interesting...Proof of the existence of God (e.g. Bible) is to deny him existence. Hence God had nothing to do with the Bible.

And NO, saying "God spoke to me does not count."

See above...

Why don't any of THOSE people ever end up in the psychiatric ward? hmmm...

Many do, though mostly those who couldn't afford decent legal representation..

Essentially, as Humans we are entirely responsible for, and therefore must clean up our own shit.

 

[Lex]

I fully understand the concept of faith (I was raised Baptist). I was mostly being facetious and sarcastic.

And I hope people can see the logical absurdity of it all. The point being, if all anyone has to say to qualify a statement (or passage) is that "The Lord spoke to them" and people will buy it, the power of that statement (read: the blind stupidity/lack of ciritcal self-thought inherent or absent in people) frightens me.

I doubted the purity of organized religion and grew tired of and disenfranschised with organized religion long before I realized I was a queer male. Being queer just gives me another lense thorugh which to realize and feel the church's bigotry.

As Socrates said, "It is more logical to believe than to disbelieve" and I find that man fails WAY to often for me to follow him (or her). My faith is a personal thing and I don't need a preacher or a Pope to tell me how to live.

 

[rob_just_rob]

On Leviticus:

Leviticus also prohibits the eating of sea life that doesn't have fins or scales. And yet, you don't often see the fundies picketing Red Lobster. Well, not for that reason, anyway. :wink:

Yet another reason to distrust bible-made rules: Aside from the bible being written in a different context than the modern one, and being extremely susceptible to interpretation (it is, after all, full of parables) - religious folks seem to do a lot of picking and choosing as to which rules in the bible are optional, and which ones will get you sent to hell.

Alternatively - christians and the fish-packing industry have better lobbyists than gay people, single mothers, and the unemployed. (Don't even get me started on the alcohol and tobacco lobbyists vs the marijuana lobbyist...)

 

[dong20]

Rob, I agree...

Most of the commandments I go along with, the principle of forgiveness I (try) to go along with, the principle that all 'men' are created equal I go along with, the basic tenets of decent behavour towards our fellows common to many religions I go along with.

Much of the rest....it's a crock and a major cause of the cess pit of social and racial divisions our societies are riddled with to this day. I make no distinctions between religions here; to me they all represent degrees and flavours of the same hypocrisy when they are (mis) used in the way they too often are; as a whipping stick against those we don't like or are 'different' to us.

For most of recorded history religion has been used as an excuse for people behaving very very badly towards each other, destroying familes, countries and innocent peoples lives sometimes with but as often without discrimination.

While I think some progress is being made I don't see religion inspired stupidity changing any time soon. If that condemns me..so be it, on this my concience is clear.

 

[D_Herin_Ghan]

Oh, have a big *hug* ... I'm on anti-sinus medication, which makes me a moodier bitch than usual.

Off topic in reference to this quote, but by any chance are you headed to the world cup? Being that it's taking place in your current country of origin.



GO USA!

 

[B_Stronzo]

The only interest I have in the "world cup" is sniffing it.

 

[Lex]

The only interest I have in the "world cup" is sniffing it.

FUCKING A!!

 

[D_alex8]

Off topic in reference to this quote, but by any chance are you headed to the world cup? Being that it's taking place in your current country of origin.

Nope, it'll be happening all around me (well, not really, since I'm tucked away in the deep southwest Germany ).. but a greater connection than that to it I can't claim. Although if you need any "Deutschland"-emblazoned scarves, lollipops, pencil sharpeners, shampoo bottles, etc., then the shops are filled to overflowing with World Cup-related merchandize of questionable quality.

 

[faceking]

<<-- Luca Toni


Ahhhhhhhhhh yes... World Cup... love it. The Super Bowl of the World.

Tired of hearing the American vs soccer sports arguments... enjoy the sport, especially, when on the world stage, we're subject to NON-sports like figure skating, lawn darts, and golf... that so many Americans aspire too.

Once again, Gli Azzurri will dissappoint. Brasilia, Germany (sorry home country advantage is huge) look to do it... but we may get a surprise story this year from seminal decient squads (England, Holland, etc...) or up'comers like Croatia. However, they will have the hottest wives/g'friends in the stands. Which in the end... may be all that real,

Off topic in reference to this quote, but by any chance are you headed to the world cup? Being that it's taking place in your current country of origin.



GO USA!

 

[Freddie53]

I know what you mean but I take Jesus in a less Christian sense than you and like all ancient prophets I think Jesus is about peace. I think you and I only differ in that you see the world as a pretty clear battle of good versus evil.

I still have difficulty believing every nuance of everything I see in such cut and dry terms.

First thanks for your kind words and agreement with much of what I wrote. We aren't that far apart. I really don't see things in just black and white. Jesus is about peace. No mistake about it. I see it not so much a battle, but a choice. We can choose to prefer good over evil. or we can choose to prefer evil over good. For some people htat might be a battle. To me love is an easy choice over hate. It is not a battle for me.

As for as the world goes. I believe that good will triumph over evil in the end. That may be looked in terms of a battle. Instead I look at is a a very positive thing. I am an eternal optimist, I really believe that in God's time there will be nothing but perfection for me. No battes, just eternal bliss and rest.

About Lex's comment on the origin of the Bible. One would have to completely ignore history, writing styles and the fact that there are some discrepencies in at least translations if not the original text and meanings. There is no one qualified to show us the original text of every word and what those words meant at the time and how to interpret them now for our society.

I believe that God's hand was in the creation of the Bible. I believe those writers were under the influence of God as they wrote what they did. But there are mistakes recorded. Statistics that don't jive from one page to the next.

To confuse the Bible with God the Almighty is very tragic and wrong. While I believe that God does speak thorugh the Bible. The Bible is NOT GOD.

The Bible is very sacred. It has stood the test of time. But to suggest that God took someone's hand and that person started writing without knowing what they were writing totally under the influence of God just doesn't stand up under close scrutiny.

If we could interpret it correctly, perhaps it would be perfect. But who determines which person interprets it correctly? Majority vote? The Pope? The Us Government? Some TV preacher?

It comes down to each invididual person who has read the Bible and what that person ultimately decides for him or herself. No one can really answer for anyone else.

 

[JustAsking]

That's why I feel those churches you and I speak of which are 'accepting' (though infinitely preferable to other vile ones) still ring of a condescension of resigned tolerance in that "forgive them they know not what they do" sort of way.

Either way you slice it, it's fucked.

That's really why I find spiritual renewal so much more easily in random earthly places. It's so much less cluttered with human rhetoric.

Stronzo,
I understand your position. But it is only valid for those denominations that have a narrow definition of sin. In those cases you are right. For them, sin is something that tempts people occasionally, to which they may or may not give in to. This is a very immature notion and not held by most of the "accepting" denominations.

A more mature understanding of sin is that we are all steeped in it to a degree that singling out homosexuals as bigger sinners is preposterous. So "accepting" them into a church is a recognition that we are all part of the human condition, flawed as it may be.

A broader view of sin recognizes that, for example, I personally did nothing today to help the misery and suffering in the Sudan and the Darfur. Approximately 1000 children died there today of preventable disease and hunger. You probably did nothing for them today as well. If you and I were part of a church congregation that really understood Grace, we would both agree that to exclude a gay person from our congregation as if he were a bigger sinner than us would be preposterous. So from the vantage point of knowing that we are all rat-bastards when it comes down to it, to say we are accepting of homosexuals in our church is not condescending.