"Playing The Race Card"

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Agreed. It seems the only way that'll happen is if we'll have 'yet another' enemy that we can share a united cause against.

Might be time to release those Area 51 UFOs.

 

[Shelby]

And here is my problem with that belief:

Why do I have to be 20 times better than you in order to be seen as your equal?

First off, you're not better than me.

All I'm trying to say is the focus on oppression feeds on itself.

 

[Lex]

My point is that a minority has to work 10X as hard for his or her work to look as if it equals or outperforms someone else's.

And that is wrong.

You totally seem to be missing that point.

 

[Shelby]

We 're totally missing each other.

My point is that the commonly accepted belief that a minority has to work harder or be better to appear equal is doing the minority more harm than actual racism. It relegates them to victim status. It stifles their will to achieve in what they perceive to be an unfair game.
​

 

[Lex]

And I would hold that racism and racial stereotyping is what makes people believe this (this being that minorites are lazy, less intelligent, etc.).

Are you impling that this belief that minorities have to work hard was somehow creating BY minorities?

 

[Shelby]

No. And I agree with your previous post that where it exists it is wrong.

However, while the minorities of course didn't create the stereotypes, in many instances they hold steadfast to the belief that 'the man' continues to hold them dear. By so doing they are able to play on 'the man's' guilt and lobby for collective entitlements. Jesse Jackson and Gloria Steinem have created industries out of this.

In summary in this day and age perception of racism may be doing more harm than actual racism.

 

[Lex]

A few points:

There is no reality--there is only perception.

I too, believe in "stereotype threat."

 

[B_Stronzo]

Jesse Jackson and Gloria Steinem have created industries out of this.

If nothing else the two aforementioned serve to counteract individuals like George W. Bush and Pat Roberston.

Seems fair enough.

 

[b.c.]

No. And I agree with your previous post that where it exists it is wrong.

However, while the minorities of course didn't create the stereotypes, in many instances they hold steadfast to the belief that 'the man' continues to hold them dear. By so doing they are able to play on 'the man's' guilt and lobby for collective entitlements. Jesse Jackson and Gloria Steinem have created industries out of this.

In summary in this day and age perception of racism may be doing more harm than actual racism.

First of all, you are NOT the man...far from it. And in the second place, your argument is tantamount (i'd better check my spelling carefully here since I seem to have lost the ability to edit my posts) to that old "race card" bullshit that people like to throw out there to shift the blame from racists to those who are victims of racism.

No one is trying to "play on" anyone's guilt or lobby for any more "entitlement" than what would be due anyone else. You seem to suggest that Jackson has created an industry out of that which does not exist. If calling out racism is indeed an "industry" as you suggest, then the fact that business is "brisk" is through no fault of the activist.

Rather, it is perhaps because so many such as yourself choose to continue to deny that which exists, hence your conclusion that the real culprit is not racism itself, but the mere "perception" of it. (??) Give me a f**king break!

(Original version, unedited for your little sensibilities).

 

[madame_zora]

No. And I agree with your previous post that where it exists it is wrong.

Here's the first problem- "where it exists". If YOU are not prejudiced yourself, you will NEVER know where it exists! You will never see how life as a black person really is, so you can only postulate, never really know.

However, while the minorities of course didn't create the stereotypes, in many instances they hold steadfast to the belief that 'the man' continues to hold them dear. By so doing they are able to play on 'the man's' guilt and lobby for collective entitlements. Jesse Jackson and Gloria Steinem have created industries out of this.

Shelby, this is beneath you. Are you really saying that these industries were not created in reaction to horrible situations? If you ARE saying that, then you ARE part of the problem. Most white people really don't feel guilt about the oppression of minorities, so "White man's guilt" is just so much nonsense thrown out to cast aside arguments against unequal treatment. It's a vapid and empty phrase without meaning or logic.

Look at how much some Christians have gotten up in arms about the fact that some people are finally coming out saying that Christians are not right about everything and shouldn't have carte blanche to run the world. You'd think we called their mothers whores and threatened to rape their daughters- just for saying we don't want to be controlled by them! How does it feel to be marginalised? They will never know. Wait until they can't get a job because they are Christian, and no one wants them to buy the house next door, THEN they'll have something to talk about. As it is now, some nerd says something on the interweb and they think that's prejudice! Haha, that's about as stupid as anything I can imagine. As we've said many times, minorities don't have the power to oppress, and until they do, the majorities will never understand that the groups to which they belong abuse this power. Especially if they personally do not participate in such behavior.

In summary in this day and age perception of racism may be doing more harm than actual racism.

Hmm, except that the KKK ran me out of West Virginia in 1999, was that current enough for you? Or was it my perceptions that led me to believe there were six big men in robes and masks carrying torches in my front yard chanting "Nigger go home"? ACTUAL racism needs to be addressed, then the perceptions of said can match realtiy. As long as ACTUAL racism is denied, we can make no progress, but thanks for playing.

As long as redlining exists (which it does, as any real estate agent who like you enough to tell the truth), as long as there are some employers who put "special marks" on the applications of minorities (this is almost too rampant to believe, I had to argue against this at times on the work force where I was being asked to do it. Funny how some people think I'm "just white enough")
and as long as only special negroes who can reach absurdly high standards can be accepted in a place where any illiterate white person can be accepted, there can be no equality, and no peace. You wouldn't do it either if the roles were reversed.

Try it. Paint your skin black one day and walk around. See how much it changes things to have shop owners follow you around expecting you to steal. Have white people talk down to you as if you were mentally challenged. Go apply for a job, and after you squirm in your seat wondering if Big Man A is even listening to you, he responds with "Well, we could really use a few more blacks around here I guess". It makes you feel like shit, and it never goes away. THEN have some white guy on a message board tell you it's all in your head. That's fucking shit, and I'm sorry you don't know it.

 

[dong20]

Here's the first problem- "where it exists". If YOU are not prejudiced yourself, you will NEVER know where it exists! You will never see how life as a black person really is, so you can only postulate, never really know.

We all have our prejudices. For myself when I find myself thinking in a way that could fall along those lines I try to step back, re-evaluate, try find a cause. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but next time I hope I can head it off at the pass. Of course I can't 'know' what it's like to be black/asian or whatever anymore than the other way around.

I have been in situations where I have been the only white face in hundreds or even thousands and I have experienced those things to which you refer. As you know, racism and prejudice, is not an exlusively white phonemenon something which is all to often glossed over, here and elsewhere. Alone I can't fix that, what I can do is listen, learn and try to understand others views as best I can whether I agree with them or not. That's all anyone can do. If we all do it then it may be enough.

...As we've said many times, minorities don't have the power to oppress, and until they do, the majorities will never understand that the groups to which they belong abuse this power. Especially if they personally do not participate in such behavior.

You are right and I'm speaking generally here but surely 'turning the tables' would be a phyrric victory, it may feel good (for a while, maybe) but then no-one will have learned anything. Is black oppression of whites any less wrong?

Righting a wrong requires its eradication not a new owner. Oppression and racism are wrong, period. Racism and oppression in revenge while perhaps understandable would be equally wrong and the whole destructive cycle would simply repeat. I know you are talking about capability not intent but not everyone is so enlightened.

Try it. Paint your skin black one day and walk around. See how much it changes things to have shop owners follow you around expecting you to steal. Have white people talk down to you as if you were mentally challenged.

I've seen that done (both ways) and with the best will in the world the participant (however hard they tell themself otherwise) is 'looking' for bias and is thus more likely to perceive it where it may not actually exist, it's the requirement of the excercise and thus almost by definition renders such exercises 'tabloid entertainment'.

Those behaviours you refer to are not unique to any race or group and I have seen it both ways. If I were a shop owner and someone was acting like a thief you would be safe to assume I would watch them very closely, whatever their skin colour.

Go apply for a job, and after you squirm in your seat wondering if Big Man A is even listening to you, he responds with "Well, we could really use a few more blacks around here I guess". It makes you feel like shit, and it never goes away. THEN have some white guy on a message board tell you it's all in your head. That's fucking shit, and I'm sorry you don't know it

From personal experience:

Several years ago I needed a short term (6-9 months) developer on a project. Along with colleague and a rep from HR I interviewed 5 people. It shook out; 2 Woman one black one White and 3 men 2 Asian one white. Had I said something along the lines of Man A in the interview I would have sacked, pretty much on the spot.

I offered the post to the Black woman based on a combination of personality, availablilty and stated experience. Remember I needed to work closely with this person for some months an ability to get along was relevant.

This was a highly technical post and a lack of skills could not be compensated for by a enthusiasm or personality and it soon became clear that she had 'exaggerated' her resume and/or abilities and was simply out of her depth. I sent her on some training courses because she wanted to do a good job, I liked her and she otherwise did a great job.

After a few more weeks it was clear she didn't have the abilities needed (which she admitted openly when asked) and was covertly spending time on the phone to agencies looking for other work. I offered her another post as an alternative to termination, but she quit.

Next I heard she was suing the department for Constructive dismissal based primarily on racial discrimination, I was mortified. She lied on her resume, was borderline incompetent in those very skills for which she was hired, received £3000 of free training and turned down another post. She withdrew the action shortly after but it was a wake up call for several of us.

I am utterly convinced that I treated her fairly, and with respect as I would anyone else and I believe so did my colleagues. She may have perceived or experienced racism or she may have simply 'played the race card' (Lex's argument nothwithtanding) because it seemed like a sure fire winner. I don't know for sure, only she knows that and she said nothing to indicate such a problem before leaving.

Final question, if Shelby were black (and you drew attention to his colour) would your reaction to his comment been different, and if so why? I'm not trying to be 'clever' I'd genuinely like to know.

 

[B_barbarluna]

We all have our prejudices. For myself when I find myself thinking in a way that could fall along those lines I try to step back, re-evaluate, try find a cause. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but next time I hope I can head it off at the pass. Of course I can't 'know' what it's like to be black/asian or whatever anymore than the other way around.

I have been in situations where I have been the only white face in hundreds or even thousands and I have experienced those things to which you refer. As you know, racism and prejudice, is not an exlusively white phonemenon something which is all to often glossed over, here and elsewhere. Alone I can't fix that, what I can do is listen, learn and try to understand others views as best I can whether I agree with them or not. That's all anyone can do. If we all do it then it may be enough.


When you hire White Men, who prove to be unqualified is your inference that all White people must therefore be evaluated with stricter scrutiny so as to detect those that may not be truthful in their representation of themselves?


You are right and I'm speaking generally here but surely 'turning the tables' would be a phyrric victory, it may feel good (for a while, maybe) but then no-one will have learned anything. Is black oppression of whites any less wrong?

Righting a wrong requires its eradication not a new owner. Oppression and racism are wrong, period. Racism and oppression in revenge while perhaps understandable would be equally wrong and the whole destructive cycle would simply repeat. I know you are talking about capability not intent but not everyone is so enlightened.



I've seen that done (both ways) and with the best will in the world the participant (however hard they tell themself otherwise) is 'looking' for bias and is thus more likely to perceive it where it may not actually exist, it's the requirement of the excercise and thus almost by definition renders such exercises 'tabloid entertainment'.

Those behaviours you refer to are not unique to any race or group and I have seen it both ways. If I were a shop owner and someone was acting like a thief you would be safe to assume I would watch them very closely, whatever their skin colour.

Go apply for a job, and after you squirm in your seat wondering if Big Man A is even listening to you, he responds with "Well, we could really use a few more blacks around here I guess". It makes you feel like shit, and it never goes away. THEN have some white guy on a message board tell you it's all in your head. That's fucking shit, and I'm sorry you don't know it

From personal experience:

Several years ago I needed a short term (6-9 months) developer on a project. Along with colleague and a rep from HR I interviewed 5 people. It shook out; 2 Woman one black one White and 3 men 2 Asian one white. Had I said something along the lines of Man A in the interview I would have sacked, pretty much on the spot.

I offered the post to the Black woman based on a combination of personality, availablilty and stated experience. Remember I needed to work closely with this person for some months an ability to get along was relevant.

This was a highly technical post and a lack of skills could not be compensated for by a enthusiasm or personality and it soon became clear that she had 'exaggerated' her resume and/or abilities and was simply out of her depth. I sent her on some training courses because she wanted to do a good job, I liked her and she otherwise did a great job.

After a few more weeks it was clear she didn't have the abilities needed (which she admitted openly when asked) and was covertly spending time on the phone to agencies looking for other work. I offered her another post as an alternative to termination, but she quit.

Next I heard she was suing the department for Constructive dismissal based primarily on racial discrimination, I was mortified. She lied on her resume, was borderline incompetent in those very skills for which she was hired, received £3000 of free training and turned down another post. She withdrew the action shortly after but it was a wake up call for several of us.

I am utterly convinced that I treated her fairly, and with respect as I would anyone else and I believe so did my colleagues. She may have perceived or experienced racism or she may have simply 'played the race card' (Lex's argument nothwithtanding) because it seemed like a sure fire winner. I don't know for sure, only she knows that and she said nothing to indicate such a problem before leaving.

Final question, if Shelby were black (and you drew attention to his colour) would your reaction to his comment been different, and if so why? I'm not trying to be 'clever' I'd genuinely like to know.

 

[dong20]

When you hire White Men, who prove to be unqualified is your inference that all White people must therefore be evaluated with stricter scrutiny so as to detect those that may not be truthful in their representation of themselves?

Not at all, I stated my criteria; skills required for the job and (as a bonus but not an always an absolute requirement) a personality and attitude appropriate for the working environment and post.

The same critera apply to all candidates to the same degree. Obviously the more senior the role the more in depth the scrutiny and checks but I don't see what ethnicity has to do with it.

Others may apply other criteria and Mme Zora certainly highlighted one of these.

 

[Matthew]

Dong, it's great that you try to employ a "colorblind" approach to hiring questions, but that's far from a universal practice among employers. Employers do still discriminate by race, maybe more implicitly than explicitly these days for legal reasons. But it's widespread, from what I can see. And that discrimination inherently involves looking at one race more critically -- seeing faults and overlooking good qualities in one, while excusing the other -- like barbarluna was saying. It's good that you've had experiences that prove that it's not universal. But IMO, they're exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[dong20]

Dong, it's great that you try to employ a "colorblind" approach to hiring questions, but that's far from a universal practice among employers. Employers do still discriminate by race, maybe more implicitly than explicitly these days for legal reasons. But it's widespread, from what I can see. And that discrimination inherently involves looking at one race more critically -- seeing faults and overlooking good qualities in one, while excusing the other -- like barbarluna was saying. It's good that you've had experiences that prove that it's not universal. But IMO, they're exceptions that prove the rule.

We have legal constraints and guidelines etc but I agree that discrimination occurs and not just against minorities which is trying to solve the problem by punishing yourself and rejecting able candidates because there's a 'quota' to fill, that seems to me even more insidious than overt discrimination.

White, black, white, asian, white, black, white, black, white, asian...thats X% minorities, see our recruitment policy is non-discriminatory. Of course we may then treat those same people rather differently in the workplace but well they should be glad of the job (for which they may or not be qualified) shouldn't they?

I ask you who's fooling who here? Makes me mad. I believe a key part of any solution is education not legislation to give everyone the ability to compete on a level playing field but I accept you have to start somewhere.

 

[Matthew]

I think the discussion's got a little bit lost at this point. If we're talking about affirmative action, I generally support measures to remedy past and present discrimination. I do agree that AA does not attack the problem at its root, which causes what to me is the biggest knock against it -- it hasn't been all that successful. I agree that quotas are mechanical, but discrimination has to be counteracted somehow. And I agree that education is a very important arena in which to develop that counteraction.

But for me, the bottom line is that I see in my society an implicit system which tends white people toward more privilege across generations. And I know that it's not based solely on talent or merit. Of course it's not an absolute system, there are plenty of white people who are mistreated or suffer in various ways, and of course there is a middle class and a bit of wealth among communities of color in the US. And really, I do think race and class are very much intertwined in this whole question. But I don't believe the playing field is level, and people pay the price. And that's what makes me mad.

 

[dong20]

I agree it's most definately not a level playing field and while the fresh coat of paint on the tramlines and a dress code that AA represents is a start what's needed is an earth mover and a new set of rules.

I agree that's rather off topic...what else is new.

 

[madame_zora]

We all have our prejudices. For myself when I find myself thinking in a way that could fall along those lines I try to step back, re-evaluate, try find a cause. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but next time I hope I can head it off at the pass. Of course I can't 'know' what it's like to be black/asian or whatever anymore than the other way around.

I have been in situations where I have been the only white face in hundreds or even thousands and I have experienced those things to which you refer. As you know, racism and prejudice, is not an exlusively white phonemenon something which is all to often glossed over, here and elsewhere. Alone I can't fix that, what I can do is listen, learn and try to understand others views as best I can whether I agree with them or not. That's all anyone can do. If we all do it then it may be enough.

Dong, I know you know this wasn't directed at you, I don't see you as a prejudiced person at all. I think part of our perceptual differences, if they exist at all, is the difference in our environments. In the US, race is a big fucking deal. Outside of major cities, it is often the first criteria by which a person will be judged. I don't know if that's true of the UK, I always hope you guys have gotten a few more things sorted out than us n00bs.

Also, I never meant to infer that it was only white against black. Wherever a majority exists, there are those who will oppress a minority, and it is the same exact wrong! I agree that searching our own hearts for remnants of this behavior is the best way toward progress.

You are right and I'm speaking generally here but surely 'turning the tables' would be a phyrric victory, it may feel good (for a while, maybe) but then no-one will have learned anything. Is black oppression of whites any less wrong?

Righting a wrong requires its eradication not a new owner. Oppression and racism are wrong, period. Racism and oppression in revenge while perhaps understandable would be equally wrong and the whole destructive cycle would simply repeat. I know you are talking about capability not intent but not everyone is so enlightened.

If I said something to lead you to believe I wanted to turn the tables, I apologise for the confusion. Black oppression of whites, particularly in areas where they are the majority is exactly the same thing, and as far as I can tell it happens with pretty much the same frequency. I am not claiming that one race is superior to another or more blameless. I am only saying that nationally, white oppression of blacks is more prevalent, and historically significant. It wasn't Africans who enslaved Euros that we are experiencing a fallout from.

You make a good point about our lack of enlightenment. I agree with you that education is our only hope, and waiting for the really ugly ones to die off.

I've seen that done (both ways) and with the best will in the world the participant (however hard they tell themself otherwise) is 'looking' for bias and is thus more likely to perceive it where it may not actually exist, it's the requirement of the excercise and thus almost by definition renders such exercises 'tabloid entertainment'.

Those behaviours you refer to are not unique to any race or group and I have seen it both ways. If I were a shop owner and someone was acting like a thief you would be safe to assume I would watch them very closely, whatever their skin colour.

No, I completely understand that those things are not unique to one race. What I am saying is that here and now blacks being marginalised by whites is same shit different day in the majority of places, by the majority of people- therefore I see it as a more immediate problem. In order to correct any imbalance, there is a pendulum swing effect before the pendulum finally finds it's resting place in the middle. It's just time for the pendulum to swing the other way now, as society is forcing that to happen. This is all very normal and in keeping with the history of how human beings accept change.

No doubt there are black shop owners who watch the white punks closely as well. One can also not discount the possibility that a criminal might take special delight from stealing from someone of a race to which he does not belong. Both sides.

I am utterly convinced that I treated her fairly, and with respect as I would anyone else and I believe so did my colleagues. She may have perceived or experienced racism or she may have simply 'played the race card' (Lex's argument nothwithtanding) because it seemed like a sure fire winner. I don't know for sure, only she knows that and she said nothing to indicate such a problem before leaving.

I am utterly convinced that you gave her more than enough leeway. I would have fired her immediately when I discovered she lied on her resume about her knowledge. Now, I never cared if someone lied on their resume about something that didn't matter, like where they went to school or their gpa, but if it affected their ability to perform their job- that's a big problem, I'd have shitcanned her instantly.

She played the race card, flat out. That's bullshit, she was the one who was a liar, and that can be easily proven by her own admission. Inferring that you are a racist because she is incompetant is utter nonsense, and it is that very behavior that leads white people to assume all blacks are freeloading scum.
Actually, the black people who do that are not the majority, but they are the ones who make the news, as it were. I'm sorry you had that experience and I'm glad it didn't lead you to make untrue assumptions about the whole race.

Final question, if Shelby were black (and you drew attention to his colour) would your reaction to his comment been different, and if so why? I'm not trying to be 'clever' I'd genuinely like to know.

I've had the same convo with Dilznick, if that helps anything.

 

[dong20]

Dong, I know you know this wasn't directed at you, I don't see you as a prejudiced person at all. I think part of our perceptual differences, if they exist at all, is the difference in our environments. In the US, race is a big fucking deal. Outside of major cities, it is often the first criteria by which a person will be judged. I don't know if that's true of the UK, I always hope you guys have gotten a few more things sorted out than us n00bs.

I know it wasn't. I do think and hope race relations in the UK are less of an issue than they are in the US or lower profile which I accept is not the same thing. Economic refugees seem to be the current 'punchbag'. That said we are a million miles form a haven of racial equality. Race riots occur here as you know, there was documentary about the Bradford riots on TV today and that was only 20 years ago...

London is something of an anomaly I seldom hear any of my friends (of all ethinicities) citing racism as in the top 10 problems they encounter here, usually it's practical stuff like the cost of everything and the lack of affordable property..and so on. I don't know that the English are inherently more tolerant maybe we just a slightly different social imperative.

Also, I never meant to infer that it was only white against black. Wherever a majority exists, there are those who will oppress a minority, and it is the same exact wrong! I agree that searching our own hearts for remnants of this behavior is the best way toward progress.

I know, and I didn't read it that way either...it's just that it sometimes gets brushed under the carpet and I think 'whites' sometimes feel uncomfortable pointing out 'reverse racism' or 'positive discrimination' (which seems to me like a choice non sequitur) when we see it for fear of somehow causing offense out of some misplaced sense of 'guilt'. I'm not explaining that well....sorry. I think I alluded to this in Bronxys' thread.

If I said something to lead you to believe I wanted to turn the tables, I apologise for the confusion. Black oppression of whites, particularly in areas where they are the majority is exactly the same thing, and as far as I can tell it happens with pretty much the same frequency. I am not claiming that one race is superior to another or more blameless. I am only saying that nationally, white oppression of blacks is more prevalent, and historically significant.

No, you didn't and I should have put my last sentence first on this point(Capability does not imply intent) I tried to but the 5 min edit timout stopped me. To add to the US problems I was under the (false?) impression that there was also growing tension between 'Latino' (esp Black Latino) and African Americans but I get the sense that is more rooted in raw economics than any deeper prejudice but I'm open to correction.

You make a good point about our lack of enlightenment. I agree with you that education is our only hope, and waiting for the really ugly ones to die off.

I think education the keystone to solving most social problems but it must work hand in hand with a fundemental changes in human nature and society....and of course that's the long road paved with good intentions but as with AA you have start somewhere.

I think you are as enlightened as anyone I know. To me prejudice is a part of the human condition and while we can't always control our ingrained patterns of thought we can try and recognise them and thwart the actions they would otherwise invoke. Eventually new patterns and behaviours form and are passed on and as a species we move forward.

No, I completely understand that those things are not unique to one race. What I am saying is that here and now blacks being marginalised by whites is same shit different day in the majority of places, by the majority of people- therefore I see it as a more immediate problem.

Indeed, deal with the problem in hand with an eye on the future.

In order to correct any imbalance, there is a pendulum swing effect before the pendulum finally finds it's resting place in the middle. It's just time for the pendulum to swing the other way now, as society is forcing that to happen. This is all very normal and in keeping with the history of how human beings accept change..

It still horrifies me that such things as apartheid, segregation, lynchings, religious persecution etc happened with either my or my parents lifetime. But, it also encourages me that those same things are also considered repugnant and incredible within the same timescale. I know they always were to many but some were Government policy and a blind eye was too often turned to the rest. If we can change that perhaps there is hope for us. Damn, I must be feeling idealistic tonight.

Now, I never cared if someone lied on their resume about something that didn't matter, like where they went to school or their gpa, but if it affected their ability to perform their job- that's a big problem, I'd have shitcanned her instantly.

I'd go along with that, I expect a degree of fluff but if they get the job done and are otherwise persons of integrity it's of little consequence. But if you're writing cheques your body can't cash you're gonna get bounced, I was too soft but recruitment is such a hassle...:biggrin1:

I'm sorry you had that experience and I'm glad it didn't lead you to make untrue assumptions about the whole race.

Shit happens....FWIW I canned a white guy for broadly similar reasons, there are liars all over some just happen to be black.

I've had the same convo with Dilznick, if that helps anything.

I wasn't having a pop and I got the impression you were a tad pissed. I'll have read of your conversation with Dr D.

 

[madame_zora]

Dong, no worries, if I'm pissed, you'll KNOW it! Also, check out some of the shit Gottabigone and I went through about AA. I suck at searching, but if you can't find them, I'll try to help. Bear in mind if you read these conversations that these are guys I respect greatly. If you didn't know that, the tone of our conversations would be shocking- we tear each other's asses off sometimes. I'm pretty sure GBO and I ended up calling each other names and sulking off like nelly little bitches, it was great.

I don't thing sowrong will provide you with that kind of stimulation, but it sure is good for comedy! Keep him yapping, it's been making my day.