Pissing off the "Right"

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by B_Stronzo, Aug 12, 2006.

  1. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Plimoth Plantation
    For those of you who don't know it there's an organization afoot here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts which calls itself "Know Thy Neighbor" and was brought into action to out those who signed the petition to repeal the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruling to allow same sex marriage and to get it put up to public vote. Many did not want it known they'd had their names published nationally.

    The necessary signatures were gathered fairly quickly of course. But the fly
    in their ointment is that KTN.org published all their names:

    I will tell you that finding several friends (?) and cousins on this list was sobering indeed:

    Have a look-see
     
  2. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    I bet your friends and cousins are the type of people who face-to-face with you tried to come off as we-don't-mind-you're-gay liberals but behind your back were denigrating your sexual preference. I'd rather spend time with an ardent homophobic bigot who speaks what he thinks than endure that kind of duplicity.

    As for that organization, the meanspiritedenss of the holier-than-thous is exceeded only by their willingness to trample on individuals' right to privacy in the name of their mission to preserve what they perceive to be American and pure.:fing26:
     
  3. DC_DEEP

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    12
    I have indeed heard of KTN. Have you asked any of these people, whose names you recognized, why they would sign such a petition? I certainly would ask, point blank, and perhaps not even very civilly.

    Anyone who would claim (to your face) to be your friend, and then stab you in the back by supporting such legislation, does bear a burden of explanation. Same with relatives.
     
  4. DC_DEEP

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    12
    I'm not sure what you're saying here, John, but I think you misunderstood the purpose of KTN. KTN were the good guys here. Petitions of this type are public information, but those who wanted to pass anti-gay legislation wanted their names kept secret. KTN ensured that the names on the petitions were published, hence the name. Does your neighbor claim to be your friend? Know thy neighbor, and see if he wants legislation to discriminate against you.
     
  5. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Plimoth Plantation
    Yes DC. I've abandoned three friendships over it. One was a quasi family member who is married to my ex-wife's brother with whom I was still very friendly. The other two were total shocks and I simply sent them emails saying I'd seen their names on the link and sent the url.

    Not ONE OF THEM has had the courage to call me (or write me) and explain.

    Amen. It's something I've lost a good deal of sleep over too. But in good conscience I cannot maintain a connection with those who think me (and my other half) somehow lesser simply because we both have cocks.

    It was precisely as you describe it I suspect John.
     
  6. ManiacalMadMan

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,107
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    But aren't you one of those people who is always asking that the privacy of all people needs to be better protected? Clearly K.T.N. does not meet that request which makes them not the good guys but somewhat the bad guys. Yes, it might be nice to know what all of our neighbors, friends and family really think and yet it can never be that way (or at least it shouldn't). Besides if you know everything about these people, do you then want them knowing every little detail about you?

    Although the Know thy Neighbor people are pretending to do something good, they are in actuality violating privacy which goes against the standard thinkings of the persons who support gay marriages and personal freedoms.
    And to think, people say the Right is filled with hypocrites.
     
  7. rob_just_rob

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,037
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Nowhere near you
    Any document submitted to a public body like a parliament or legislature should be public, unless there is some overriding reason for it not to be. Petitions are public records.
     
  8. rob_just_rob

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,037
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Nowhere near you
    From the site Stronzo linked to:

    Seems pretty public to me.
     
  9. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    DC, IMO holier-than-thou's are not the sole domain of the Far Right. To invade anyone's privacy is wrong no matter what the justification. While it's good that Stronzo discovered the falsity of those people, I can't defend that sort of outing. A friend of mine has lost his career as a result of so-called public outing of government undercover operatives by a group that thought it was doing Americans a favor by exposing these "instruments of evil imperialism." His job, BTW, was to infiltrate the drug cartels. Free access to information, yes; encroaching on citizens' privacy, no. The people who signed the petition weren't sex offenders or potential terrorists. I am a staunch advocate of gay rights and do not tolerate homophobia in my presence, but I respect the right of American homophobes to live with a reasonable expectation of privacy. Let's say that Stronzo did not want his sexual or political preferences revealed. It would be equally reprehensible to publish his donations to gay rights causes or the ACLU or whatever he chooses to donate to. Too much poking of noses into others' business these days. It may seem inconsistent of me to criticize a group that was trying to help those whom I also defend, but I can't condemn snooping (phonetapping, etc.) even when it may benefit someone I like.

    I think this is the first issue about which I have ever disgreed with you, DC. This is a sore spot with me...have seen and heard too much maybe. John
     
  10. rob_just_rob

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,037
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Nowhere near you
    COLJohn, read the disclaimer on the site. The petition is in the public record. Anyone who signs it knows (or ought to know) that the fact that they signed it is also in the public record.
     
  11. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, it's public in the sense that it was available to anyone looking for it. I sign petitions fully aware that someone with an agenda could publish them; I am against that sort of exploitation. The motive of the group to expose those who are against gay marriages doesn't justify its actions. If Stronzo wanted to see who signed the petition, he should be able to have access to it. That's a far cry, however, from publicizing it for all to see in an attempt to stain them. That's about equal to gay bashing, and it's inflammatory. Just because the law allows or disallows something doesn't make it morally right.
     
  12. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand that, r_just_r. There are disclaimers on any number of things. The dual purposes of a disclaimer are to cover their asses and open the door to any action they choose to take.
     
  13. rob_just_rob

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,037
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    Nowhere near you
    So, let me see if I understand your position here.

    You feel that individuals should be able to sign a petition to rescind other individuals' rights, but they should be able to do so anonymously? :confused:

    Petitions with anonymous names on them aren't worth the paper they're photocopied on, in a legal or legislative sense.

    I suppose you might mean that the people who signed expected that their names are only public in the sense that they're available for viewing in the legislative offices. This may in fact have been their expectation. However, virtually all legislative documents are now available online, if you know where to look. So really, all KTN has done is put the names into a place where they are more easily accessible. I'd hardly equate that to gay-bashing.

    Finally... what happened to being responsible for your opinions? If you aren't willing to defend your opinion, don't put your name to it.
     
  14. DC_DEEP

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    12
    maniacalmadman, and COLJohn, your vote on a referendum is private. Your signature on a petition for referendum is public. I don't understand why you find this aspect of the process so abhorrant. Not having these documents available as public information would invite way too much abuse. It's not a perfect system, but it is the best we have at this time.

    John, your comparison of encouraging inspection of these documents to gay bashing blow my mind. What's the big difference? The big difference is that the people who signed the petition were attempting to restrict the civil rights of other citizens. Although I take a very dim view of organized religion, I would feel the same way if it were a group of atheists trying to get all religion banned, either on a state or federal level. I would hope that KTN would also publish names and addresses of petitioners in such a case.

    It's a funny thing, gentlemen, as I sat here trying to think of how I wanted to compose this response, I wondered about all the petitions I've been asked to sign over the years. I would guess that in probably 9 out of 10, it was a petition to restrict the civil rights of some group or another. It seems that, more often than not, petitions are perceived by zealots as their best weapon.
     
  15. DC_DEEP

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    12
    And while we are at it, is that not the whole purpose of the petition? To publicly declare that you support whatever is being proposed? Otherwise, what purpose do they serve? Thanks, Beaker... uh, I mean robjustrob.
     
  16. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Plimoth Plantation
    John,

    Here's how I feel about it.

    If they sign it they ought to have read it thoroughly first and known it was going to be a matter of public record. It was right there for them to read. I saw a copy of the petition too. What rights of theirs are being violated? Their right to ignorance only I'd warrant. They simply want to deny more of the rights they already take for granted to us foolish superfluous fags.

    KnowThyNeighbor is an activist site and it and other mindful organizations like it will, I dare say, end this shit once and for all.

    Beyond that why wouldn't these ardent detractors have the courage of their conviction if indeed they can substantiate them? I say (much as Zora has suggested about pms here) that if you're gonna write it? Own it.

    But beyond all that it illustrates the cowardice of those who signed and have taken issue with the thing being published. As DC said. I'd rather they walked right up to me and said "hey Stronzo. You know I like you and what's-his-name that guy you fuck. But let's get real. My marriage is seen as legitimate in the eyes of God. You're second rate. Surely you know that, don't you?"

    Then I could just punch their lights out. Done.

    But most telling of all is the fact that the 4 people (signers of that petition) to whom I've sent that link who were purported friends of mine not a single one of them has written me to explain how they could think of me in such a marginalized way. Where's the courage in that? Where's the fairness in that? These fuckers want to kick me to the curb and then make nice as they say "oh aren't you two adorable together".:rolleyes:

    The fuck they will.

    I've been accused, during my hiatus from this site, as having an "agenda" by several. It's right there in that "Stronzo's been banned" thread. It's true too. I do have one. So does my ex-brother-in-law's wife who signed that nasty prohibitive petition. But unlike her I'm willing to stand behind my thoughts and actions and support them with reason and fairness on my best days.

    Friends and colleagues? Let's face it head-on: We all have an agenda. It's just how able we are to legitimize that agenda that's really in play here.

    Lex?

    I just walked off the beach..........:redface:

    I think Matthew Shepherd would probably disagree with that statement as would those who took a hatchet to the face last February at "Puzzles" the gay bar near metropolitan Boston.
     
  17. DC_DEEP

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    12
    Well, Stronzo, that's not even mentioning that there is a nominative, functional, difference between a petition and a ballot. The ballot is defined as, and understood to be, secret. It would be unethical and immoral for a precinct to publish a vote tally with names.

    A petition, on the other hand, is defined as a public document, designed to "get a feel" for support of legislation; basically, to decide whether or not it should appear on the ballot. The people have a right to know who is pushing to have the proposed law put on the ballot.

    If the petition were also secret, what point would there be in even having the ballot vote, instead of just using the petition and calling it the vote?
     
  18. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Plimoth Plantation
    To quote my pal Daverock DC?

    "spot on"
     
  19. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  20. B_Stronzo

    B_Stronzo New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,730
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Plimoth Plantation
    John.

    The 'other side feeling cornered'?? 'Gone underground'? This to me is just it. They already are "underground". And until they're exposed to the light of day they'll remain there lying and making nice-nice.

    I hope the bastards feel good and cornered. Yes... I'm just that vindictive. They can try on my shoes for a while and see how it looks from the outside looking in for ten minutes of their lives.

    Now who's "whining". They are. Hope they don't "flip flop" next. :rolleyes:

    I sense that the only real way for others to truly "walk in my shoes" as the saying goes is to actually feel the feelings of disenfranchisement. I know that e-mail to my ex sister-in-law had impact. She's "all worried that 'Stronzo' is mad at me" HUH?:eek:

    I tell you my friend, sometimes I think reason and justice is only for the reasonable and just.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted