Political Hypothetical - Confederate Flag Is Banned

wallyj84

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In Germany it is illegal to show Nazi symbols and such. As I understand it, you're not even allowed to talk about the Nazis in a positive light and their crimes are not to be forgotten or whitewashed away, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this bit.

What if we did that with the Confederacy? All pro Confederate symbols and flags would be banned from public areas and the "lost cause" myth would be banned in history classes across the nation.

Ignoring whether or not this is constitutional, how would it affect race relations in the US? Would it be a negative or a positive?
 
D

deleted15807

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The conquering allies forced Germany to rid itself of Nazi images and then the Germans enshrined that into law themselves as a reminder of their past and a vow to never repeat it. American hate has never had that reckoning. Today if you go to Germany and use any of the Nazi symbols or flags you may get into an immediate altercation.

Not so the Confederate battle flag, which was rehabilitated by the Ku Klux Klan in the early 20th century. It found its way into cemeteries, flag stands and even as part of some official state flags. The flag itself would fly over statehouses in several former Confederate states.

How Germany dealt with its symbols of hate
It's a great idea to ban it though it will take another Civil War to do it.
 
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TexanStar

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In Germany it is illegal to show Nazi symbols and such. As I understand it, you're not even allowed to talk about the Nazis in a positive light and their crimes are not to be forgotten or whitewashed away, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this bit.

What if we did that with the Confederacy? All pro Confederate symbols and flags would be banned from public areas and the "lost cause" myth would be banned in history classes across the nation.

Ignoring whether or not this is constitutional, how would it affect race relations in the US? Would it be a negative or a positive?

Positive.

Fuck the confederacy and the racists who revere it.

As you said though, not constitutional, etc.
 
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keenobserver

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I think it could have worked immediately after the civil war. The banning of confederate symbols, I mean.

What about the lost cause myth? Could we at least stop that?

It will take several generations to erase the damage from that. It won't ever completely fade, but change is an inch at a time proposition.
 
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keenobserver

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I assume you're talking about the lost cause myth.

It would definitely take generations, but the first step would be getting it out of school textbooks.

Again, good luck with that. Why? Texas controls pretty much what goes into school textbooks. The publishers submit their books, the Texas school board edits it, take out what it doesn't like, threatens to cancel orders if things don't fit their narrative. Texas buys more books than any other entity - they have clout.

Frankly I have not seen it in a high school text book - ever. I know It wasn't in mine in the late 60's and early 70's. In college it was discussed as a propaganda perpetuated by the South but it wasn't taught as true. It is perpetuated in art, statues and grandparents pushing the family tree bullshit. No one wants to see their ancestors as being pro-slavery. I honestly think the wacko states rights clowns are only the way they are because they don't like reality undermining what their grandparents told them. Seriously. The lessons of childhood are the hardest to correct.
 
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DiamondJoe

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In Germany it is illegal to show Nazi symbols and such. As I understand it, you're not even allowed to talk about the Nazis in a positive light and their crimes are not to be forgotten or whitewashed away, someone correct me if I'm wrong on this bit.

You are broadly correct about German law, which doesn't explicitly name the swastika although court cases over the years have established which symbols of hate should be banned and in what context.

This law was enacted in response to "denazification" that took place in Germany & Austria following WWII. It is probably worth nothing, however, that the programme was not a success and was abandoned in the early '50s as Allied forces of occupation in Germany found it more expedient to use ex-Nazis in the fight against communism.

Oddly, Japan was never forced to confront its crimes, had no mass trials, expressions of collective guilt &c &c, again due to Cold War expediences.

To this day, Japanese history classes teach from the stone age through the Medieval period right up to 1900... and then stops. The empire, the invasion of China, WWII and the atomic bombs never figure in schools, and there is a strong nationalist element in Japanese society that denies its war crimes, eg. the "Rape on Nanking."
 

6inchcock

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Oddly, Japan was never forced to confront its crimes, had no mass trials, expressions of collective guilt &c &c, again due to Cold War expediences.

To this day, Japanese history classes teach from the stone age through the Medieval period right up to 1900... and then stops. The empire, the invasion of China, WWII and the atomic bombs never figure in schools, and there is a strong nationalist element in Japanese society that denies its war crimes, eg. the "Rape on Nanking."

Yes but in most of the Asian countries that were on the receiving end of Japanese brutality (primarily China and the Korea's) it is still a very sore subject, to the point of lawsuits, litigation, boycotts, breaking of agreements, etc.

While it never received the same level of attention as the Nuremberg Trials the Japanese Trials appear to have been decentralized outside of the Tokyo Trials which were a US led one pony show; however the trials never made full accounting to the remainder of many from public opinion and still appears to be a diplomatic sore point for all.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/japanese-war-crimes-trial-begins
 

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I would be curious to see the demographic broken out more. I know from my experiences and from still working with military the opinions vary wildly.

I think overwhelmingly there is a large group that supports the banning of the flags and the renaming of the posts, but there would be a surprising large number of senior leaders that would not support the renaming and in my opinion would turn a blind eye to the flag banning if they could get away with it.

There are multiple generations of senior leaders that revered the Confederate Generals and quoted (or misquoted) Nathan Bedford Forrest in words as well written doctrine (usually Field Manuals) who was probably the most glaringly obvious that should not have been used as a model for anything.

If the Airborne association and all of the other associated alumni throws it's weight behind the renaming of Bragg, the rest will follow. I expect the renaming of Bragg will be the hardest fight.
 

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I would be curious to see the demographic broken out more. I know from my experiences and from still working with military the opinions vary wildly.

I think overwhelmingly there is a large group that supports the banning of the flags and the renaming of the posts, but there would be a surprising large number of senior leaders that would not support the renaming and in my opinion would turn a blind eye to the flag banning if they could get away with it.

There are multiple generations of senior leaders that revered the Confederate Generals and quoted (or misquoted) Nathan Bedford Forrest in words as well written doctrine (usually Field Manuals) who was probably the most glaringly obvious that should not have been used as a model for anything.

If the Airborne association and all of the other associated alumni throws it's weight behind the renaming of Bragg, the rest will follow. I expect the renaming of Bragg will be the hardest fight.
Military’s top officer is open to renaming Army posts honoring Confederate generals
Despite clear opposition from President Donald Trump, the Joint Chiefs chairman on Wednesday expressed support for the idea of renaming 10 Army posts named for Confederate generals.
During testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, Army Gen. Mark Milley took a hard line against the losing side of the Civil War, and left open the discussion for removing symbols from the armed forces that would glorify it.


“I personally think that the original decisions to name those bases after Confederate generals … those were political decisions …100 years ago,” he said. “And they’re gong to be political decisions today.”

Milley suggested a commission be created to look into renaming the posts.
Military’s top officer is open to renaming Army posts honoring Confederate generals
 
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6inchcock

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Military’s top officer is open to renaming Army posts honoring Confederate generals
Despite clear opposition from President Donald Trump, the Joint Chiefs chairman on Wednesday expressed support for the idea of renaming 10 Army posts named for Confederate generals.
During testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, Army Gen. Mark Milley took a hard line against the losing side of the Civil War, and left open the discussion for removing symbols from the armed forces that would glorify it.


“I personally think that the original decisions to name those bases after Confederate generals … those were political decisions …100 years ago,” he said. “And they’re gong to be political decisions today.”

Milley suggested a commission be created to look into renaming the posts.
Military’s top officer is open to renaming Army posts honoring Confederate generals

This is the same Milley that was caught racing outside in his uniform during the White House to Church-Demonstration fiasco and later had to eat crow correct?

This is from the same generation of senior leaders that burned soldiers left and right over petty shit and then now let their sleazy fucking peers retire under assorted clouds of hypocrisy.

If Milley wanted to take a stand and show some brass balls he would done the right thing and stepped down last month.
 
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