"Playing The Race Card"

Shelby · May 2, 2006

Lex, my post wasn't directed at you. Your example epitomizes my feelings about how to best get rid of racism and homophobia.

Lex · May 2, 2006

Got it.

And you have to admit that no king ever willingly gives up the throne.

These are all power issues in my estimation, Shelby.

Race, gender, orientation are but the smokescreen surface.

B_Stronzo · May 2, 2006

We all strive for those things Shelby. And much as I go on about the politics surrounding those three groups you mention I don't feel inferior. Truth be told (dare I say?) I often feel superior to some of my heterosexual brothers and sisters. But that superiority isn't based in genetics. It's based in the experience I've garnered living from the outside looking in. You cannot be expected to know that experience since you haven't lived it so I understand why you have the take you do.

It's in that light that I push the quest for legislation to give my particular group (gay ppl) the same rights enjoyed by you as a heterosexual male. It's truly just that simple. I don't want to be compensated for years of persecution or ridicule. I want to get on with my life as a gay man just as I suspect you do as a straight one. The concept is so glaringly simple it defies the obvious.

So when I bitch out gay rights per se I'm speaking entirely from a political standpoint. The nuances I mention in my thread about tokenism are subtleties which I direct (as outlined in my thread opening post) toward those others who are gay.

**hijack over Lex.:wink:

Matthew · May 2, 2006

Shelby said:
As long as blacks, gays & women hold on to the belief that they are oppressed instead of striving for individual excellence they relegate themselves to inferior status.

Sure there's still racism and xenophobia out there. But the best way to eradicate it is to make it look stupid.

Have you noticed how relatively well some non-white and/or non-males assimilate? Why is that?

Go ahead and bust on me for not being able to understand from my position of privilege (bs) as a straight white male. Insensitve or not, that's the way I see it.

Oppression exists in concrete ways in the world, not just in people's inferiority complexes. I can see where it would be appealing to think otherwise, because that gives the observer a way to blame people for their own oppression and relieve himself of any need to think about how he may be complicit. And yes, I do believe that it's easier to deny or overlook oppression when you don't face it.

The idea that oppressed groups can wish themselves free is pure fantasy. If all it took was belief that we were equal, most of us would be already.

None of us is in one "group." We all have a race, a gender, a sexual orientation and a whole bunch other factors that make each of us. So for example, while I might face social challenges because of my sexual orientation, I might also enjoy some privileges based on my race or gender, etc. etc. In other words, oppressed people might also be privileged in the same society, depending on how you look.

Because of this, it certainly is possible for some number of people from an oppressed group to "assimilate". But in the end, that only helps those individuals. It does little or nothing to address the social institutions that consititute the oppression in the first place. And speaking for myself, I don't want to "assimilate." I want to be myself and still enjoy the same rights as everyone else.

Is that too much to ask?

Shelby · May 2, 2006

I have a 2.7 meg .pdf essay that I want to post here or send but can't find a way to do it. If you Lex, Stronzo, Matthew (or anyone else for that matter) could create a free throwaway email account (yahoo, hotmail, etc.) and post it here I would love to hear your opinions.

Lex · May 2, 2006

Can you give us more context?

Can you host it somewhere and link to it?

Try to email it to me and I can also see if I can host it somewhere.

B_Stronzo · May 2, 2006

I'd like to read it too Shelby.

You and I agree on much. But I think you express a certain "blaséness" to something you couldn't possibly have experienced unless you'd lived it personally. We're not crying in our soup here any of us. I see Lex and Matthew as decidedly strong men irrespective of color or orientation.

We (we gay men and men of color) are using this forum to explore the differences and similarities in our experiences. Lex once said that in this exposure (paraphrase) much can be gleaned and applied. I agree with that critique. I realize you think we "go on too much" about the minority issue... but it's not our general modus.

I can tell you that LPSG is unique in its ability to engender good debate among many diverse peoples. All other boards with which I've been associated have outed themselves (moderator based outings too) to be intolerant of anything but heterosexual rhetoric. That's why I value my membership here to the degree I do. This board's unique in that way and in my experience.

In my real day-to-day existence I don't wear my minority on my sleeve any more than you wear your majority. We'd simply ask you allow us this forum to have a "bitch session" or two or to fine tune some of our opinions.

If you send me the essay to my hotmail account perhaps I can link it to my 'photobucket'. I'm not sure but I'm willing to give it a try. I'm no wizard on this thing and if anyone knows if that's a possibility let me know.

Shelby · May 2, 2006

It's an Article written by Shelby Steele that was published by Harper's magazine in 1992 titled "The New Sovereignty". It was later republished in his book "The Content of our Character: A New Vision of Race in America". If you read much Steele the article is not that different. However, I think it stands remarkably well after all these years.

I've tried uploading it to a variety of file hosting sites with no luck. May be a firewall issue. If anyone knows of a good one post me a link.

Lex · May 2, 2006

What is the title of the article? I will see if I can access it via my University library access.

Shelby · May 2, 2006

Lex said:
What is the title of the article? I will see if I can access it via my University library access.

"The New Sovereignty" by Shelby Steele.

I think you may have better luck looking for his book "The Content of Our Character: A New Vision of Race Relations in America" of which "The New Sovereignty" is a subchapter.

AMikkell · May 2, 2006

I have been on both sides of the issue. I am a straight white male, raised christian, so it would seem that I am the majority. I was also raised on a rezervation. I have dealt with intolerance from white people and from natives because of this. To me, racism is not about some desire to maintain power. It is generally about hatred or apathy. I know racism is not imagined, and it doesn't go away. I agree with Lex that I don't want to be reminded that I'm somehow different. I have known people who treated me fine up untill they find out that I lived on a rezervation, then they go off on a rant about how natives have it easy, expecting me to share their oppinion, then they treat me with less respect after I disagree with them. I agree that it is tough to be marginalized because of your race, but I don't think that blaming your race, or, more specifically, the problems caused by others inacceptance, helps anything.

As for 'talking white' and 'acting white', that is bs. I try to be articulate when I talk, and I am considered educated and intelligent, but this doesn't help me, even among other white people. Most people feel I'm talking down to them. Trying to show off. Trying to make myself seem superior. This isn't so, this is simply the way I talk. The rest of my family doesn't talk like me, and they are white and educated.

Shelby · May 2, 2006

No effin way! Shelby Steele is on the Michael Medved radio show right now. AM 770 in the Seattle/Tacoma market.

Lex · May 2, 2006

I tried to find the article to no avail. when I did get what appeared to be the article--the size of the PDF froze my machine.

Shelby--if you have Abode Acrobat or Distiller, you may be able to shrink the file sixe or quality fo the PDF which would make it more manageable for email, posting, etc.

dong20 · May 2, 2006

Shelby said:
"The New Sovereignty" by Shelby Steele.

I think you may have better luck looking for his book "The Content of Our Character: A New Vision of Race Relations in America" of which "The New Sovereignty" is a subchapter.

If it's of any use the ISBN is 006097415X :smile:

Shelby · May 2, 2006

All I have is adobe reader.

Steele apparently has a new book called "White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Righrs Era."

I plan to get it.

b.c. · May 2, 2006

Matthew said:
Oppression exists in concrete ways in the world, not just in people's inferiority complexes. I can see where it would be appealing to think otherwise, because that gives the observer a way to blame people for their own oppression and relieve himself of any need to think about how he may be complicit. And yes, I do believe that it's easier to deny or overlook oppression when you don't face it.

The idea that oppressed groups can wish themselves free is pure fantasy. If all it took was belief that we were equal, most of us would be already.

None of us is in one "group." We all have a race, a gender, a sexual orientation and a whole bunch other factors that make each of us. So for example, while I might face social challenges because of my sexual orientation, I might also enjoy some privileges based on my race or gender, etc. etc. In other words, oppressed people might also be privileged in the same society, depending on how you look.

Because of this, it certainly is possible for some number of people from an oppressed group to "assimilate". But in the end, that only helps those individuals. It does little or nothing to address the social institutions that consititute the oppression in the first place. And speaking for myself, I don't want to "assimilate." I want to be myself and still enjoy the same rights as everyone else.

Is that too much to ask?

Excellent response, Matthew. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Gisella · May 2, 2006

Shelby said:
All I have is adobe reader.

Steele apparently has a new book called "White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Righrs Era."

I plan to get it.

Almost sure on bookstores on May...:wink:

ops this month...

Shelby · May 3, 2006

Lex · May 4, 2006

Shelby said:
Lex, my post wasn't directed at you. Your example epitomizes my feelings about how to best get rid of racism and homophobia.

And here is my problem with that belief:

Why do I have to be 20 times better than you in order to be seen as your equal?

Irvy · May 4, 2006

I really hope that, one day, society in general will realise that no 2 of us are the same, and that there is no such thing as a majority, and therefore, there can be no minorities. One day, we'll realise that it's our differences that make us equal. One day, we'll look at ourselves and see how much we have in common with each other, and people will stop treating people differently just because of 1 characteristic.

"Playing The Race Card"

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