(pre) Congratulations, Senator-elect Jack Conway, D-KY

B_VinylBoy

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Posts
10,363
Media
0
Likes
68
Points
123
Location
Boston, MA / New York, NY
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
No. I'm glad she did not smack him down. She rightly allowed Paul to express his views, which did not disappoint me. I was wondering if Rand Paul's views on the civil rights issue differed from his father's and now know the truth.

The joys of the First Amendment, eh? :biggrin1:
Freedom of speech... and the freedom to make a complete imbecile of oneself by saying the wrong things. Rand Paul will forever regret making those comments.

It's shameful that in this day and age Rand Paul felt private businesses should be permitted to racially discriminate against their patrons.

IMO, once a private business starts to pander for public money then all of this talk about it being private goes completely out the window. At that point, they need to be forced to adhere to the same standards as any other public establishment, which includes not discriminating against their patrons based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc. Private businesses should be allowed to be as selective as they want, as long as they remain 100% private. That means, nobody should see their ads in publicly available periodicals, websites or anything that the general public can view among other things. They can't be private just when it comes to issues surrounding their financial interests.
 
Last edited:

B_talltpaguy

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Posts
2,331
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Rand Paul: Radical Ayn Rand rookie

The Chicago Tribune
Clarence Page
May 23, 2010


I was a little disappointed to hear that Rand Paul was not named after Ayn Rand. It would have made sense for his famously libertarian dad, Republican U.S. Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, to name young Rand after the famous ultralibertarian author. It would also be ironic, now that victory in Kentucky's Republican Senate primary has transformed young Rand's Randian libertarianism from a guiding light into a stumbling block.

But running for public office, as Rand-fan Rand Paul is learning, is the right time to put aside childish things to reconcile one's ideology with other people's reality.

Paul failed to pull that off when, a day after clobbering the GOP-endorsed candidate, Paul let himself muse on MSNBC's " Rachel Maddow Show" about the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the rights of businesspeople to discriminate. Paul repeatedly declared his support for the intent of the law, but he could not bring himself to support a key provision in the law.

Paul's amateurism showed itself again Friday morning. As pressure mounted on the Obama administration to take charge of BP's oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, Paul on ABC's "Good Morning America" decried the administration's attitude as "I'll put my boot heel on the throat of BP" and said the administration "sounds really un-American" in its "criticisms of businesses."

With many Americans clamoring for the White House to move aggressively to stop the thousands of barrels of oil gushing into the Gulf, one might think this was not the best time for an aspiring political candidate to rush to the defense of the oil company.


Click to read full article
 

TurkeyWithaSunburn

Legendary Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Posts
3,589
Media
25
Likes
1,224
Points
608
Sexuality
99% Gay, 1% Straight
Gender
Male
Thread about Rand Paul magically becomes a platform for more anti-Obama/anti-Democrat crusades. :rofl: gotta love it :up:

Rand Paul carries name recognition in the form of his father. I'm sure there are a lot of people who voted for him purely because his father is well known, without even looking into what he believes.

Primary elections are a joke. Since I believe (and may be wrong) that you can only vote in the primary, in most states, if you are registered for that party. With about 1/3 of people being independents their voice isn't heard until general election day. Primaries are to gear up "the base". Turnout in KY was 33%. Also registered democrats outnumber republicans by 600,000.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,675
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Obama now has more and more people openly challenging him in the media deminishing his power: Rand Paul, Governor of Arkansas, Sarah Palin.

Yes, with these intellectual heavyweights ready to take him on, I bet he's just quaking in his electoral boots.
 

slurper_la

Superior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Posts
5,865
Media
9
Likes
3,699
Points
333
Location
Los Angeles (California, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male

Bbucko

Cherished Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Posts
7,232
Media
8
Likes
325
Points
208
Location
Sunny SoFla
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Yes, with these intellectual heavyweights ready to take him on, I bet he's just quaking in his electoral boots.

Not having much reason to concern myself with Arkansas politics, I did a little research this afternoon on its governor, seeing as though he is named in the same sentence as Rand Paul and Sarah Palin.

First of all, he has a name: it's Mike Beebe. Second of all, he's a Blue Dog Democrat, and a very popular one at that. Third: he is not a Teabagger at all, though as Governor of such a conservative state he's not gonna come out and call them retards.

He was interviewed by Politico earlier this year. His opinion regarding Teabaggery is here, his opinion regarding Health Care Reform is here. Anyone trying to connect him to the Tea Party, Libertarianism or Palinist populism has obviously never bothered to do any research whatsoever; there are no connections to be made.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,675
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
Not having much reason to concern myself with Arkansas politics, I did a little research this afternoon on its governor, seeing as though he is named in the same sentence as Rand Paul and Sarah Palin.

First of all, he has a name: it's Mike Beebe. Second of all, he's a Blue Dog Democrat, and a very popular one at that. Third: he is not a Teabagger at all, though as Governor of such a conservative state he's not gonna come out and call them retards.

He was interviewed by Politico earlier this year. His opinion regarding Teabaggery is here, his opinion regarding Health Care Reform is here. Anyone trying to connect him to the Tea Party, Libertarianism or Palinist populism has obviously never bothered to do any research whatsoever; there are no connections to be made.

Well :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: lumped a southern governor in with Palin and Paul, so I figured he had to be a whack-job. Thanks for the correct info. Take the Hucka out of Mike Huckabee and you get Mike Beebe. kinda weird.

Trinity, you are confused.
 

Bbucko

Cherished Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Posts
7,232
Media
8
Likes
325
Points
208
Location
Sunny SoFla
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
Well :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: lumped a southern governor in with Palin and Paul, so I figured he had to be a whack-job. Thanks for the correct info. Take the Hucka out of Mike Huckabee and you get Mike Beebe. kinda weird.

I honestly would have never seen Trinity's post if you hadn't quoted it, as that member has been on my ignore list forever after a seemingly endless series of circular, pointless "discussions". But I knew something was amiss when no name was proffered, just an office unlikely to go unchallenged around here.

Huckabee's hardly a Teabagger, either; though his "social conservative" credentials are impeccable, he's seen by most Republicans as a "bleeding-heart conservative" and a champion of Big Government. If you could surgically remove his religiosity you'd find him much closer to Bill Clinton than Rand Paul, probably somewhere to Clinton's left.

Trinity, you are confused.

Is that the word we're using this week?
 

HazelGod

Sexy Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Posts
7,154
Media
1
Likes
30
Points
183
Location
The Other Side of the Pillow
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
What exactly is the problem with Rand's remarks on the notion of private businesses to discriminate on any basis of their choosing? I really don't see where it's any of the government's business to tell private owners who they can and cannot conduct commerce with.

The notion isn't all that shocking, especially considering the SCOTUS decision in favor of the Boy Scouts of America's right as a private organization to do exactly the same thing.
 

SilverTrain

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Posts
4,623
Media
82
Likes
1,312
Points
333
Location
USA
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
What exactly is the problem with Rand's remarks on the notion of private businesses to discriminate on any basis of their choosing? I really don't see where it's any of the government's business to tell private owners who they can and cannot conduct commerce with.

The notion isn't all that shocking, especially considering the SCOTUS decision in favor of the Boy Scouts of America's right as a private organization to do exactly the same thing.

Pining for some "Colored" water fountains?

Wow.
 

slurper_la

Superior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Posts
5,865
Media
9
Likes
3,699
Points
333
Location
Los Angeles (California, United States)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
What exactly is the problem with Rand's remarks on the notion of private businesses to discriminate on any basis of their choosing? I really don't see where it's any of the government's business to tell private owners who they can and cannot conduct commerce with.

The notion isn't all that shocking, especially considering the SCOTUS decision in favor of the Boy Scouts of America's right as a private organization to do exactly the same thing.

Well let me ask you a question.

Why are you OK with the notion of the owner of a restaurant in your town refusing to serve food to black people?

And pleasae do not further attempt to define the argument with the SCOTUS decision regarding the BSA because sexuality is NOT part of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
 

B_VinylBoy

Sexy Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Posts
10,363
Media
0
Likes
68
Points
123
Location
Boston, MA / New York, NY
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
What exactly is the problem with Rand's remarks on the notion of private businesses to discriminate on any basis of their choosing? I really don't see where it's any of the government's business to tell private owners who they can and cannot conduct commerce with.


I don't think there would be a problem if these private businesses were really "private" to begin with. But they pander to the general public just like every other public establishment, if not more.

Private corporations shouldn't be allowed to advertise and promote their services as if they're open to everyone, then do the exact opposite behind closed doors. If they want a club or business that chooses to exclude anyone based on race, sexual preference, religion or whatever prejudice, then they should be forced to admit it every time they publicly present and/or advertise themselves. Otherwise, they should be required to adhere to public standards when they're after public revenues like everyone else.

Of course, most of these companies would never want to go on record and say that they don't want Blacks, Latinos, Whites, Jews, Muslims or whatever to give them their business since they know what kind of negative backlash they would experience from certain sectors of society if they did. Yet, they still want their money.
 

HazelGod

Sexy Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Posts
7,154
Media
1
Likes
30
Points
183
Location
The Other Side of the Pillow
Sexuality
99% Straight, 1% Gay
Gender
Male
Pining for some "Colored" water fountains?
Wow.
I don't follow the logic of your implication. You're alluding to the "separate but equal" doctrine of public services and facilities during the Jim Crow era...the focus of the discussion here is on the right of a private business owner to refuse service at his discretion. In any case, I'm not certain it's possible to pine for something that never existed during your lifetime. :tongue:

Why are you OK with the notion of the owner of a restaurant in your town refusing to serve food to black people?
It's pretty simple, really. It's his business. He put up the capital, he invests the labor, he makes the calls on how it gets run.

Personally, I'd refuse to patronize his business, as I don't see eye-to-eye with people who harbor such prejudices...as is my right as a citizen and consumer. I just don't see where the government has any place to tell him that he cannot operate his business that way if he chooses.


slurper_la said:
And pleasae do not further attempt to define the argument with the SCOTUS decision regarding the BSA because sexuality is NOT part of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

I'll draw any comparisons and parallels I feel are reasonably appropriate. Racial origin and sexual orientation are both inherent qualities human being are born with...if your sole rationale for tolerating discrimination based on the one but not the other is because it was specifically enumerated in the text of a law, then I sincerely hope you do so with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Otherwise, I'm laughing at you rather than with you.



I don't think there would be a problem if these private businesses were really "private" to begin with.
I believe it's simple enough to establish which operations are truly private.
 

B_talltpaguy

Experimental Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Posts
2,331
Media
0
Likes
17
Points
123
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
It's pretty simple, really. It's his business. He put up the capital, he invests the labor, he makes the calls on how it gets run.

Personally, I'd refuse to patronize his business, as I don't see eye-to-eye with people who harbor such prejudices...as is my right as a citizen and consumer. I just don't see where the government has any place to tell him that he cannot operate his business that way if he chooses.
Obviously, you've never started and run a business that serves the public.
 

vince

Legendary Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Posts
8,271
Media
1
Likes
1,675
Points
333
Location
Canada
Sexuality
69% Straight, 31% Gay
Gender
Male
It's pretty simple, really. It's his business. He put up the capital, he invests the labor, he makes the calls on how it gets run.

Personally, I'd refuse to patronize his business, as I don't see eye-to-eye with people who harbor such prejudices...as is my right as a citizen and consumer. I just don't see where the government has any place to tell him that he cannot operate his business that way if he chooses.



I believe it's simple enough to establish which operations are truly private.
Private businesses operate in the public sphere. They depend on government services such as roads, water and sewer systems, and police protection. If a business owner wants to pay the full retail cost (what it really costs to have his food inspected for safety, or to have a fire extinguished), for those services rather than the subsidized, tax supported wholesale cost, then perhaps we could start to call it a "private business". They use public tender as a means of exchange as well.

Where do you draw the line? Are lunch counters and a hardware stores more private than Sears? They are both likely to be incorporated under the same laws. Should Sears have the right to discriminate based on someone's sexual orientation or race or other physical trait? What about Comcast? Is it private enough to qualify for the right to refuse to serve whoever it wants?

There's a lack of understanding in Paul's argument that freedom in society is not absolute. There are competing freedoms and rights that the law arbitrates between. Does liberty trump equality?

Is the freedom to participate in a local economy and community as an employee and consumer a lesser freedom than the right to actively discriminate?

As an aside, if he is such a Libertarian, how do the tea partiers feel about his views on foreign policy, gay marriage, legalized drugs, prostitution, euthanasia etc.?
 

SilverTrain

Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Posts
4,623
Media
82
Likes
1,312
Points
333
Location
USA
Sexuality
No Response
Gender
Male
You're alluding to the "separate but equal" doctrine of public services and facilities during the Jim Crow era...the focus of the discussion here is on the right of a private business owner to refuse service at his discretion.


...if your sole rationale for tolerating discrimination based on the one but not the other is because it was specifically enumerated in the text of a law, then I sincerely hope you do so with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Otherwise, I'm laughing at you rather than with you.


Hmmmmm.........
 
Last edited:
D

deleted15807

Guest
It's pretty simple, really. It's his business. He put up the capital, he invests the labor, he makes the calls on how it gets run.

Personally, I'd refuse to patronize his business, as I don't see eye-to-eye with people who harbor such prejudices...as is my right as a citizen and consumer. I just don't see where the government has any place to tell him that he cannot operate his business that way if he chooses.


If that's the case there is zero reason to believe in 2010 it would not be 1950 all over again, a segregated country. And the myriad of other laws, rules and regulations which of those would he be free to disgard as government interference?
 

Bbucko

Cherished Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Posts
7,232
Media
8
Likes
325
Points
208
Location
Sunny SoFla
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
I believe it's simple enough to establish which operations are truly private.

That's the crux of this whole thing, really.

Two of the best examples I can think of are so far apart that they wind up coming back together again: country clubs and gay bathhouses.

It's been established many times that a country club can openly discriminate as regards who can and who cannot be accepted for membership, with any number of racial/ethnic minorities as well as gender being considered acceptable grounds for criteria either for acceptance or refusal.

Though much less likely to exclude potential membership based on racial/ethnic characteristics, it's clear that gay bathhouses obviously exclude women from any consideration of membership, and for very good reason.

In each case, annual membership dues are a deciding issue in how such establishments can be labeled private. And this follows through even so far as to whom a member can bring in as a guest.

There is also the issue of dress codes, where fully-public establishments can discriminate as to who may enter (whether it be the entire club or just restrictions to certain areas). This is pretty much universally recognized as valid, though it's not only highly discriminatory but also at the subjective whims of whoever is deciding to what extent one can pass or fail, gaining admittance or not. Try getting a table at a Morgan's steak house in a bathing suit and flip flops sometime.

Then there's the issue of condo and co-op boards (especially in Manhattan, but everywhere, really). Many are notoriously tough as regards who will and who will not be considered eligible for consideration for the possibility of purchasing and/or leasing a home in their domain: show business types being the most publicized of those refused.

On the flip side of this are zoning restrictions that regulate everything from density and minimum-sized lot restrictions (1/2 acre or larger, for instance) to style of home built in privately-developed, gated-community type areas as well as more open, more "public" real estate schemes.

There's at least one town in Massachusetts (Hingham), for instance, which mandates only white Christmas lights be used: nothing blinking and no colors. I've always thought of this as an example of absurd snobbery but hardly the oppressive boot heel of a police state.

Historical districts are also notorious for the expensive and time-consuming restrictions on everything from replacement windows to the color you can paint your front door. Anyone wishing to live or operate a business in one knows going in that the rules are narrow and strictly enforced.

And, of course, except for Hyannis, no chain-stores or restaurants are allowed on Cape Cod. This might seem like an odious restriction to free-enterprise marketing, but it has succeeded in making the Cape one of the most unique (and treasured) spots in the entire US.

None of this is really all that controversial. It's all part of real life and is (in my opinion) completely acceptable exceptions to complete accessibility of everyone to anywhere as well as beneficent governmental oversight in an attempt to maintain the unique charms of certain places.
 

Bbucko

Cherished Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2006
Posts
7,232
Media
8
Likes
325
Points
208
Location
Sunny SoFla
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
As an aside, if he is such a Libertarian, how do the tea partiers feel about his views on foreign policy, gay marriage, legalized drugs, prostitution, euthanasia etc.?

Paul's a "cafeteria Libertarian", picking and choosing policy stances that are tailored perfectly to the teabaggers: Wikipedia has a nice outline that goes into this in depth.